Overlanding with an EV

[Arailt]

A phenomenon that I experienced with every ev I drove was that it dropped the range unexpectedly after an overtaking without regenerating. A few seconds of higher demand ate 100km range and that makes sense with how the batteries work...
That is something that is a huge problem for overlanding.

I rented a Hyundai Kona EV in PA last summer. I drove it for a week and I had a similar experience with the range. After living in Dallas, I don't drive anywhere slow (meaning the "speed limit" ;)). I found that if I pushed the little Hyundai, the range would fall drastically. Driving around Pittsburgh for the day would leave me with less than 50 miles remaining, and we would never cover more than 150 miles in a day. Same with using AC and even the radio. I would start out with a 300 mile range, but less than a mile down the road, it would would be in the 270 range. Super annoying. Also, nobody mentions that they take like 60 hours to charge in a standard outlet.

I can't imagine what the Texas heat would do to efficiency when it's 115 in the shade down here, of vice versa when it's -10 for a month in the north. No thanks. Long live the gassers.

 

[EV-offroad]

Indeed range is still paramount in determining the feasibility of specific applications for any EV. Nonetheless, radio and AC unit don’t effect range very much. Very cold weather a bit. Some added weight is usually not that noticeable hit on range either since EVs are heavy on there own and another 500 lbs is a minor smaller percentage increase. The primary factors in limiting range are flooring it a lot and/or wind resistance with speeds over 65mph.

For example cruising moderately around town and suburbs at 30-40 mph average I will get 280 mile range. On a recent trip up north traveling at 75mph with a roof rack and tire mounted up there I got 180mile only range. That was fine for my application since I did not mind stopping after 2.5 hours to top off. The IONiQ 5 recharges in 18 minutes on a fast charger just enough to grab a coffee and use the facilities. It’s a small price to pay for not needing gas, never needing an oil change, or worrying about a radiator leak. The simplicity of an EV is a main attraction for me having broke down in an old ICE Camaro in the past.

Thus as was previously discussed most EVs may not be the most convenient choice for deep treks into rural Wyoming or Alaska. But there are many applications and 200 mile camping excursions where they work great. Maybe the Jeep hybrid is a better choice for the 400 mile treks.

During the 2 weeks I lost my EV for doing all the suspension mods I had to get a rental. Two $50 gas station visits where I had to fumble around in the rain and cold reminded how much I enjoyed simply toping off the EV at home once a week while I sleep. For me itan EV isa no brainer. Will never go back to ICE as much as I will always miss the sound of my 327 V8. I suppose it’s creature preference and specific use scenario that factors most.

 

[Arailt]

A small price to pay for not paying for gas, never needing an oil change or worrying about a radiator leak. The simplicity of an EV is a main attraction for me having broke down in an old ICE Camaro in the past

You pay for electricity, right? Battery replacement if you hold on long term ($20k+).

In 24 years of driving and off-roading, I've never had a radiator leak (and that includes beating the living daylights out of several Jeeps haha). Oil changes are like $50-$100 a year depending on vehicle.

Also really not sure why you keep comparing your new EV to a 60 year old, lead fuel sucking, carbureted Chevy as a benchmark for gas mileage or reliability. That's totally not something a bot would do.

 

[rgallant]

It is part of the problem with EV marketing - they keep talking about repairs but in normal use a new ICE and EV would have no significant repair costs over the 1st 7 years. Brakes on the maybe twice on both. So what is left oil changes and air filter changes and that is pretty trivial as well.

Once we get to 7 years or so and EV range starts to drop is where the problems start, that old IE will still get about the same mileage. Some additional repairs maybe be required but 5000 to 7000 for a new battery unlikely.

 

[EV-offroad]

You pay for electricity, right? Battery replacement if you hold on long term ($20k+).

In 24 years of driving and off-roading, I've never had a radiator leak (and that includes beating the living daylights out of several Jeeps haha). Oil changes are like $50-$100 a year depending on vehicle.

Also really not sure why you keep comparing your new EV to a 60 year old, lead fuel sucking, carbureted Chevy as a benchmark for gas mileage or reliability. That's totally not something a bot would do.

