The Black Plaque is on the rise again... there's also a weaponized version of Covid... spin the roulette wheel...
ABC News report: National Parks under fire now for racism
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Odyssey USA
Rank IV
Enthusiast III
So road planning engineers were negligent to black and brown people in their designing of which city...or is it every city? And every city bulldozed livable housing neighborhoods displacing POC (new term to me... meaning everyone but Caucasian’s? Seems divisive in itself.) I’d be interested in evidence of this claim for every place it’s claimed to have occurred. It sounds like a claim to purposely and indiscriminately cause health issues for city dwellers...as if there’s not been one opportunity in one’s life to leave the city and move to the also possibly poor country where it sounds like that’s the only option. There is an option to having cleaner air in cities though...the citizens can vote to ban everything but bicycles.
And we can’t just have a generic, non racial commercial or advertising expounding on the attributes of caring for and enjoying the great outdoors? Do we need a quota on what races are in the commercial or do we just have an ad without representing actual people? Singling out and focusing on people by race seems wrong in itself.
The preoccupation with skin color is real. Based on personal life experiences most people in this imperfect country of imperfect people don’t usually care about race in any significant way. They care about living their life the best way they see fit. We’re a melting pot. Pure races are not existent to any measurable way and it’s ever changing. I don’t get it. There will be evil and we hope there is more good but they will both always exist to some degree.
NP’s, BLM, public lands in general are a great getaway from the grind. What race has to do with a park is at best, a stretch and it stinks of race baiting in my opinion.
And we can’t just have a generic, non racial commercial or advertising expounding on the attributes of caring for and enjoying the great outdoors? Do we need a quota on what races are in the commercial or do we just have an ad without representing actual people? Singling out and focusing on people by race seems wrong in itself.
The preoccupation with skin color is real. Based on personal life experiences most people in this imperfect country of imperfect people don’t usually care about race in any significant way. They care about living their life the best way they see fit. We’re a melting pot. Pure races are not existent to any measurable way and it’s ever changing. I don’t get it. There will be evil and we hope there is more good but they will both always exist to some degree.
NP’s, BLM, public lands in general are a great getaway from the grind. What race has to do with a park is at best, a stretch and it stinks of race baiting in my opinion.
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Odyssey USA
Rank IV
Enthusiast III
I think they refer to it as The Scouts because you cant tell someone they cant be apart of it
Here ya go, bub.
Note that I never said 'every', only 'often'. The neighborhood I grew up in was a great little polish community before I-94 became one of the big depressions mentioned, splitting the neighborhood in two and diverting commerce to the suburbs.
Is this sarcasm? Moving takes a lot of resources and involves a lot of uncertainty. Better to take the assured job in the city to provide for one's family than to move to the middle of nowhere when you're living paycheck-to-paycheck. Many of these issues didn't even occur to our parents as concerns until they worked to secure our education. Now we can assess how our urban environment has impacted our lived experiences.
Buddy you're speaking my language. As I said earlier, I went over a decade without a car because this is my mission.
In my utopia, we navigate cities by rail, bus, and bike. I long for the day I can toss my bike in the cargo hold of a train, enjoy the views, and hop off at Glacier to do some bikepacking.
What do we lose by depicting people with melanin enjoying our nation's wilderness?
I agree. Shame it's been so important to our nation's history.
The discussion we're trying to have here is how to grant poor urbanites access to these outdoor spaces. They stand to gain a lot from a break from the grind. The correlation between wealth, poverty, and race in the US stems from our nation's history, and these communities don't prioritize the outdoors because they just don't have access to them. Being able to get time off of work, to afford gas, to afford the vehicle passes, to afford the camping gear, some safety net just in case an axle breaks and shtf. Having access to knowledge about *how* to camp, and where. Worrying about someone breaking into your house while you're gone. Hearing stories like this one about a guy threatened with lynching at a public park literally last week and wondering if you're next. Overcoming these obstacles entails an opportunity cost that might be better spent elsewhere. Regardless of how little you and your peers concern yourselves with race, these are very real obstacles for your fellow poor and / or melanated americans.
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Traveler III
@DadJokes
I can only point you in a direction. Here's a link to an article focusing on a couple major examples of city planning and infrastructure bias.
www.theguardian.com
After that, it's up to you. There are a lot of rabbit holes to explore on the topic. All intertwined and connected. Start with "Redlining" and move on from there. There are links to the original document database in the article.
