Overlanding with an EV

[EV-offroad]

Where are you getting those figures? Those charging rates seem to be quite different from what I’ve seen. What city/region are you using charging rates for? Charging rates vary depending on region

You are correct. EV charging costs vary a lot based on region, size of the vehicle, private versus commercial, slow level 1 vs fast level 3 DC charger and the mix of renewable sources. In Maryland where I live, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 with 77kW battery costs about $0.14 per kW off the main grid or about $11 to fully charge. However, we pull off of a solar panel so it costs us closer to $6 instead. North Dakota charges about $0.10 per kW. The average cost per kW off the grid in the US is about $0.15. Thus a 40kW battery would cost $6, a 77kW $12, and 130kW EV would cost $20. This is still of course better than paying $100 for the same miles traveled with petrol.

Juicebox North America | Enel X Way USA - Creditor Claims Information

Creditor Claims Information

www.enelxway.com

 

[Tundracamper]

Ouch. that does add up. While electricity is also not free, depending on the source where it is generated, it is usually much less than petrol and oil costs. A rough estimate assuming the following; annual mileage of 15,000 would cost about $5,000 a year in petrol costs for you. A 130kW EV battery might cost about $10 to charge overnight at home and get you about 250 mile range in an SUV. Thus you would spend about $600 a year to recharge the EV (not including DC fast chargers which you might use occasionally at $25 a pop). Conservatively you would probably save about $3-4k per year. Hmmm

And you need to save that $3-4k in an account for when it comes time to replace the batteries. That runs what, $10-20k? I wonder if the EV trucks suffer from some of the same cold-weather issues that can impact the cars.

 

[EV-offroad]

Well that indeed is an important question. Best estimate is that if I needed to change the entire battery on my Ioniq 5 with the same 77kW battery pack it might cost $15k plus install. however there are a few things to consider. For starters, the battery should be good for 10-15 years and perhaps 300k miles or so. There is not much maintenance and the chassis and components on the car are supposed to last 500k miles or more with mostly simple aluminum parts. There are no oil changes, no spark plugs, no air, oil or gas filter, no transmission, and the brakes last 2x longer because of the regen system. Added to the fact that an EV never needs gas, the car saves me about $2k per year. After 12 years that’s a total of $24k saved an amount that could easily allow swapping out to a brand new battery pack. The other thing to remember is that battery technology is getting better and cheaper each year. Solid state batteries may one day provide twice the range and half the weight as current lithium ion packs. Most ICE cars and trucks also need serious work after 300k miles and may even need a new engine and trans at that stage. I would be willing to bet that in 15 years it will cost more to replace an engine and trans in an ICE vehicle than it would to get an entirely new solid state battery pack for an EV. But the ICE also costs an extra $2k per year just to run and maintain. There are a lot of assumptions here but it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Having owned an EV for two years now I can say that it has been great all around and saves a ton of money. As said a bunch of times before though, the main disadvantage of an EV is limited range in remote locations especially when super cold. That’s really the only downside I can think of now having some real life experience.

 

[rgallant]

@EV-offroad 12-15 year for a battery is a pipe dream, that tech is not new and battery functional lifetimes are pretty well known, the 5-7 year life time is currently accurate. While the battery may be usable beyond that range will start drop dramatically. Good battery management software and more slow charging than fast will extend the lifetime. Beyond that the biggest issue no one talks about is the limit supply of material to make batteries with, I bet is EV's will remain niche vehicles. Either that or most people will no longer have a vehicle and 2 will be the realm of the rich.

Given an EV has no practical resale valve at 7 years, (based on battery replacement costs) without massive investment put into battery construction design to make them easily recyclable and rebuildable EV's are a dead end.

And currently repair diagnostic and costs are stupidly expensive, when something goes wrong, which should theoretically go down a bit.

So the gas savings may be a bit of red herring.

 

[EV-offroad]

Understandably , there is still a lot of anxiety regarding EV range and battery life but most of that is not based on factual data. Most legitimate calculations estimate that EV batteries should last at least 10-12 years but probably more. There are a lot of reasons for this added life expectancy compared to say a laptop or cell phone lithium battery for example which gets degraded much faster. Here are a couple articles that might help allay the misperceptions.

