Do the early Tacomas deserve their reputation?

[Arkansas_SR5]

I’ve got a 96 that is currently in need of its third 3.4 V6 at “only” 250,000 miles after originally being replaced in early 2020. The driveshaft also recently gave out, along with the dripping steering rack and mysteriously disappearing brake fluid.

I also had a 98 with the 2.7 that had a cracked exhaust manifold which luckily in my case didn’t lead to a burnt valve. But I did eventually find a hole in the frame - it looked clean, but at the time I was unaware of their propensity to rot from the inside out even in relatively mild conditions.

Yes, I know these are typical things that come up on older cars, but they still seem at odds with their “bulletproof” reputation. I talk to people about whether it’s worth it to throw another 5VZ in my truck, and they tell me “those are always worth fixing.” I’m left wondering why they’re any more “worth it” than any other old truck, however.

I’m beginning to think “old Toyotas run forever” just means that fanboys are so infatuated with them being so reliable that they dunk thousands of dollars into their clapped out jalopies in order to make them reliable, regularly replacing the engines and everything around them when they shit the bed. And with Toyota, everything counts as maintenance, up to basically rebuilding the whole vehicle.

Marketplace is chock full of Toyota V6s, and the forums are full of accounts of burnt valves, cracked heads, and of course the infamous tension loaded ball joints that literally cause the wheels to fall off when they fail (see: Toyota LBJ Failure Support Group on Facebook).

And this particular generation of IFS is piss weak when tested on truly technical trails - put on tires bigger than 33s, especially when used with a front locker, and they will snap CVs and third members like candy. See post 26 and onward on this thread: Is a Land Cruiser really better off-road than a Tacoma? My experience says the opposite...

Before all the Toyota cultists come after me, I’ve had good experiences with some Toyotas, like a 1996 Camry wagon and 97 Land Cruiser, along with a 13 Avalon. But for me, the quality and reliability wasn’t there with the early Tacomas. At least they’re not any less crappy than any other truck of that vintage; in fact, most OEMs made a pretty decent drivetrain in the 90s, even Dodge. In fact, there’s plenty of Big 3 domestic trucks from the 2000s and earlier still putting in work in fairly brutal conditions on American farms, racking up the miles without all the fanfare of Toyota.

I guess I’m just curious where all the hype comes from. Maybe it’s the sleek good looks, or the reputation Toyota built by offering a higher-quality product in the 1980s, which was a low bar set by GM and the other domestics at the time.

Anyway, go ahead and flame and downvote if you want. I’m just a bit frustrated from having wasted so much money after buying into all the internet hype instead of digging deeper into what all can go wrong on these trucks. Oh well, I have no one to blame but myself. Regardless, I think I’ve owned my last Tacoma.

 

[smritte]

Regardless of internet hype, that thing was worn out 100k ago. You also cant mod a vehicle then say it doesn't hold up to...... I've spent decades in the industry and just as long modifying/racing vehicles. I don't look at the "IFS" or "solid axle". I look at axle spline and diff size then say "it will hold up to these gears and these tires" "or not". I also know the strengths and weakness of most of the vehicles we love to mod. I don't care who made the engine, the seals are pretty much the same. That means they all start leaking about the same time. No magic with power steering pumps (sorry ford) same with gear box's and steering racks. Again, I look at the size of the part and determine what it can do. There's a video of a new Tacoma with 37's snapping his steering in the rocks. The remarks are "I thought they were strong" Uhhh..... Look at the size of the steering. Not designed for that. If you want to hard wheel that truck, lift and tires wont cut it. Stronger steering, bigger diffs and axles to start.

My cruiser engine, cylinders were coated with niklasil. 200k rebuild and not only was there no taper but the cross hatch was still there. Block wise, there's little out there to compare strength wise. But, not designed for commuting even though people do.
Toyota trucks for their class have always gone overkill with their trans and brakes. That doesn't mean they are any better offroad. I have close to 30k in a 96 Cruiser. 230k miles what's not new is heavily modded. I'm also running 33" tires. My expectations are met but I wont leave it stock and drive it the way I do. If I want to go to 37's, i need stronger parts and more mods. People ask my opinions and then say "I'm not racing it in Baja". No your not, if you were, your about $100k short on the build.