I would expect that in 15 years by the time a new battery is needed for the EV it will cost less than what an engine replacement would cost not to mention the 15 years of ICE maintenance and as you say oil changes. Most EV platforms are so simple that they are expected to get 500k or more without a hitch. To bring things more current than my old Camaro we had a Volvo station wagon that lasted fairly long and an Audi A3 that was a gem but both needed more and more attention after just 3-4 years of driving. The EV is basically a battery and electric motor on a skateboard chassis and that’s it. Ridiculously simple. Reliability and ease of operation and maintenance are not even in the same ballpark compared to an ICE which we have all grown up used to dealing with. I actually liked changing my oil and rotating my tires myself now and then. But I don’t miss it enough to go back to ICE now that I’m spoiled with the EV. It costs about $4 in electricity to charge my EV compared to $40 to fuel my old ICE. Electricity is not fossil fuel zero or free but much more efficient than gas cars or trucks.

Remember too that most EVs are kind of still in the model T stage or thereabouts compared to ICE in terms of experience and engineering. 100 years of engineering with ICE platforms have gotten them pretty darn good. The IONIQ 5 with its long range and super fast charging is sort of live EV version 3.0 which is getting pretty darn good already. Within just 10 years EVs have gone from useless, to very niche toys, to helpful in the city, to a logical choice for many applications. It remains to be seen whether or not the lithium ion EV platform will ever be the right choice for frequent 400 mile Alaskan wilderness treks.

 

[Arailt]

I would expect that in 15 years by the time a new battery is needed for the EV it will cost less than what an engine replacement would cost not to mention the 15 years of ICE maintenance and as you say oil changes. Most EV platforms are so simple that they are expected to get 500k or more without a hitch. The EV is basically a battery and electric motor on a skateboard chassis and that’s it. Ridiculously simple.

I think that's wishful thinking and more EV marketing propaganda. You still have suspension systems (even more complex than most with leveling, adjustable dampening, etc on some EVs), driveline (wheel bearings, CVs), electrical systems with sensors, cameras, steering racks, brakes, and HVAC including electric heaters. The majority of repairs on my vehicles over time have been suspension wear items like control arms, struts, bushings, CVs, etc. and electrical like window motors, seat motors, etc. It's rare if ever that a motor needs replaced during the usable life of a non-commercial passenger vehicle. It's inevitable that a battery will need to be replaced. Projections are 8-15 years lifespan depending on amount of charges. I've seen work orders for over $20,000.00 to replace. That's a hell of a lot of oil changes.

 

[EV-offroad]

I think that's wishful thinking and more EV marketing propaganda. You still have suspension systems (even more complex than most with leveling, adjustable dampening, etc on some EVs), driveline (wheel bearings, CVs), electrical systems with sensors, cameras, steering racks, brakes, and HVAC including electric heaters. The majority of repairs on my vehicles over time have been suspension wear items like control arms, struts, bushings, CVs, etc. and electrical like window motors, seat motors, etc. It's rare if ever that a motor needs replaced during the usable life of a non-commercial passenger vehicle. It's inevitable that a battery will need to be replaced. Projections are 8-15 years lifespan depending on amount of charges. I've seen work orders for over $20,000.00 to replace. That's a hell of a lot of oil changes.

I agree that time will tell if EV actually saves money or not over 20 years. It’s too early to tell. I can tell you from my own experience that I already saved $2000 worth of gas, two oil changes, and a brake service. Since I use the regen braking a lot the brakes still look new after a couple years of driving pretty hard. There is added weight to stop a 4500lb EV but so far brakes looks like they will last a long time. Battery replacement right now for a BMW i3 is about $12k and Chevy bolt is about $15k. If prices in lithium batteries continue to drop as they would be expected $7k for a replacement in 2033 is reasonable. Even if it costs $20k, I would have saved $40k in gas. Time will tell but so far so good.

I don’t think I’m a robot but if I were I probably would not know how to tell the difference.

 

[grubworm]

I don’t think I’m a robot

well..here's your chance...

 

[smritte]

I agree that time will tell if EV actually saves money or not over 20 years. It’s too early to tell.

My brother in law has a fairly large fleet. We ran the numbers last year with him buying 200 Tesla awd trucks (I know, their not released yet). Within 4 years, they would have payed for themselves. This is counting maintenance and fuel for high mileage.

Cost over time wise. 2020 6cly engine replacement in say 10 years at "Todays" prices can be ~18k + without the trans (which is worn out also). Trans high cost is 7k-8k. Normal projected life span of the battery pack is over 50% longer. That means at todays prices, battery packs are either slightly cheaper or a push in the way of cost. The reason the engine and trans cost is high is, modern engines almost across the board are not designed to be rebuilt. Its also more cost effective to replace transmissions rather than rebuild.