How long do electric car batteries last? [May 2023] | EVBox

Did you know that EV batteries last between 15 to 20 years? Read everything about electric car battery life (and how to extend it) here (May 2023 update).

blog.evbox.com

.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44852031/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last/

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last#:~:text=In%20general%2C%20you%20can%20expect,10%20years%20or%20100%2C000%20miles

.

Just to get some other myths out of the way which have been covered previously:

Lithium is not scarce. It is one of the top 25 most abundant substances on earth. It can also be recycled in contrast to fossil fuels which when burnt, are gone forever. Copper and cobalt are actually more of a commodity but these are not required as much as lithium for an EV battery.

Lithium batteries are actually much safer than gasoline. Fires can occur but there is less combustable energy in lithium batteries compared to gasoline. There is a reason why you can bring lithium batteries on a plane but not a can of gasoline.

EVs are not a niche item anymore. EVs will almost certainly take over ICE more and more each year as people learn more about their benefits. I used to love my old ICE cars both gasoline and diesel but they will one day soon become relics of the past like the steam engine. Solid state lithium batteries will make the ICE go away even quicker. Almost 50% of all new cars in Europe are EVs now. In the US, we are only at 9% but will catch up some in the next five years.

The cost to repair a brand new EV is not that all different than a new ICE vehicle. In addition, EVs don't need much maintenance and have fewer moving parts. It's just a more simple technology.

I think thats the main myths we usually see but happy to discuss others. Having owned an EV for the past 2 years I can say it's a no brainer to get one for most scenarios other than perhaps living and traveling deep into remote tundras. As much as I used to love my V8 camaro and straight 4 Audi diesel, they just seem like toy antiques right now. The convenience and better technology aside, I could not justify the added expense of running an ICE car anymore. I don't like wasting money.

Nonetheless, even if the unusually low estimate of a "5-7" year battery life were correct, the IONIQ 5 comes with a 10 year battery warranty anyway. Thus for the sake of rhetoric, we will assume that the day after warranty expired, the entire battery would need to be replaced out of pocket (the IONIQ 5 battery is modular btw so only the dead cells would need replacement but let's ignore that for the moment). The current cost to replace the entire battery would be about $15,000 (although these costs are almost certainly going to decrease in the next decade). The cost saved from not purchasing gasoline is as we said earlier at least $1,500 per year. Thus, even assuming the worst possible case scenario and no improvement in battery technology over the next decade, it would still be economical to own an EV. Further, a brand new battery pack is essentially a brand new EV. In other words, if someone offered you a decade of free gasoline as long as you replace the ICE car engine at the ten year mark, it would be worth it.

Either way, the main reason I originally got into EVs was not so much because it saves a bunch of money, is better for the environment, and easier to maintain. It's because I no longer wanted to be dependent on Russian or Saudi oil. I'd rather rely on a more earth friendly battery made 100% in Texas (if a Tesla). So even if the money was a wash, it would still be worth it to me. The fact that the EV also saves money is just a bonus.

 

[rgallant]

@EV-offroad for me range is more an issue of there is notstandard for how it is calculated among manufacturers - leading to a lot of the range anxiety. It should a solid test across every maker, not marketing tool by some (Telsa). That is good news on the Ioniq battery that is how they all should be made, with dead cells easily replaceable.

And at least here in Canada EV's are very much niche, there is no where near enough charging infrastructure, and there is a pretty hard wall for condo, apartment and town house complexes. So far no one has an economical solution - the last quote I saw was about 15000+ per unit installed those are dual vehicle setups, but still out of reach for most condos.

As to battery fires, I suspect most bad BMS units it happens, it is concerning but that is it.

I get that there are fewer moving parts but several news storing have hit up here in Canada (out of Ontario) of $30000 to diagnose a vehicle shut down issue and in one case $65000 to replace a faulty battery. Those numbers are pretty hard to swallow, I get it is new tech with a very limited knowledge base but still.

Just to be clear I do not hate EV, to me they are just not a good solution, for a wide market place.