I could find fault with every manufacture out there but when a Toyota doesn't last 1m miles, people are disappointed. I wont go on a rant comparing Jeep or Ford or GM.

Bottom line is, newer generation vehicles are better. I commonly discourage people from buying older unless they know exactly what their doing.

 

[Arkansas_SR5]

Regardless of internet hype, that thing was worn out 100k ago. You also cant mod a vehicle then say it doesn't hold up to...... I've spent decades in the industry and just as long modifying/racing vehicles. I don't look at the "IFS" or "solid axle". I look at axle spline and diff size then say "it will hold up to these gears and these tires" "or not". I also know the strengths and weakness of most of the vehicles we love to mod. I don't care who made the engine, the seals are pretty much the same. That means they all start leaking about the same time. No magic with power steering pumps (sorry ford) same with gear box's and steering racks. Again, I look at the size of the part and determine what it can do. There's a video of a new Tacoma with 37's snapping his steering in the rocks. The remarks are "I thought they were strong" Uhhh..... Look at the size of the steering. Not designed for that. If you want to hard wheel that truck, lift and tires wont cut it. Stronger steering, bigger diffs and axles to start.

My cruiser engine, cylinders were coated with niklasil. 200k rebuild and not only was there no taper but the cross hatch was still there. Block wise, there's little out there to compare strength wise. But, not designed for commuting even though people do.
Toyota trucks for their class have always gone overkill with their trans and brakes. That doesn't mean they are any better offroad. I have close to 30k in a 96 Cruiser. 230k miles what's not new is heavily modded. I'm also running 33" tires. My expectations are met but I wont leave it stock and drive it the way I do. If I want to go to 37's, i need stronger parts and more mods. People ask my opinions and then say "I'm not racing it in Baja". No your not, if you were, your about $100k short on the build.

I could find fault with every manufacture out there but when a Toyota doesn't last 1m miles, people are disappointed. I wont go on a rant comparing Jeep or Ford or GM.

Bottom line is, newer generation vehicles are better. I commonly discourage people from buying older unless they know exactly what their doing.

Newer is better to a point, maybe. Look at the disastrous engine failures with the new 3.4 V6 TTs in the newer GXs. And all the emissions failures on the newer diesels.

 

[rgallant]

I think the problem is people forget these things are old, your 96 is pushing 30 years, my Land Rover Discovery II is at 20. I was told how terrible they are (LR) and how they are giant money pits and to buy a Toyota. As noted by @smritte look after them do not just throw a ton of stuff on them and expect them to be perfect and not break.

Other than a failed head gasket due a bad job done by a previous owner my LR has been good to me, have I had parts fail sure but nothing terrible and nothing that left me stranded.

As to Toyota's or any other vehicle, if they last when looked after then they are alright, if they last when they are ignored then they are good.

 

[smritte]

Newer is better to a point, maybe

Obviously you haven't noted the other manufactures. Technology evolves. Compare American manufactures to Japanese. The American industry will have a failed product and wont fix it until that body design is done or the government forces them. At that point its only a band aid fix. The Japanese , especially Toyota will own it instantly and attempt to permanently remedy it. FYI the expected life span of a vehicle is 4-5 years. This is from a Manufacture stand point. Its not written but you can tell by reading subtle hints in shop manuals and manufacturing techniques. Why do you thing the "lease" program was started?

How do I know this? 25 years working for the American industry and following the Japanese. 20 years working as a trainer. I currently work as a trainer for Toyota and am privy to corporate info. No vehicle is flawless. I can point fingers at diffrent flaws throughout the industry. The American industry doesn't get anywhere near the press they should for their failures let alone the lack of customer service.

This is not me going on a rant due to being some kind of "Fan Boy" this is decades of research and learning how things work. Seeing failures and trying to figure out why. A common saying technicians have is "why did they build it like that?" Especially when you see known failed technology.