I can only point you in a direction. Here's a link to an article focusing on a couple major examples of city planning and infrastructure bias.
Roads to nowhere: how infrastructure built on American inequality
From highways carved through thriving ‘ghettoes’ to walls segregating black and white neighbourhoods, US city development has a long and divisive history
www.theguardian.com
After that, it's up to you. There are a lot of rabbit holes to explore on the topic. All intertwined and connected. Start with "Redlining" and move on from there. There are links to the original document database in the article.
Odyssey USA
Rank IV
Enthusiast III
And the negligence? Were people of the neighborhoods auto owners? Did they also commute? How were the generations prior to predict the problems of the automobile?
No, no sarcasm was intended. To me, your statement intimated that there was a negligent or even intentional disregard for livable homes when trying to solve a transportation problem. These still happen today and everyone says “not in my backyard” so I requested evidence to support the claim made.
All but albinos have melanin. I find singling out by race, religion, ethnicity (discriminating by definition) something to be leery of. I’m not absolutist on it, but we need to be careful of a slippery slope of also discriminating in other media, etc. I think a preoccupation with race could lead to bias.
In my opinion, race may have been important to some in history but today, I feel it’s a target of race baiting and coercion in politics. Racism isn’t genetic so it’s not inherent with the generations today. Evil exists. It always will but we can strive for the betterment of ethics, honesty, and general goodness in society.... continuous improvement. That should be the goal.
There is not a race in this country that has a monopoly on any of the issues you mention, even being judged based on appearance. You may disagree but the opportunity is there. There never will be guarantees of “success” (which is subjective). There’s no guarantee of having income which is the root cause of the hurdles, obstacles, that you mention. How have others left the communities and become “successful”?
Parents need to be there to raise their kids the best they can giving them values and wisdom that will affect their life path most by leading to quality decisions. I think this is under-appreciated, having a family and friend support system. Work hard, make good decisiona. Generally, age and wisdom, making mistakes, can teach better decision making skills. Try not to make the same mistake again.
Wow. Those were bad and seemingly drunk people in that video! But again, no race has a monopoly on racism. There’s a few videos floating around but overall, it’s still not a prevalent event shared in the media, especially per capita. There will always be bad people...but let’s strive to be better.
I think a huge first step would be to lower crime not because of consequences of the laws on the books, but because they want to do the right thing and not shoot or steal from neighbors. Improve community life, poor or not. Being poor doesn’t dictate that one breaks the law. Do what you have to do to avoid that and better ones’ self, family, & the community.
No, no sarcasm was intended. To me, your statement intimated that there was a negligent or even intentional disregard for livable homes when trying to solve a transportation problem. These still happen today and everyone says “not in my backyard” so I requested evidence to support the claim made.
All but albinos have melanin. I find singling out by race, religion, ethnicity (discriminating by definition) something to be leery of. I’m not absolutist on it, but we need to be careful of a slippery slope of also discriminating in other media, etc. I think a preoccupation with race could lead to bias.
In my opinion, race may have been important to some in history but today, I feel it’s a target of race baiting and coercion in politics. Racism isn’t genetic so it’s not inherent with the generations today. Evil exists. It always will but we can strive for the betterment of ethics, honesty, and general goodness in society.... continuous improvement. That should be the goal.
There is not a race in this country that has a monopoly on any of the issues you mention, even being judged based on appearance. You may disagree but the opportunity is there. There never will be guarantees of “success” (which is subjective). There’s no guarantee of having income which is the root cause of the hurdles, obstacles, that you mention. How have others left the communities and become “successful”?
Parents need to be there to raise their kids the best they can giving them values and wisdom that will affect their life path most by leading to quality decisions. I think this is under-appreciated, having a family and friend support system. Work hard, make good decisiona. Generally, age and wisdom, making mistakes, can teach better decision making skills. Try not to make the same mistake again.
Wow. Those were bad and seemingly drunk people in that video! But again, no race has a monopoly on racism. There’s a few videos floating around but overall, it’s still not a prevalent event shared in the media, especially per capita. There will always be bad people...but let’s strive to be better.