 

[John and Mandi]

@EV-offroad Either that or most people will no longer have a vehicle and 2 will be the realm of the rich.

Bing, bing, bing...we have a winner. If one were to spend time listening to what political and economic "leaders" have been saying for over a decade it is obvious what the long game is. I can't wait for a public emergency where all EVs are disabled to limit congestion to assist "responders" (for the good of the whole, of course). I would never purchase a vehicle that could prevent me from ever using or charging it, like Tesla did in certain areas during the energy crunch in California. Maybe, and that's a BIG maybe, if all the software controls are removed from making the vehicle a brick I'd consider one in 20 years. I'm not a fan of the rolling smart meters.

 

[EV-offroad]

@EV-offroad for me range is more an issue of there is notstandard for how it is calculated among manufacturers - leading to a lot of the range anxiety. It should a solid test across every maker, not marketing tool by some (Telsa). That is good news on the Ioniq battery that is how they all should be made, with dead cells easily replaceable.

And at least here in Canada EV's are very much niche, there is no where near enough charging infrastructure, and there is a pretty hard wall for condo, apartment and town house complexes. So far no one has an economical solution - the last quote I saw was about 15000+ per unit installed those are dual vehicle setups, but still out of reach for most condos.

As to battery fires, I suspect most bad BMS units it happens, it is concerning but that is it.

I get that there are fewer moving parts but several news storing have hit up here in Canada (out of Ontario) of $30000 to diagnose a vehicle shut down issue and in one case $65000 to replace a faulty battery. Those numbers are pretty hard to swallow, I get it is new tech with a very limited knowledge base but still.

Just to be clear I do not hate EV, to me they are just not a good solution, for a wide market place.

I would agree that EVs have their place. In regions of Canada that are colder, charging stations are less abundant, and cost to own an EV are higher, adoption is going to take time.

In contrast, in the US a new EV can be purchased for under $30k not including up to $7500 government rebate. The charging infrastructure is also getting very good with urban and suburban area having tons of charging stations.In our area solar energy gives us near free energy. Around here an ICE just does not make exonokical sense any more.

The other poster brought up another common concern regarding future grid shutdowns in California and Texas. We have heard this before along with the notions of government conspiracies about EV but most of these concerns are not real. Further, as mentioned previously there are increasing ways to safely offload electric grids with renewable sources of energy and storage. Solar and solid state batteries are just two examples. If there really was a zombie apocalypse you would better off with an EV and some portable solar panels than hunting for gasoline like a scene from mad max.

Having driven around Maryland in an EV for the past two years I can attest that it is a superior solution for oodles of reasons. It’s just more convenient, safer and saves a ton of money not to mention the reduction in carbon footprint and weaning of Russian and Saudi fossil fuels. But as many would agree in certain, colder, more remote regions of the world adoption of EVs will take some time.

 

[rgallant]

@EV-offroad it is nice to have a civilized conversation with differing viewpoints.

 

[John and Mandi]

 

[Tundracamper]

@EV-offroad it is nice to have a civilized conversation with differing viewpoints.

I certainly do agree. I do think his name should be “EVangelist” instead of “EV-offroad.” Being an engineer, I tend to look at it from a much more realistic standpoint. EVs have come a long way in the last 100 years. However, I still don’t believe they are the end-all solution. Moving a vehicle that big down the road just requires a certain amount of energy, regardless of where that energy comes from. In the EV case, one just defers the conversion process to the power plant as opposed to doing it under the hood. I predict in 25 years, after the very expensive infrastructure is in place and the electric grid has been upgraded to meet demand, prices for that energy will be just as much, if not more, than petroleum. To each his own - as long as we keep it that way!!

 

[EV-offroad]

I certainly do agree. I do think his name should be “EVangelist” instead of “EV-offroad.” Being an engineer, I tend to look at it from a much more realistic standpoint. EVs have come a long way in the last 100 years. However, I still don’t believe they are the end-all solution. Moving a vehicle that big down the road just requires a certain amount of energy, regardless of where that energy comes from. In the EV case, one just defers the conversion process to the power plant as opposed to doing it under the hood. I predict in 25 years, after the very expensive infrastructure is in place and the electric grid has been upgraded to meet demand, prices for that energy will be just as much, if not more, than petroleum. To each his own - as long as we keep it that way!!