I could spend hours listing the unreported failures across the American car lines and the few failures in the Japanese. By the way, anyone who worked anywhere near as long as I did for the American industry remembers the American workers sabotaging the vehicle's to "get back at the man". That never happened in any other industry other than ours. I cant comment on European because I never tracked them.

Dont forget to look at oil clearance specs older vs newer. in the past you ran 30wt oil due to bearing clearances of the engines. Now you run 0/something. The American industry ran good metals in their "special performance" vehicle's. High nickel and forged components were standard in most Japanese. Today engines are more precise with better metal. Transmissions are geared better.

Its OK to be mad at your 30 year old vehicle. Just understand, its long worn out.

 

[smritte]

I forgot a main point. The 80's vehicles were a disaster. The 90s were not much better but, in the 90s, the American and Japanese industry had to evolve to a "commuter vehicle" market. Emission control and fuel milage standards were getting out of hand with the industry needing to detune vehicles. Your V6 is what Toyota did. The Industry put out engines designed to get better economy, drive well on highways and meet emission standards. The 4cyl motors were way better but didn't drive down the freeway well enough to satisfy consumers. Meanwhile The American industry just made 1950's era engines meet emission standards.
One other point. Some world market engines were forced to use "American Compliant" gaskets. These didn't hold up to high milage. Today all these things have evolved.

When we talk about new vs old. There's that to consider.

 

[MidOH]

The good Toyota rep comes from the 4cyl trucks with manual transmissions.

 

[smritte]

22R.
enough said.

 

[Offroadnutz]

The 3VZE motor is also excellent in my experience. My 88 4runner had 312000 on the original untouched engine before any issues arose. And this happened just last year.
The transmission went over 200K before needing rebuilding.

Driving habits play a large role too. Do you drive it like you stole it, or do you drive conservatively?

 

[Arkansas_SR5]

I

The 3VZE motor is also excellent in my experience. My 88 4runner had 312000 on the original untouched engine before any issues arose. And this happened just last year.
The transmission went over 200K before needing rebuilding.

Driving habits play a large role too. Do you drive it like you stole it, or do you drive conservatively?

I rarely had it over 3k RPMs.

The good Toyota rep comes from the 4cyl trucks with manual transmissions.

Maybe the original 20Rs. The later ones loved to eat timing chains every 100k and burn valves.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Obviously you haven't noted the other manufactures. Technology evolves. Compare American manufactures to Japanese. The American industry will have a failed product and wont fix it until that body design is done or the government forces them. At that point its only a band aid fix. The Japanese , especially Toyota will own it instantly and attempt to permanently remedy it. FYI the expected life span of a vehicle is 4-5 years. This is from a Manufacture stand point. Its not written but you can tell by reading subtle hints in shop manuals and manufacturing techniques. Why do you thing the "lease" program was started?

How do I know this? 25 years working for the American industry and following the Japanese. 20 years working as a trainer. I currently work as a trainer for Toyota and am privy to corporate info. No vehicle is flawless. I can point fingers at diffrent flaws throughout the industry. The American industry doesn't get anywhere near the press they should for their failures let alone the lack of customer service.

This is not me going on a rant due to being some kind of "Fan Boy" this is decades of research and learning how things work. Seeing failures and trying to figure out why. A common saying technicians have is "why did they build it like that?" Especially when you see known failed technology.

I could spend hours listing the unreported failures across the American car lines and the few failures in the Japanese. By the way, anyone who worked anywhere near as long as I did for the American industry remembers the American workers sabotaging the vehicle's to "get back at the man". That never happened in any other industry other than ours. I cant comment on European because I never tracked them.

Dont forget to look at oil clearance specs older vs newer. in the past you ran 30wt oil due to bearing clearances of the engines. Now you run 0/something. The American industry ran good metals in their "special performance" vehicle's. High nickel and forged components were standard in most Japanese. Today engines are more precise with better metal. Transmissions are geared better.

Its OK to be mad at your 30 year old vehicle. Just understand, its long worn out.

