Pick-up Trucks

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Dodge/ Chrysler actually makes a damn good transmission, its maintenance and operation practice and lack of information that cooks them. My 93 Dodge had 230K on the original trans and that was behind a tuned a 12valve Cummins that was worked. Even then it worked just fine, but as my dad was going to be towing 18K from Delaware to Idaho he decided to swing in a new unit so there was no worries about a failure. We would have done this with any auto honestly. The key to keeping a Dodge transmission alive is first and for most running the right fluid. All of those over drive transmissions were designed to run full synthetic fluid, the Chrysler spec ATF+. Unfortunately its hard to come by even now and so Chrysler said you can run Dextron III in them to get by, but it doesnt flow through the tighter passages of the case and doesnt lubricate the clutches well enough for long term use. So you get slower flow rates wich starves the over drive unit, and increased heat and poor shifts which kills them very quickly. Its kinda like running type FA ATF in a Hydramatic, it will work but not for long. The other big issue is the fact they dont circulate fluid in park. This was done to provide faster warm ups and improved performance of the transmission in cold weather. Unfortunately if you idle them in park for too long the torque converter will generate enough heat in the stagnant fluid that it will burn it, then its game over.
Also the manuals when run behind the Cummins have lots of well documented issues too. The Getrags are known for input bearing failures, and the NV4500s are known for 5th gear failures. And to reinforce the importance of proper oil spec, current conventional gear oil doesnt play well with brass syncros. So if you dont check the bottle to make sure its good for syncroed transmissions its game over there too.


Also didnt Toyota and Honda get in a lot of trouble about 10 years back for buying off outfits like Consumer reports to lie about their products? Also one of the Issues that dinged the GMC Terrain was a simple typo on the tire size decal. Could it be a problem, sure, but its far from a mechanical issue. So that illustrates how broad the term that is applied is when talking about automotive "reliability".

I certainly agree !!!

 

[alexdnick]

Very fair! Still, while the more recent data show Chevy has continued its impressive improvements, Ford, GMC, Ram, and Jeep (lumping in simply because its popular here) are still pretty far down there. Even in what is apparently the worst year for Toyota, the 2018 study of 2015 vehicle, owners were still 20% more likely to have a problem with their Ford vehicles than with Toyotas. And that percentage only increased with the aforementioned American truck brands outside of Chevy.


Also, you are absolutely right on the lack of quantification of "problem." I remember on the F250 forums, at least half of the problems and malfunctions reported on new Super Duty trucks were with fancier electronics (steering wheel heaters, blind spot monitors, etc) that I deliberately avoided on my XL, and that would otherwise have no real affect on safely getting from point A to point B.

Though, to be fair (and transparent as to any perceived bias), on my 2019 F250 the driveshaft clunked and the transfer case whined in 4Lo (louder than any vehicle Id ever been in). Oh, and 6 weeks after I bought it, my truck forces me off the highway due to an ECU failure that cost them $1000 to replace under warranty. So I'll fully admit my experience is a little soured; I sold a 17-year-old Toyota 4Runner for a brand-new 2019 Ford F250, and 6 weeks later both had forced me off the road exactly once. And, with the driveshaft clunk (a commonly reported problem) and the TCase whine (apparently unique to my vehicle, but that Fird describes as "normal"), I certainly didn't have the confidence it would make it North of 200k like Id have expected. Fortunately, we scrapped the Airstream idea and I traded the truck back in.

So, bottom line, while we can perhaps start to lump Chevy into the mix of reliable vehicles**, in no way do I think these data allow us to qualitatively and generally say "American trucks are as reliable as Toyotas now."

**I say "start to,' because 3-year reliability (30-50k miles) and 10-year reliability (100-150k miles) are dramatically different, and we don't have data to support a true increase in long-term reliability.

You are very right about the American companies still needing to prove themselves in general long term reliability standards. I bought the new Colorado hoping if I care for it, it will last me atleast 10 years.

One thing I have noticed is how talked about Toyota’s are with high miles, while there are lots of Colorado’s, Rangers, and some other mid size trucks over 200k, but I almost never see people talking about those.