I think a huge first step would be to lower crime not because of consequences of the laws on the books, but because they want to do the right thing and not shoot or steal from neighbors. Improve community life, poor or not. Being poor doesn’t dictate that one breaks the law. Do what you have to do to avoid that and better ones’ self, family, & the community.
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Member II
woke up and decided to remove my post. I do not want to be apart of the "discussion".
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Odyssey USA
Rank IV
Enthusiast III
@DadJokes
I can only point you in a direction. Here's a link to an article focusing on a couple major examples of city planning and infrastructure bias.
Roads to nowhere: how infrastructure built on American inequality
From highways carved through thriving ‘ghettoes’ to walls segregating black and white neighbourhoods, US city development has a long and divisive history
After that, it's up to you. There are a lot of rabbit holes to explore on the topic. All intertwined and connected. Start with "Redlining" and move on from there. There are links to the original document database in the article.
We can surely agree on the history of the author as a potentially biased one but assuming he is not, there are references to various races living in these areas and that the neighborhoods ranged from poor to middle class, where eminent domain was used to full effect indiscriminately disrupting these communities.@DadJokes
I can only point you in a direction. Here's a link to an article focusing on a couple major examples of city planning and infrastructure bias.
Roads to nowhere: how infrastructure built on American inequality
From highways carved through thriving ‘ghettoes’ to walls segregating black and white neighbourhoods, US city development has a long and divisive history
After that, it's up to you. There are a lot of rabbit holes to explore on the topic. All intertwined and connected. Start with "Redlining" and move on from there. There are links to the original document database in the article.
What’s the claim on how long this was economically or socially consequential? It seems the barriers were eventually overcome as the communities physically grew past them. Socially, people are resilient. I’m sure if there was a time where eminent domain was used disrupting communities it was during the years when federal highways were spreading across the country for improved logistics and economic reasons of which those with less influence, political capital even, may have been on the receiving end of projects ramrodded through their communities.
Is it still a source of division today? Or is the story of it having happened the source?
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Advocate III
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I’ve been fallowing this thread and I see a lot of both sides... with that said, @DadJokes and @Shakes355 knock it off you two... your arguments while well worth your opinions are distracting from the great criticism being put in by members like @Big G and @EXPO_D1 .
I like the idea of OB members helping those less fortunate get out and explore. I have done this many times. Weather it be to a state park, NP, or taking a week to explore some National Forest.
I remember when I was realitivly new to Colorado, a group of guys decided to take a weekend and run “Old Gold Camp Road” from Cheyenne Mountain to Cripple Creek. We were a group of about 10 rigs all experienced mountaineers. But each rig was full of green soldiers that had gone camping for their first time in Basic Training in the FTX. My YJ was packed with gear in the roll bars and strapped to the hood to make room for 2 Porataricans, and a African. Not that their race had anything to do with it. The African was from Zimbabwe and his thought of the outdoors was that it is filled with wild dangerous animals that could and would harm him. One Poratarican was from LA, he said he never went in the hills because that’s where the gangs would take you to disappear you. The last Portarican was from New Jersey... He had never been camping, but would go hiking. He just didn’t have room to store outdoor gear, or room to even park a car.
Over the week these 3 guys fell in love with adventuring through the mountains. The LA native Got scared when we had to crawl over the first boulder, but by the end of the trip he was handeling my YJ like a pro. None of the guys had a car let alone a drivers license. All three got their learners permit the fallowing week, and by the end of the summer all of them had their very own cars... By the next summer they were all leading their own trips throughout Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, and Wyoming taking other greenies with them.
I got accused by an OB Member a few weeks ago of spending too much time with new members and not spending enough time with Vetean members. I disagree with his statement to me... if I don’t spend time with the new members, teach them what I know, and instill the Overland Bound Core Principals, then who is going to help them.
September 26, 2020 is National Public Lands Day; I encourage all members no matter the skill level to get out on NPLD and do your part and enjoy or public resources. Take someone with you that has never been out with you. And it doesn’t have to be on NPLD, but it would be cool to see an Expedition with several OB rigs fallowed by (or fallowing) other rigs belonging to people that have never been.
I like the idea of OB members helping those less fortunate get out and explore. I have done this many times. Weather it be to a state park, NP, or taking a week to explore some National Forest.