I can not contradict your life's work and won't attempt to. However, let's take GM's AFM DFM or the infamous 8 speed transmission that is in a class action right now...a relatively small number of affected people are upset for good reason but GM disagrees that this is systemic enough for voluntary service campaign and NTSB hasn't issued a recall...to be determined. Not saying there aren't other issues, I know there are.

Toyotas Tacoma failures were frames rusting out and splitting in half, something you have no choice but to take ownership. The sedans had a drive-by -wire throttle issue that killed something like 90 people some 15 years ago. And the Hybrid brake systems circa 2015 was an issue - if it is not STILL - and subject to a class action lawsuit of its own.

How is that taking instant ownership? Looks like a play out of the GM handbook to me

 

[smritte]

I wont get into a debate over any of this. I lived this and unless you did too, all you have is either a couple of example's that happened to you or what you read on social media. NO manufacture is without fault.

I hate to say this but, Toyota recalled the frames and even bought vehicles back at up to 1.5 times KBB. There was no "you own it" unless the person dropped the ball themself.

You mentioned GM and class action law suit. How many pages of just GM recalls would you like me to list where over 100k vehicles were involved and you never saw that in the news. I wont list the Ford or Chrysler failures which by the way are more numerus then GM.

Here's the first three GM that came to mind quickly

1. Every GM truck, van, suv, small and large over a four year period. Not Chevrolet, GM. Wiper failure. Took a class action lawsuit to get the recall started with several million vehicles involved. The "Fix" was to install the same poorly engineered circuit board. A year later "When" your wipers stopped working, the recall was done and now its on you. Once the recall was done, I would add in a new ground circuit and permanently fix the issue.

2. 25 years of Camaro/Firebird seatbelts that would fail on impact. Several manufactures. I cant even count how many "bandaid" fixes I was forced to do following the recall.

3. Three years of GM small truck and SUV. Chev, GMC, Olds. Vehicle would catch on fire because they protected a 22 gauge wire with a 20 amp fuse. Again, bandaid repair.

I could go on for days and if I called my bud who ran a big ford dealer for 15 years, he could match me. The point here is, Most manufactures will only do a recall if forced to. My experience with the American manufactures was a band aid approach to fixing the issue.

25 years working for GM with friends all over the industry. All of the ones working at American manufactures said the same things. The ones that barley had issues were the Japanese lines with Toyota having the least issues.

I'm not going to reply any more on here. As the OP stated in his first post, he expected people to get upset. I don't go out of my way to upset people and never do it on purpose. I know what I know and none of it is based on what I read on the internet. If my findings over decaids of being on the ground with this stuff makes people unhappy, sorry.

 

[smritte]

he sedans had a drive-by -wire throttle issue that killed something like 90 people some 15 years ago

Missed this one.
Totally false. You need to not read social media. 100 internet BS.

The vehicle involved was "1" Prius. It wasn't a stuck throttle it was a second floor mat on top of the factory one. It was a dealer loaner car where the person who brought it back to them said the throttle was sticking. The dealer ignored that. The next person who got it had the throttle stick due to the floor mat.
Toyota modified the software to if it sees brake and throttle pressed at the same time, it brings the engine to idle.
After this issue a bunch of people tried to scam there way into a law suit.

I happen to know one of the team that did the investigation.
Today, if there is an aftermarket floor mat, the dealer must put it in the back of the car and hang a sign in the car stating so. Don't believe me, go talk to anyone at Toyota. They also went as far as changing the length of the throttle pedal to prevent this from happening.

I get it, you don't like Toyota. Don't buy one.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I wont get into a debate over any of this. I lived this and unless you did too, all you have is either a couple of example's that happened to you or what you read on social media. NO manufacture is without fault.

I hate to say this but, Toyota recalled the frames and even bought vehicles back at up to 1.5 times KBB. There was no "you own it" unless the person dropped the ball themself.

You mentioned GM and class action law suit. How many pages of just GM recalls would you like me to list where over 100k vehicles were involved and you never saw that in the news. I wont list the Ford or Chrysler failures which by the way are more numerus then GM.