Motor packs right now are seeing 250k with normal maintenance. Based on wear patterns so far, new projections are 800k+ on motor packs. Maintenance consists of the same as normal cars, bearings, tie rods... Just not water pumps, radiators....

Unfortunately neither vehicle will hold up to 500k. Body fatigue, weather strips, upholstery.... will have severely worn out by then. Where the EV will really shine is low years super high mileage like by brother in laws fleet.

 

[smritte]

well..here's your chance...

Sorry Grub, there's algorithms to bypass those.
It still could be a robot.

 

[Sea Diamond]

This has all been very interesting and thought provoking. It does have me wondering how well received was the internal combination engine back in the day. Especially by those who loved their stables, not to mention their favorite steed. But for sure we are at an important junction whether we like it or not...as tech continues to advance in leaps and bounds.

Heck...I remember digging in my heels and resisting the benefits of CNC technology. Not because I thought it wasn't a good idea...but because of my love for capturing shape. We are emotional creatures...just go ask Paul Bunyan.

Anyways...I'm gonna go and sleep outside for a while...just another thing to ponder ;-)

 

[MazeVX]

At this point I truly believe we have been infiltrated by a bot or a Religious fanatic on a missionary mission.

Oh and to add some substance...
my diesel currently driven with 33% regenerative fuel (blue diesel) is more sustainable than an EV considering it's possible lifespan and and the apocalyptic side effects of unrestricted lithium and cobalt mining.
Not to mention the cashflow to questionable companies, countries and individuals.
And the best side effect is it gets better fuel mileage and runs smoother with lesser soot.

Now, lean back and watch it burn...

 

[EV-offroad]

At this point I truly believe we have been infiltrated by a bot or a Religious fanatic on a missionary mission.

Oh and to add some substance...
my diesel currently driven with 33% regenerative fuel (blue diesel) is more sustainable than an EV considering it's possible lifespan and and the apocalyptic side effects of unrestricted lithium and cobalt mining.
Not to mention the cashflow to questionable companies, countries and individuals.
And the best side effect is it gets better fuel mileage and runs smoother with lesser soot.

Now, lean back and watch it burn...

This post has gone off the deep end for sure. I’m actually not sure if I am a bot anymore because I was unable to click the “are you a robot” gif.

I do stand by the fact that my IONIQ 5 seems to be saving me money and has been maintenance free despite my best effort. Driving 500 miles up the east coast was a joy with only two 20 minutes stops to recharge. While I do know that lithium and cobalt are not actually that rare, there are always politics to mining especially if it impacts the bottom line for big oil companies. As a consumer I have been very happy with the EV so far. I will not however be driving to Anchorage any time soon with my EV. I would not do it with a hoarse and carriage either. I guess there will possibly always be a niche for ICE for a while to come.

come apocalypse time, whether induced by burning fossil fuels or mining lithium, the EV and some portable solar panels would be my choice versus a mad max hemi ICE fighting for drops of petrol. Cool movie though.

anyway I guess there are no EV overlanders on this site interested in mods because either

a) EV owners are conservative city dwellers who get their windshield washer fluid filled by a service team or

b) most serious overlanders still dream of getting lost 400 miles deep into the Wyoming tundra far away from available charging networks

 

[EV-offroad]

I'm not going to go into the logistics involved here. People need to stop thinking small, look at world market and not just cars. Now the supply as well as the mining for just lithium, not the other minerals just became more difficult.



Not true at all. Almost all of the information published is completely outdated. Look at the emissions on a modern 4L engine, compare it to to the same displacement from the 90's and the 80's. Now compare to published data. You will notice the published emissions don't match modern vehicles. That's just cars. Now look towards the carbon foot print around the power generation, manufacturing of batteries and mining of the materials. Compile that data and compare it to the same with a petrol vehicle.


Petroleum based again = more emissions.



Don't look at it from a distance point of view. Change to a driving off road point of view. You want your off road vehicle as light as possible. "Floating" the vehicle over soft ground becomes more difficult the heavier you get. You need to offset this with taller/wider tires. Now that we changed tire size, the software is no longer calibrated to the vehicle, loosing efficiency.