I also have bias because I didn’t want to be one of those “Toyota Bros” that I always see driving around with all their windows down, shades on, blasting music with their dog in the bed of their truck. Plus the people at the Toyota dealership never wanted to help me, and kept telling me how a Tundra would be a much better purchase.

Maybe I did buy a Colorado out of spite after all :P

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I too am a Power Wagon fan. But all those features that make it as capable as a Rubicon rob it of payload capacity. It is only rated to haul 1440#. A full gas tank and 5 guys can pretty much use that up with an empty box. Adding a wicn & bumpers and you are overweight.

Since it can tow 9700# you pretty much need a trailer to go camping.

I kindly disagree whit your weight calculations. If you wanna haul more buy a truck that hauls a bigger load. In other words "bring a bigger stick to the fight if you wanna win". That's why they sell 1/2 ton trucks and larger. Just because it's a truck doesn't mean it will haul what you want hauled. I wouldn't be having 5 guys in my venture off road and I doubt you do either. So give me back that 1000# your taking away and put some gear in my truck instead . I believe the load capacity rating takes into consideration that you will have passengers and is not a part of the load rating. For instance, a standard cab truck can have three people in the front seat and still carry it's rated capacity of whatever load you will carry. :- )

 

[Billiebob]

I believe the load capacity rating takes into consideration that you will have passengers and is not a part of the load rating

100% wrong there. Easily proven by just reading the spec sheet. Curb Weight is with no passengers, no driver and empty gas tanks. GVWR minus Curb Weight tells you what the theoretical payload is.

What hurts the Power Wagon is the ultra flexible suspension. The GVWR is based on the worst case of climbing across a rock field with the sway bar disconnected. True on the freeway with the sway bar connected it can likely haul much more but if you buy one to overland..... will you unload it when you need to disconnect and crawl? The payload is what the vehicle was engineered to haul when doing what they advertise the Power Wagon can do.

I know of one traveller who broke a suspension component while camping. He took it to the dealer for a warranty fix. They scaled it and cancelled his warranty, plus charged him for the fix. You can be in denial as long as you want. The worst thing about North American Manufacturers is they are always looking for a way out of paying for warranty.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

HEY, ANYONE OUT THERE WANT A TOYOTA KILLER ? https://salem.craigslist.org/cto/d/los-angeles-2016-f250-platnuim-diesel/6889409688.html

 

[Billiebob]

HEY, ANYONE OUT THERE WANT A TOYOTA KILLER ? https://salem.craigslist.org/cto/d/los-angeles-2016-f250-platnuim-diesel/6889409688.html

That I do like. Only way to do BIG tires, cut the body to fit !!

 

[Tavis Garren]

I too am a Power Wagon fan. But all those features that make it as capable as a Rubicon rob it of payload capacity. It is only rated to haul 1440#. A full gas tank and 5 guys can pretty much use that up with an empty box. Add a winch & bumpers and you are overweight.

Since it can tow 9700# you pretty much need a trailer to go camping.

You’re right it does not have a very high payload because of “D” range tires and the flex of the springs. It already comes with a winch so that isn’t needed to be purchased aftermarket. I bought it for my particular needs because when I go with the family I tow a 7,000 pound camper. I use a ground tent when I camp solo or with my son so I don’t need a huge payload. If I needed a large payload or to tow a lot I would not have chose this truck and bought a 2500 with a Cummins instead.

 

[Motoboss]

You are very right about the American companies still needing to prove themselves in general long term reliability standards.

I call total BS. Ford has been the leading truck manafactur for the past 4 decades and now has been identified as the number 1 selling vechile over the past 4 years worldwide, every 40 seconds a F150 is sold throughout the world.
I think they have more than proven reliability!

If you're a youngster the Japanese wave has been part of your life and clouds perception.

 

[alexdnick]

I call total BS. Ford has been the leading truck manafactur for the past 4 decades and now has been identified as the number 1 selling vechile over the past 4 years worldwide, every 40 seconds a F150 is sold throughout the world.
I think they have more than proven reliability!

If you're a youngster the Japanese wave has been part of your life and clouds perception.

Sales doesn’t necessarily equate to reliability. Although indirectly it would because more reliable = more sales.

Trust me, I’m on the side of American manufacturing, but I feel as though I see more good condition 300k+ Subaru’s, Toyota’s, and Honda’s, than I do 300k+ GM, Ford, etc.