Here's the first three GM that came to mind quickly

1. Every GM truck, van, suv, small and large over a four year period. Not Chevrolet, GM. Wiper failure. Took a class action lawsuit to get the recall started with several million vehicles involved. The "Fix" was to install the same poorly engineered circuit board. A year later "When" your wipers stopped working, the recall was done and now its on you. Once the recall was done, I would add in a new ground circuit and permanently fix the issue.

2. 25 years of Camaro/Firebird seatbelts that would fail on impact. Several manufactures. I cant even count how many "bandaid" fixes I was forced to do following the recall.

3. Three years of GM small truck and SUV. Chev, GMC, Olds. Vehicle would catch on fire because they protected a 22 gauge wire with a 20 amp fuse. Again, bandaid repair.

I could go on for days and if I called my bud who ran a big ford dealer for 15 years, he could match me. The point here is, Most manufactures will only do a recall if forced to. My experience with the American manufactures was a band aid approach to fixing the issue.

25 years working for GM with friends all over the industry. All of the ones working at American manufactures said the same things. The ones that barley had issues were the Japanese lines with Toyota having the least issues.

I'm not going to reply any more on here. As the OP stated in his first post, he expected people to get upset. I don't go out of my way to upset people and never do it on purpose. I know what I know and none of it is based on what I read on the internet. If my findings over decaids of being on the ground with this stuff makes people unhappy, sorry.

Oh, I'm not upset at all, merely pointing out some facts and information. We agree, no manufacturer is exempt, I don't know what you are upset about, it's not an attack on you, as I said.

For you to presume that I'm talking about something I read on social media?!?! You are way off base. Everything I mentioned was national news.

Just before Christmas one year, a local woman wound up in a pond in her Toyota. She had just enough time to make a call to her husband before the water rushed in and urgently told him as much before the line went dead. Literally. They didn't find her until the ice cleared in the spring.

That was the fly by wire system coupled with a brake issue, if I am not wrong.

I'm not at all against Toyota. Great cars and trucks. But Toyota HAD to take action in those instances, it was big news and people were getting killed. They HAD to recall the frames -they cracked the hell apart. And the brake issue was or still is a class action.

You exaulted Toyota, which is fine, but I'm just pointing out that they really are no different. These are all business decisions.

As for the older toyota tacomas with 4 cylinder and manual? I wish every manufacturer had that option for the midsize truck lines

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Missed this one.
Totally false. You need to not read social media. 100 internet BS.

The vehicle involved was "1" Prius. It wasn't a stuck throttle it was a second floor mat on top of the factory one. It was a dealer loaner car where the person who brought it back to them said the throttle was sticking. The dealer ignored that. The next person who got it had the throttle stick due to the floor mat.
Toyota modified the software to if it sees brake and throttle pressed at the same time, it brings the engine to idle.
After this issue a bunch of people tried to scam there way into a law suit.

I happen to know one of the team that did the investigation.
Today, if there is an aftermarket floor mat, the dealer must put it in the back of the car and hang a sign in the car stating so. Don't believe me, go talk to anyone at Toyota. They also went as far as changing the length of the throttle pedal to prevent this from happening.

I get it, you don't like Toyota. Don't buy one.

You proceed from false assumption. I love Toyotas. Rav4. 4runner. Prius V...all great stuff.

And I'm not on social media, I read the real news.

3.8 million toyotas were recalled in 2009, which they eventually traced to the floor mat issue. But they were recalled again in 2010 and found problems specifically NOT caused by the floor mat issue: sticky accelerators and the need for a software fix.

Toyota paid out over a billion dollars (with a B) about 10 years ago on account of them having covered up the number of deaths associated with these events. Ok by you?

I was wrong about something though...they didn't find that poor lady and give peace to her family until the following November, not spring time., and it wasn't a Prius. I happen to have met the family, albeit briefly.

It's ok that Toyota also isn't perfect. They are some of the best in my book but these things are also true

 

[MidOH]

GM sucks. Let's just get past that.

I no longer service GM's:
"My transmission failed, it's your fault."
"Lady, I only did your brakes, I was nowhere near your transmission."