Most of the public information is based on propaganda and outdated technology. If that's true, why am I so sure about what I say? Because I teach Hybrid/EV for three manufactures. I'm required to stay on top of current technology as well as older technology. I can also teach vehicle emission classes even though I chose not to.

When you step back, take everything into consideration regarding EV vs Petrol. This is from start to finish, building parts, assemble and drive, you find Petrol has a much smaller carbon foot print and pound for pound contains way more energy then battery.

I'm not against electric anything. The technology needs to evolve and it may not do that properly now that its being used as a political stage. Politics is what caused battery technology to flatline in the late 90's. If it wasn't for Musk, we would still be there.

Some good points but from the data I have read and scoured through, EVs do in fact have a much smaller carbon footprint especially in states where electricity is more green. I am not an EV engineer but I am a professor, teacher and scientist at a major university and I am capable of scrutinizing quality data. There is an old phrase, garbage in garbage out, used for statistics and AI learning. Thus the quality of the data is important I agree.

EPA reports that EVs have a significantly smaller carbon footprint on average. Several large studies suggest that. Yes there is always a chance it’s a conspiracy from Elon Musk. It is also possibly true.

 

[Tundracamper]

Remember too that most EVs are kind of still in the model T stage or thereabouts compared to ICE in terms of experience and engineering. 100 years of engineering with ICE platforms have gotten them pretty darn good. The IONIQ 5 with its long range and super fast charging is sort of live EV version 3.0 which is getting pretty darn good already. Within just 10 years EVs have gone from useless, to very niche toys, to helpful in the city, to a logical choice for many applications. It remains to be seen whether or not the lithium ion EV platform will ever be the right choice for frequent 400 mile Alaskan wilderness treks.

Not true. Electric cars are just as old, if not older, than gassers. The ENTIRE issue with EVs is battery capacity. Batteries have advanced SIGNIFICANTLY in the last 100 years and we are just now getting to the point where it is even remotely feasible to get a decent EV range. To fool yourself into thinking there will be huge jumps in range as battery technology “matures” is just being naive or perhaps even ignorant. More range = more batteries = more weight = more cost = longer charging times - period.

 

[EV-offroad]

Lithium sulfur, ceramic oxygen, solid state, aqueous magnesium and other batteries may not be that far away. To assume that we would not improve on lithium ion would in fact be naive. Only a big oil bot would suggest otherwise. Ha

we do agree on one thing. While lithium ion technology has allowed us to do some really amazing things with cars, boats, drones and even airplanes we can do better. I don’t think we are talking centuries, likely within this decade. For now lithium ion seem to be fantastic solution for my purposes.

EVs though will in fact improve beyond this early mass adoption phase which it would be hard to argue that it is anything but in its infancy.

 

[DintDobbs]

@Arailt Excuse me, did you say $50-100 per year for oil changes? I pay in that range just for one oil change. (I know this is off topic, but sheesh!)

@Tundracamper Look on the bright side, though. Electric cars had a small edge on the very start of horseless carriages (as opposed to steam-powered ones, nobody complains about external-combustion engines being replaced, ha ha) but were quickly replaced by ICE's during a time when horses were still the go-to.

Electricity in homes had to replace gas-lights and indoor plumbing had to replace outhouses and wash basins.

Sure, the old way worked well enough, but as time went by, and societal norms shifted with the generations, you weren't as valuable in society if you couldn't take a hot 5-minute shower, eat breakfast, and drive 20 miles to work, within an hour. Horses and buggies still work, and nobody needs a telephone, and you can live just as well without electricity.

Electric road vehicles are not a realistic means of addressing pollution. We know this. If they were, they'd be exploring electric mining and farming equipment, boats, airplanes... if it's universally superior, all fronts will accept it. It isn't, so the government is pushing it, much like it pushed all those other things that we know and love today, but they didn't want 100 years ago.

The world isn't changing, just the brands on the boxes are.

 

[EV-offroad]

@Arailt Excuse me, did you say $50-100 per year for oil changes? I pay in that range just for one oil change. (I know this is off topic, but sheesh!)

@Tundracamper Look on the bright side, though. Electric cars had a small edge on the very start of horseless carriages (as opposed to steam-powered ones, nobody complains about external-combustion engines being replaced, ha ha) but were quickly replaced by ICE's during a time when horses were still the go-to.

Electricity in homes had to replace gas-lights and indoor plumbing had to replace outhouses and wash basins.