I remember when I was realitivly new to Colorado, a group of guys decided to take a weekend and run “Old Gold Camp Road” from Cheyenne Mountain to Cripple Creek. We were a group of about 10 rigs all experienced mountaineers. But each rig was full of green soldiers that had gone camping for their first time in Basic Training in the FTX. My YJ was packed with gear in the roll bars and strapped to the hood to make room for 2 Porataricans, and a African. Not that their race had anything to do with it. The African was from Zimbabwe and his thought of the outdoors was that it is filled with wild dangerous animals that could and would harm him. One Poratarican was from LA, he said he never went in the hills because that’s where the gangs would take you to disappear you. The last Portarican was from New Jersey... He had never been camping, but would go hiking. He just didn’t have room to store outdoor gear, or room to even park a car.
Over the week these 3 guys fell in love with adventuring through the mountains. The LA native Got scared when we had to crawl over the first boulder, but by the end of the trip he was handeling my YJ like a pro. None of the guys had a car let alone a drivers license. All three got their learners permit the fallowing week, and by the end of the summer all of them had their very own cars... By the next summer they were all leading their own trips throughout Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, and Wyoming taking other greenies with them.
I got accused by an OB Member a few weeks ago of spending too much time with new members and not spending enough time with Vetean members. I disagree with his statement to me... if I don’t spend time with the new members, teach them what I know, and instill the Overland Bound Core Principals, then who is going to help them.
September 26, 2020 is National Public Lands Day; I encourage all members no matter the skill level to get out on NPLD and do your part and enjoy or public resources. Take someone with you that has never been out with you. And it doesn’t have to be on NPLD, but it would be cool to see an Expedition with several OB rigs fallowed by (or fallowing) other rigs belonging to people that have never been.
Odyssey USA
Rank IV
Enthusiast III
Something great like this doesn’t even need to have an organization created. Take your kids’ friends with you. Go to community events and just talk with people. Be a good role model and people may just want to emulate you and therefore take an interest in what you do, including freetime. Be social and it will present opportunities.
Odyssey USA
Rank IV
Enthusiast III
Inspiring story! I love showing people how to do... anything I know and then watching them also pass it on. Super rewarding!
Advocate III
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Exactly, be part of the solution. Like you said it’s not hard. The hardest part to get someone out into Nature is just getting them interested enough to let their guard down. Reassuring them that it’s ok, and nothing to really be afraid of can be challenging at times.
Telling the Zimbabwe guy that the mountain lions and bears would leave us alone was difficult, but after hearing stories of our close encounters with nature he finally calmed down (until we passed Bear Trap Springs) and then he was concerned for the night...Next morning when we awoke and only one guy had a torn up sleeping bag and a missing tent, he realized we were right and everything was hunky dory from then on out.
The torn sleeping bag and missing tent was a practical joke played by one of us (not me).
You are correct very rewarding.
My son just turned 18. He grew up in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Him and my daughter had never been camping until they came to live with me in 2016. My son is definitely what we out here call a “City Boy”. Sagging pants, sideways ball cap, Sk8 shoes... the whole nine yards. He hates camping, hates the mountains, and most importantly hates fishing. After spending 4 years with me he learned to appreciate the great outdoors and would beg me to take him fishing and camping. Last year for the 4th of July he wanted to take a friend and go backpacking. So my wife, my son, his friend, and I packed our gear and headed into the wilderness for a 4 day adventure. My son was the first to set up his tent, get his stove ready to cook on, and get his pole ready to toss the bait into the stream. He then turned to his friend and helped teach him how to set up camp, how the different parts of his Kit worked, and taught his friend how to catch dinner. My wife and I sat back all weekend long watching the two of them work together with huge smiles in our face.
Memorial Day Weekend last year my son really stepped up and surprised me... he planned our whole camping trip... he chose the location, he did the meal planning, he even put together the packing list for each of us. He wanted an epic fishing trip where he could float in his Kayak while dad (Me) could fish from his rowboat. Once we got to the reservoir he started barking orders at all the kids (I took him my daughter and their significant others) in what their camp chores were before they could go swimming. I started to grab my tent and sleep system when he told me to set it down and just sit back, watch, and answer any questions he couldn’t answer.
We ended up having the most remembered trip ever. I did nothing but lounge in my boat from a safe distance away and watch the kids fish and swim all weekend long. The last day my son caught the largest fish for the weekend as well as the most fish out of all of us.