As a scientist myself, I believe there are some good points there although with some caveats. The efficiency of producing energy from a power plant is much greater than producing energy on a single vehicle level. There is also no requirement for electricity to be produced by burning fossil fuels. No one would argue against the fact that petroleum has a much higher energy density than lithium ion but the lithium ion battery can be recharged by renewable sources, like wind, solar, biofuel, geothermal and hydro electric to name a few. As I mentioned earlier, like many of my neighbors, I actually charge my car mostly from solar energy. We in fact usually give energy back to the grid not vice versa. Each year solar panels, biofuels, geothermal energy, actually get less expensive not more expensive. In 25 years time, I would expect fusion reactors to be online as well. How the financial markets choose to make us pay for this is of course yet to be determined. Time will tell but we have been moving in the right direction in terms of cost and efficiency for the EV. Lithium battery prices have been dropping for a while (not withstanding a slight increase post pandemic). See below.

At any rate we digress. The topic of conversation on this forum usually turns to whether or not EVs make sense in general but many EV owners like myself have already moved past that because the gains are tangible and not subtle. Around here, near the cities and suburbs, the EV is a no brainer. A lot of us who own EVs have realized this with first hand experience for years. However, I started this post in part because the overlanding community, I would agree, may actually be the one place where an EV is not always an automatic no brainer. ie the desire to get lost in the wilderness and go "off the grid" is exactly what most EVs can not do. Thus, since I am thoroughly convinced that the EV makes sense for the majority of citizens in the US who need a car for daily communing, it is more interesting I believe to contemplate how one would navigate the remote backwoods of Wyoming with little access to DC fast chargers. We previously discussed the possibility of remote solar charging stations now becoming more realistic (jeep has already installed a dozen of these in remote areas of the US and the Australian outback). In addition, the sort of inspiration to engage with the great outdoors would, seem to me , fit better with the idea of harnessing sustainable energy rather than burning fossil fuel in a giant V8 diesel engine. Anyway, the point may be moot since we will eventually burn through our finite supplies of fossil fuel and will be forced to take on alternative energy sources anyway. Some of us just happen to be early adopters (at least for the pioneering overlanding side of the equation). For the moment i do not typically venture more than 100 miles away from an EV charger which works for me.

 

[Mogs And Dogs]

I certainly do agree. I do think his name should be “EVangelist” instead of “EV-offroad.” Being an engineer, I tend to look at it from a much more realistic standpoint. EVs have come a long way in the last 100 years. However, I still don’t believe they are the end-all solution. Moving a vehicle that big down the road just requires a certain amount of energy, regardless of where that energy comes from. In the EV case, one just defers the conversion process to the power plant as opposed to doing it under the hood. I predict in 25 years, after the very expensive infrastructure is in place and the electric grid has been upgraded to meet demand, prices for that energy will be just as much, if not more, than petroleum. To each his own - as long as we keep it that way!!

As a scientist myself, I believe there are some good points there although with some caveats. The efficiency of producing energy from a power plant is much greater than producing energy on a single vehicle level. There is also no requirement for electricity to be produced by burning fossil fuels. No one would argue against the fact that petroleum has a much higher energy density than lithium ion but the lithium ion battery can be recharged by renewable sources, like wind, solar, biofuel, geothermal and hydro electric to name a few. As I mentioned earlier, like many of my neighbors, I actually charge my car mostly from solar energy. We in fact usually give energy back to the grid not vice versa. Each year solar panels, biofuels, geothermal energy, actually get less expensive not more expensive. In 25 years time, I would expect fusion reactors to be online as well. How the financial markets choose to make us pay for this is of course yet to be determined. Time will tell but we have been moving in the right direction in terms of cost and efficiency for the EV. Lithium battery prices have been dropping for a while (not withstanding a slight increase post pandemic). See below.