Sure, the old way worked well enough, but as time went by, and societal norms shifted with the generations, you weren't as valuable in society if you couldn't take a hot 5-minute shower, eat breakfast, and drive 20 miles to work, within an hour. Horses and buggies still work, and nobody needs a telephone, and you can live just as well without electricity.

Electric road vehicles are not a realistic means of addressing pollution. We know this. If they were, they'd be exploring electric mining and farming equipment, boats, airplanes... if it's universally superior, all fronts will accept it. It isn't, so the government is pushing it, much like it pushed all those other things that we know and love today, but they didn't want 100 years ago.

The world isn't changing, just the brands on the boxes are.

Some good points although worth noting;

electric farm equipment

Electrification

We're innovating with less environmental impact by introducing zero-emissions electric and hybrid-electric solutions to new fields of work by 2026.

www.deere.com

electric mining equipment

Electric loaders

Today, choosing electric power over diesel may not seem like a big deal. But safer working conditions, a better standing in the community and lower operational costs all add up to something very big.

www.epiroc.com

electric boats

High Voltage - 10 Electric Boats to Watch For in 2023

It's no secret -- electric boating is coming. That brings with it a fair share of opinions, and there are good arguments on both sides. Gas-powered engines have been the backbone of boating since the advent of the internal combustion engine, so that makes for a strong track record going back...

www.boatblurb.com

Electric airplanes

Electric airplanes Archives

electrek.co

Air Force F-X concept: a fuel-sipping electric fighter jet for 2030

The U.S. Air Force is working to produce its next-generation fighter jet, the "F-X," which will use a hybrid electrical system to enable new technologies.

www.zdnet.com

.

Electric road vehicles reduce pollution compared to gas cars

Electric Vehicle Myths | US EPA

Facts and myths about electric vehicles.

www.epa.gov

Electric may not be universally superior but perhaps a great option for several things

 

[leeloo]

I would expect that in 15 years by the time a new battery is needed for the EV it will cost less than what an engine replacement would cost not to mention the 15 years of ICE maintenance and as you say oil changes. Most EV platforms are so simple that they are expected to get 500k or more without a hitch. To bring things more current than my old Camaro we had a Volvo station wagon that lasted fairly long and an Audi A3 that was a gem but both needed more and more attention after just 3-4 years of driving. The EV is basically a battery and electric motor on a skateboard chassis and that’s it. Ridiculously simple. Reliability and ease of operation and maintenance are not even in the same ballpark compared to an ICE which we have all grown up used to dealing with. I actually liked changing my oil and rotating my tires myself now and then. But I don’t miss it enough to go back to ICE now that I’m spoiled with the EV. It costs about $4 in electricity to charge my EV compared to $40 to fuel my old ICE. Electricity is not fossil fuel zero or free but much more efficient than gas cars or trucks.

Remember too that most EVs are kind of still in the model T stage or thereabouts compared to ICE in terms of experience and engineering. 100 years of engineering with ICE platforms have gotten them pretty darn good. The IONIQ 5 with its long range and super fast charging is sort of live EV version 3.0 which is getting pretty darn good already. Within just 10 years EVs have gone from useless, to very niche toys, to helpful in the city, to a logical choice for many applications. It remains to be seen whether or not the lithium ion EV platform will ever be the right choice for frequent 400 mile Alaskan wilderness treks.

A bit optimistic there. There is one thing that is complex in any EV or plug in hybrid for that matter, that is the cooling system. Right now most of them have about 3 separate cooling systems. They have 2 ways and 3 way valves, some electric heating elements, will be hard to diagnose. IT will fail, hoses get brittle, valves get stuck, and so on.. Most have heat pumps, and the cost on those if they fail is of course, astronomical. It is basically a 2 way ac compressor, but because it is called a heat pump.... price goes up. How do I know ? well in the 4xe there is something called coolant heating element, basically a simple resitor like you find in a kettle priced at 600 USD :) . I would guess a heat pump starts at 3 k easy.
So it is not so rosy and maintenance free...

 

[Arailt]

@Arailt Excuse me, did you say $50-100 per year for oil changes? I pay in that range just for one oil change. (I know this is off topic, but sheesh!)

Haha, yep. I've been running full synthetic in my vehicles for years. One change per year or 10k. If I do it myself, it's 50-60 bucks. If I pay Lexus to do it, the cost is $90.