But it's like that, over and over again. It's sad that Toyota has copied many of the design touches, of the new GM's instead of doing their own unique thing.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

No doubt. When I mentioned the Chevy Shimmy to the service writer, he shrugged and said " they all do that." To which I replied, "maybe all Chevys do that, but not all cars do that."

I was fortunate to get 175k out of mine (with some maintenance) before suffering a full transmission catastrophic failure

 

[Arkansas_SR5]

GM sucks. Let's just get past that.

I no longer service GM's:
"My transmission failed, it's your fault."
"Lady, I only did your brakes, I was nowhere near your transmission."

But it's like that, over and over again. It's sad that Toyota has copied many of the design touches, of the new GM's instead of doing their own unique thing.

Ford seems to be the best of the domestic OEMs if you look at the data, at least in the case of the Super Duty pickups. IIRC they're the most likely vehicle to reach 250k miles, ahead of even the Land Cruiser. The 300 ci straight six and 4.6 Mod V8 were also legends. Unfortunately they put the awful 5.4 3-valve Triton in everything for years.

 

[MidOH]

Only the Superduties. Especially the gas ones. I don't recommend Fords consumer grade cars.

Hopefully the Ranger proves me wrong.

Work trucks have to be halfway reliable to sell to any fleet. The gas 6.2 and 7.3l Superduties are my favorite 4wds.

 

[tjZ06]

GM sucks. Let's just get past that.

Far and away the best/most reliable vehicle I've ever owned is my 2011 Silverado 2500 HD (that I bought new, still have now, and will be buried in). I have a 2007 Tahoe that serves as a DD/MTB vehicle and has 167k on the clock all stock drivetrain and is awesome (and in theory, it's "the worst" having a AFM 5.3 and a 4L60E). I have a 2012 CTS-V that makes right at 700 RWHP on a fully stock longblock, stock clutch, stock trans, stock rear diff, stock axle shafts etc. with very light mods (intake, bigger heat exchanger for the intercooler, pulley, injectors, long tube headers, catted x-pipe, tune). I've had countless other GMs as well as LS motors in a ton of other vehicles. GM sucks, okay... why are 9 out of 10 engine swaps a GM engine ("LS")?

I had a Toyota product ('06 Lexus IS250) that was bought back as a lemon, I had a Land Rover ('06 Range Rover Sport Supercharged) that was nearly flawless past 100k mi (and I towed with it, camped/wheeled with it, even AutoX'ed it). No brand is perfect, but they all have high and low points. I could play the same game and say "Ford sucks..." and point at 6.0/6.4 PSDs, Gen 1 EcoBoost V6s, 5.4 Tritons, etc. etc. That said, if I was buying a brand new truck to build out for Overlanding it'd be a 7.3 gas F350 (yes, a Ford). I don't say "Ford sucks" I say "a lot of Fords suck." Pick a brand, and I can give you a list of terrible vehicles I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, and I'm sure at least a few I'd love to own.

Pick the right vehicle and it won't "suck." I've picked right (my Silverado) and wrong (the Lexus).





Back on topic: no, I don't think the early 'tacos deserve their reputation. And that's based on many friends having them and having a lot of the same issue as you (frame rot, multiple engine replacements, etc.). I have a buddy with a 3rd Gen 4 Runner (more or less the same vehicle) that always brags about how he has 300k+ miles and how dependable it is... but he's on his 3rd motor, a clutch or two, had to rebuild the rear axle, etc. It's just like the 4.0L I6 Jeep engine (yes, I've had those too) that everyone says is the most bulletproof motor ever. Yet, the 4.0 actually has a lot of issues (lifter issues causing the famous tick/knock, constantly cracking exhaust manifolds, can't keep a rear main seal in them, etc.). The thing is, the 1st Gen 'tacos and most of the 4.0L Jeeps (think XJ, TJ... not ZJ/WJ so much) are so beloved people will keep fixing them and end up with half a million miles on them. That doesn't make the engine itself reliable, it makes the platform worth continued investment.

-TJ