At any rate we digress. The topic of conversation on this forum usually turns to whether or not EVs make sense in general but many EV owners like myslef have already moved past that because the gains are tangible and not subtle. Around here near the cities and suburbs the EV is a no brainer and a lot of us who own EVs have realized this with first hand experience for years. However, I started this post in part because the overlanding community, I would agree may actually be the one place where an EV is not always an automatic no brainer. ie the desire to get lost in the wilderness and go "off the grid" is exactly what most EVs can not do. Thus, since I am thoroughly convinced that the EV makes sense for the majority of citizens in the US who need a car for daily communing, it is more interesting I believe to contemplate how one would navigate the remote backwoods of Wyoming with little access to DC fast chargers. We previously discussed the possibility of remote solar charging stations now becoming more realistic (jeep has already installed a dozen of these in remote areas of the US and Australian outback). In addition, the sort of inspiration to engage with the great outdoors would, seem to me , fit better with the idea of harnessing sustainable energy rather than burning a giant V8 diesel engine. Anyway, the point may be moot at some point as we burn through finite supplies of fossil fuels and will be forced to take on alternatives anyway. Some of us just happen to be early adopters (at least for the pioneering overlanding side of the equation).


View attachment 272740

Your patience is outstanding.

 

[EV-offroad]

Your patience is outstanding.

haha. I'm a scientist and as most scientists do, we spend all day trying to prove each other and ourselves incorrect. We live more in a world of data not emotions per se. I drive an EV not because it fulfills a political agenda but because it makes economical and practical sense for this part of the world.

 

[grubworm]

it was scientists and engineers that predicted we'd all have flying cars by now...
(well...scientists, engineers, and hanna-barbera...)

 

[rgallant]

And jet packs damm it, but to fair Ev-points abut city use for Ev's are pretty valid in a lot of places, and finding better power generation is a good idea. But Wind and Solar are a best band aids on a commercial/utility scale as they are not power on demand but great for home owners.

On the off-road side I have always wondered if a small wind turbine could be used to provide power. Solar is great if the sun is shining, but combined with a small wind turbine, it could provide more constant power. Most the portables turbines I have seen, seem to have lots of marketing hype but no good reviews

 

[EV-offroad]

And jet packs damm it, but to fair Ev-points abut city use for Ev's are pretty valid in a lot of places, and finding better power generation is a good idea. But Wind and Solar are a best band aids on a commercial/utility scale as they are not power on demand but great for home owners.

On the off-road side I have always wondered if a small wind turbine could be used to provide power. Solar is great if the sun is shining, but combined with a small wind turbine, it could provide more constant power. Most the portables turbines I have seen, seem to have lots of marketing hype but no good reviews

Now we are talking. You are correct. The primary hurdle as I see it is less so the power generation per se and more about storage. Gasoline is, as you know packed with energy density compared lithium ion batteries. On the other hand fossil fuel stores are finite and worsen climate change more than electric solutions. Thus its all about storage. Lithium is batteries are the best we have right now for mobile storage (eg in an EV) but solid state will improve that by perhaps 100% more. ie solid state batteries may give EVs 600 miles range instead of 300 miles with current technology but they will be too expensive for at least another 5 years. As for storing energy at a stationary location there are actually many reasonably practical solutions including pumping water to higher levels and then converting this to electricity on demand. Pumping air into high pressure chambers combined with biofuels is another potentially good one. Generation of hydrogen for storage as well has been proposed.

Anyway, I think we will get there. EVs with existing battery technology already make a ton of sense for city and suburb driving less than 100 miles a day. Regarding using an EV for remote overlanding experiences (the main reason for initiating this post) the primary debate is really about storage of electricity in remote locations, not whether an EV itself is capable. Affordable, energy efficient, safe and environmentally sensible remote energy storage options are what interests me the most. As more remote charging/storage stations crop up we may be able to have our cake and eat it too.

Here is one example of an emerging technology that might help.

Can compressed air energy storage solve the long-duration dilemma?