However it’s hard to settle on this argument as it’s a vehicle to vehicle basis and largely depends on care of the truck.

 

[rsweet]

Tundra all the way!

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Damn! That means they have to be making an F150 every 40 seconds just to keep up!

This story was a national news write up in the last 2-3 months. The story is true. Ford can barely fill the orders and has a tremendous backload of orders.
Never will happen at Toyota or any other company until they match the new Fords quality, if they can. It has been Ford who have brought Mazda, Jaguar back into the lime light. Ford designs are the most copied in the world. Unfortunately they or anyone else will never make a car that is not vulnerable to wear. Many years ago Popular Mechanics came our with a story about Ford engineering. Ford actually built an engine In 1939 that was tested for a million miles and showed little wear. It was all based on ball bearings reciprocal moving parts. After accomplishing that feat they decided to scrap the entire program knowing that if they built engines that good no one would ever have to buy a car again. All companies are in business to make money. Their products will always be flawed in some way.
It is called designed obsolescence .

 

[Billiebob]

If you're a youngster the Japanese wave has been part of your life and clouds perception.

I'm no youngster... that Jap Wave started in the 1960s with bikes, the 1970s Civic set the standard for everyone and the Honda Accord, 1980s was the hottest selling car in North America EVER.

Then Toyota took top honours but 20 years ago the Korean Wave took the lead with Hyundia & Kia.

The F150 just has zero foreign competition. And zero domestic competition either.

Having owned all the above, my perception is not clouded. I've been driving for 50 years. We have owned 3 Datsuns, a Civic, a Camry, 2 Accords, a Jetta... big mistake, never buying another VW, 3 Subarus, best AWD PERIOD !! and 7 Jeeps. Plus a few F-250s.

The best daily drivers are ALL Asian. The best warranties are all Asian too. Cars with the lowest operating costs, Asian. Cars with the best, fastest resale, Asian.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

100% wrong there. Easily proven by just reading the spec sheet. Curb Weight is with no passengers, no driver and empty gas tanks. GVWR minus Curb Weight tells you what the theoretical payload is.

What hurts the Power Wagon is the ultra flexible suspension. The GVWR is based on the worst case of climbing across a rock field with the sway bar disconnected. True on the freeway with the sway bar connected it can likely haul much more but if you buy one to overland..... will you unload it when you need to disconnect and crawl? The payload is what the vehicle was engineered to haul when doing what they advertise the Power Wagon can do.

I know of one traveller who broke a suspension component while camping. He took it to the dealer for a warranty fix. They scaled it and cancelled his warranty, plus charged him for the fix. You can be in denial as long as you want. The worst thing about North American Manufacturers is they are always looking for a way out of paying for warranty.

Not saying your wrong about GVWR Billybob, I honestly don't know how or what they calculate.. I do know that all the pickup trucks I have ever owned have carried far more weight than they were supposed too, and I have never had a breakage due to a weight issue.

What I am saying in answer to your comment here is, who would take any stock vehicle straight to the rock field anyway. If I'm buying one to overland it will be modified to the conditions I will use it for. No American car builder is going to do that, no one would buy the car. I haven't bought a new truck since 1968 but even back then the warranty stated it would NOT be honored if the truck is abused. Off roading is abusive and if I were the manufacture I wouldn't cover any breakage due to abusive driving either. They are not going to pay for damage you do to a car that is breaking the warranty clause. I have had breakage and have never been denied my warranty. I cant say the same about tire manufactures though. Go buy a set of tires with a 60,000 mile wear warranty. Lets say you drive it for 4 years and only put 20,000 miles on them. You blow a tire or develop bubbles on the side of the tire. The dealer looks at them and says we don't warranty a tire that is more than 4 years old. They tell you that in the purchase agreement but it sure isn't underlined. Can I complain, Yes. Will it do any good, No. Enough said

 

[Billiebob]

Damn! That means they have to be making an F150 every 40 seconds just to keep up!