Shortly after this trip his girlfriend broke up with him and unable to deal with the heartbreak he moved back to Colorado to live with his mom. This spring he surprised me again... he called me up asking for 20 bucks. I asked him what he needed 20 for, and he said because he wanted to get his fishing license. So I sent him some money along with a brand new pole and tackle box and his old gear as well. A week later he face timed me fro the Creek next to his house holding up a stringer of fish. He told me the story behind each fish on the stringer, out of the whole day he had caught one fish of legal size, while his buddy who had never fished before had caught all those fish. That made my night. To see my young man pass on a skill to another who would never get the opportunity. My son is now working to get his friend to go backpacking up Cheyenne Mountain for a 2 night 3 day hike. The hard part is talking his mom into letting him go.
Advocate III
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Read some of the post in here some very good ideas have been thrown out.This thread is Bull Shit!
I can't believe the moderators allow this!
Anything in particular you disagree with, Bruce?This thread is Bull Shit!
I can't believe the moderators allow this!
So now that I read more alot of people say now its our duty to help get people outdoors? thats like forcing people to a new hobby they have zero interest in. If you take people to your outdoor hobby, does that mean you have to learn from them how to live like they do in the city? why cant people just do what they want instead of worrying about including everyone in everything they do.
USStrongman
Rank V
Influencer II
I have the ability to go to NY, Chicago, Miami, LA, Seattle, DC, et al... spend my money, enjoy tax payer paid for cultural opportunities, but I don't.
Citizens in NY, Chicago, Miami, LA, Seattle, DC, et al have the ability to go to a city, county, state, national park and enjoy it. Whether you chose to or not is up to them, not some special interest group pushing buttons. Are there socioeconomically disadvantaged people who may never go to a state or national park? Of course.... and there are more and more institutions and non-profits making those opportunities available to inner city children who may not otherwise be able to. Letting the feds develop those plans is fucking insane. They couldn't even manage to keep parks open during and after Covid. The Pussification of this country continues.
Citizens in NY, Chicago, Miami, LA, Seattle, DC, et al have the ability to go to a city, county, state, national park and enjoy it. Whether you chose to or not is up to them, not some special interest group pushing buttons. Are there socioeconomically disadvantaged people who may never go to a state or national park? Of course.... and there are more and more institutions and non-profits making those opportunities available to inner city children who may not otherwise be able to. Letting the feds develop those plans is fucking insane. They couldn't even manage to keep parks open during and after Covid. The Pussification of this country continues.
FishinCrzy
Rank V
Advocate I
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I would really like to visit Australia. Do you know of any programs that would provide the ability for me to do so? I would prefer not to spend MY money but I feel it is my right to have the opportunity provided to me. You know, pursuit of happiness and all. LOL
Member III
I'm not sure if I missed something in reading all these posts or what, but I do know what I said so I want to respond to some who are saying its our "duty." or are feeling forced to do something you don't want to do. That is not what I said at all, and I don't think "duty" was suggested, although I may have missed it. I simply was thinking out loud about possibilities of things that could be done by those who would like to. OB isn't about forcing anyone to do anything except maybe to buy into the core principles, but even then I don't think forced would be the correct terminology. Why are these suggestions of helping others get interested in the outdoors any different than an OB RP to do trail clean up? We didn't make the mess, so why do I need to do the work? Its a voluntary thing and no one is forced to do trail clean up. Or what about inviting friends to go on trip with you? Is that really any different than some of these suggestions. Yes, they're your friends, but you invite them because you want to, and want them to enjoy, with you, the things you enjoy. But you're not forcing the to go. I can respect that you don't want to take otheres with you that you don't know, or that you just don't want to do it, but I would ask that you would respect others who might want to. Overland Bound is a highly diverse organization, that includes people from all walks of life, which includes worldwide members who perhaps don't look at things the way we do here in America, but, we all share a common interest as well that makes us a great microcosim of the world at large. So let's celebrate our differences and enjoy our similar interests, specifically overlanding.
USStrongman
Rank V
Influencer II
I agree. Introducing friends and family to your passion is what life is about. Being forced to do it out of shame or privilege or whatever is ludicrous. When I think about sharing your lifes passion, there is only one scene form a movie that explains it in full detail. Not wanting to go, but supporting someone else passion... that's what Jeffrey Lebowski was all about.