The compressed air energy storage revival is driven by a need to solve the problem of long-duration energy storage.

www.renewableenergyworld.com

 

[MOAK]

My son in law is an avid EV consumer. First a model S and now a model Y. He even had an EV motorcycle. He was waiting to see how the cyber truck would do as compared to the Rivian and was going to get one or the other. A bit of research has brought him to the conclusion that it will be quite a number of years, maybe decades, before a kitted out EV overlander wagon or pick up truck will have enough range to get to even a couple of the campsites that we have been to and plan on going to. Don't quote me on exact numbers , as this is off the top off my head, but some studies have been done and when you fully load a Ford F350 diesel, you lose roughly 54% in MPG versus an empty truck. The gasoline engine loses roughly 48% in MPG versus an empty truck. A similar GVRWed EV loses 75% when fully loaded. He will be keeping his 5th gen 4runner and begin building it up a bit. I think an auxiliary fuel tank is high on his list along with a new suspension.

 

[EV-offroad]

My son in law is an avid EV consumer. First a model S and now a model Y. He even had an EV motorcycle. He was waiting to see how the cyber truck would do as compared to the Rivian and was going to get one or the other. A bit of research has brought him to the conclusion that it will be quite a number of years, maybe decades, before a kitted out EV overlander wagon or pick up truck will have enough range to get to even a couple of the campsites that we have been to and plan on going to. Don't quote me on exact numbers , as this is off the top off my head, but some studies have been done and when you fully load a Ford F350 diesel, you lose roughly 54% in MPG versus an empty truck. The gasoline engine loses roughly 48% in MPG versus an empty truck. A similar GVRWed EV loses 75% when fully loaded. He will be keeping his 5th gen 4runner and begin building it up a bit. I think an auxiliary fuel tank is high on his list along with a new suspension.

Hmmm those numbers seem a bit pessimistic, not saying incorrect but consider the following. I transformed my IONIQ 5 to the most inefficient version of itself one could possibly imagine and its not horrible. My IONIQ 5 has 6% larger tires with all terrain traction, a 3" lift kit, a hugely non-aerodynamic roof basket, and I stuffed the basket with a 60lb spare tire and wheel. There is another 100lbs to carry from the added tow hitch. I load the car with gear, my kids and gf and drive in cold weather at 70 mph which is not an efficient speed for any vehicle. With all that tomfoolery, the range drops from about 250 miles down to 175. Thats a big range hit for sure but it does not really affect my habits on long trips. Basically with all that absurd behavior I can still drive for 2 hours at a clip before its time to stop for a 20 minute quick charge. 20 minutes is usually just the right amount of time to use the facilities and grab a small sandwich. For example, I drove from Maryland to the Martha's vineyard ferry in Massachusetts (450 miles) and only had to stop twice which I would have done anyway even with an ICE vehicle. On more of an outback excursion to West Virginia and western PA I get even better range because I can only drive 40-50mph on back roads. The hills don't matter much because the regen braking helps a lot. Basically, during those sort of trips I get about 200-225 mile range.

The Rivian is awesome albeit expensive. The large pack Rivian is supposed to get 350 mile range under ideal conditions. The Rivian does not need a lift kit. Any added gear would amount to a smaller percent contribution to the weight of the car compared to the IONIQ 5 since it is already a 2000lb heavier vehicle. I would take an educated guess and say that traveling backroads at around 50mph with a few hills and the occasional dirt road, loaded with gear, the Rivian might get around 250-275 mile range. Thus, it all depends on where you plan to go. If camping off grid with no access to power at all then you don't want to drive more than about 100 miles away from civilization. If the remote camp location has at least a 120V power source then you could charge the 135kW Rivian in about two days. That would allow you to go 200 miles into the thick. As mentioned earlier, deep 400 mile treks into the remote tundra are a no go at this time for an EV. I am nonetheless intrigued by the soon to come prospect of remote solar power stations (like Jeep is building now) and solid state lithion ion battery technology with double the range (too expensive at the moment but probably less than 5 years away).

 

[MOAK]

The numbers are quite accurate. Even with an 18 wheeler- empty around 12-13 mpg. Add a trailer and a load, 6 mpg. If and when an EV fully loaded traveling in cold weather, (not the namby pamby cold here in the east) attains a 400 mile range, that would get even the most pessimistic person, to pay attention. Currently and into the near future EVs are a great choice for suburbanites. Long distance back country touring? Not for quite sometime. I’ll be dead & gone.