So they sold 909,330 F-Series in the USA last year. The full F-series but USA only
which is 2491/Day, 104/hour,

ONE EVERY 34 SECONDS !!
USA ONLY.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I'm no youngster... that Jap Wave started in the 1960s with bikes, the 1970s Civic set the standard for everyone and the Honda Accord, 1980s was the hottest selling car in North America EVER.

Then Toyota took top honours but 20 years ago the Korean Wave took the lead with Hyundia & Kia.

The F150 just has zero foreign competition. And zero domestic competition either.

Having owned all the above, my perception is not clouded. I've been driving for 50 years. We have owned 3 Datsuns, a Civic, a Camry, 2 Accords, a Jetta... big mistake, never buying another VW, 3 Subarus, best AWD PERIOD !! and 7 Jeeps. Plus a few F-250s.

The best daily drivers are ALL Asian. The best warranties are all Asian too. Cars with the lowest operating costs, Asian. Cars with the best, fastest resale, Asian.

Sorry fellas, I'm from WW2 era guy, not a whippersnapper like you guys, the Jap stuff is still junk to me. They couldn't even build an airoplane fighter that could turn left (or was it right).???
I own a Land Rover Discovery 2, the Brits were on our side, It's a great lousy car but I'll go anywhere a Toyota or any other normally aspired off road car will go.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

So they sold 909,330 F-Series in the USA last year. The full F-series but USA only
which is 2491/Day, 104/hour,

ONE EVERY 34 SECONDS !!
USA ONLY.

I cant quote the news article or the claim. I think they were referring to the number of seconds the plant operates ??? There should be a way to check out what claims they were making. Your math does make it look like someone is lying but I think the math you are using is not the same math they are using.

 

[Billiebob]

who would take any stock vehicle straight to the rock field anyway. If I'm buying one to overland it will be modified to the conditions I will use it for

I've done all that. My TJR is now back to box stock. I learned, the money pit. Every mod leads to a new weak point, breakage and another "upgrade". With the Rubicon or the Power Wagon, I'd keep it box stock. The factory engineers have way more research & development money than any after market supplier. My mind & attitude have changed with 45 years of wheelin'. I know most vehicles are a much better balance of capable/reliable box stock than modified.

I'm betting 90% of the big budget builds never see any real off roading.

Some of these guys are pretty close to stock.
And I'd take any one of these CJs over a new Sierra with $50K in mods.


Sorry for deviating from pickups.... just can't find anything like this video on stock pickups.

 

[Billiebob]

I cant quote the news article or the claim. I think they were referring to the number of seconds the plant operates ??? There should be a way to check out what claims they were making. Your math does make it look like someone is lying but I think the math you are using is not the same math they are using.

I was not being critical. Fords are sold around the world.
I'm sure they sell the number truck, the F150 every 40 seconds....

That 909,330 figure was from a quick google search. USA 2018 sales only.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I've done all that. My TJR is now back to box stock. I learned, the money pit. Every mod leads to a new weak point, breakage and another "upgrade". With the Rubicon or the Power Wagon, I'd keep it box stock. The factory engineers have way more research & development money than any after market supplier. My mind & attitude have changed with 45 years of wheelin'. I know most vehicles are a much better balance of capable/reliable box stock than modified.

I'm betting 90% of the big budget builds never see any real off roading.

Some of these guys are pretty close to stock.
And I'd take any one of these CJs over a new Sierra with $50K in mods.

If that is what you want to do with a vehicle, I'm on your side there. If we are still talking overlanding I wouldn't want one for very long.
I'm not very fond of single use vehicles so pure rock crawlers are out for me. This little jeep would be just plain old fun for a little while.

 

[Billiebob]

If that is what you want to do with a vehicle, I'm on your side there. If we are still talking overlanding I wouldn't want one for very long.
I'm not very fond of single use vehicles so pure rock crawlers are out for me. This little jeep would be just plain old fun for a little while.

I really like small. I prefered a Datsun 1200 to a Trans Am in the 1970s. I loved the F250 Crewcab with a family but even found a 4Runner too big once we were empty nesters. And I hate indoor plumbing in an RV so yes, a TJR with a TearDrop is my dream way to Overland. There is very little to break or maintain leaving time away time to explore.

If I needed a pickup, it would be a stock regular cab Power Wagon with a clutch.
That little TJR sees a few 1500 mile trips every year.