Off road trailer tongue

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Jeep backroads

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I think my tongue is to long. Any ideas on the best lenght ? I know it needs to be long enough to jack knife it but to long and the tongue drags on cresting a rock or steep break over angle. What’s your opinion on the correct length. Also with a longer one do you lose tongue weight? Thanks Tim
 

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Loanrangie

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I think you mean drawbar, longer is better but there will be an optimum length where the trailer is nicely balanced with the right amount of down force on the ball. Probably not so much an issue with a smaller trailer like yours though but you don't want it skittish at highway speeds.
 
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old_man

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The tongue on my trailer is also long but like you say it tows great. The first advantage is that I can turn sharply (>90 degrees) without binding the tongue. The worst part is that as you turn a corner, the trailer tracks further to the inside than your vehicle. I am working on a solution for that, but I will wait to discuss it till later.

The shorter the tongue the harder it it to control when you are backing up and it will tend to whip going down the road easier. So in short, it is a tradeoff. Pay your money and take your pick.

Personally my recommendation, looking at your rig, is that you shorten but leave it long enough that you can put the tow vehicle at 90 degrees to the tongue without hitting the trailer. Just a guess from the pix would be to shorten it maybe a foot.

Having your vehicle hitch extend back as far as it does will help with the trailer shortcutting the corners but will make trailer whipping way more probable. This is why they have 5th wheel trailers, they don't whip.
 

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It's been a while since I did the tongue length on my M-100. If I remember right, I measured the distance on my TJ wheels, center to center. Then from trailer wheel center to ball mount pivot. When I turned it followed my track almost exact. The trailer width was also almost the same as the TJ.
The problem I ran into was my tire hit the trailer box when jack knifing. I ended up making a four inch extension and it didn't effect the turning too much.

For yours, if you shorten it, you may have to add tongue weight. Mine has a box with tools and a battery. It tows very well at freeway speeds. I've sold the TJ and now that I tow with my Cruiser, the tongue is a bit short and hits the box if I jack knife but still tows well.

TJ and Trailer.jpg
Early picture before adding to tongue

cruiser and trailer.jpg
Needs to be a bit longer here but still tows well
 

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The tongue should be no longer than 12” more than half the width of the tow vehicle. No shorter than 4” more than half the width of the tow vehicle. Mine comes in at 4” longer than half the width of my cruzer which is good. You won’t notice any difference in handling on the highway as long as you have proper tongue weight, at least 10% and not more than 15% of the trailer weight. The longer tongue reduces tongue weight. I’ve pulled all kinds of trailers, and I much prefer shorter tongues. The trailer is much more stable and follows much better. When backing up a shorter tongue demands a higher degree of attention as they will get away from you easier than a long tongue.
 
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OverlandZJ

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^^ Good input..

My tongue is longer than most, but it's towed fine at 70mph on a few trips now. I dont anticipate many tight trails where a bit of tracking loss should effect my personal usage these days.

The idea behind it is i wanted to be able to slide the bunk forward while still attached vehicle, and be able to open the hatch. There's a rack in front of the box cut and tacked together in garage i'v yet to burn in. It's a work in progress..sept201910.jpg
 
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MoreGone

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These guys seem to know about the proportions and whatnot.

I'll just add make sure if you shorten in you can still open your hatch. I'm looking to lengthen my trailer because it prevents me from fully opening the hatch which also means I can't open the glass fully. Annoying.

But it is very nimble on the trails and very twitchy backing up.

IMG_20200417_145950.jpg
 
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old_man

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^^ Good input..

My tongue is longer than most, but it's towed fine at 70mph on a few trips now. I dont anticipate many tight trails where a bit of tracking loss should effect my personal usage these days.

The idea behind it is i wanted to be able to slide the bunk forward while still attached vehicle, and be able to open the hatch. There's a rack in front of the box cut and tacked together in garage i'v yet to burn in. It's a work in progress..
Nice looking setup. Looks very practical
 
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OverlandZJ

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Nice looking setup. Looks very practical

Thank's Tom.. funny you use the term practical, you might remember i wasnt happy with the XJ and RTT combo. I'm much more satisfied with this setup now.

Hope life has calmed down a bit for ya, remember you spending alot of time away from home for work. Go enjoy that teardrop..
 

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^^ Good input..

My tongue is longer than most, but it's towed fine at 70mph on a few trips now. I dont anticipate many tight trails where a bit of tracking loss should effect my personal usage these days.

The idea behind it is i wanted to be able to slide the bunk forward while still attached vehicle, and be able to open the hatch. There's a rack in front of the box cut and tacked together in garage i'v yet to burn in. It's a work in progress..
I gotta ask, what are the dimensions of that tongue? It looks toothpick like in the photo. And, do you trust it would survive a lot of downward thrust? I’ve seen photos of trailers that have bent the frame rails of the tow vehicle because of downward thrust. Just asking, I’m a tad concerned for you..
 

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^ thats from people driving beyond their vehicles limits. plenty of people doing that without trailers as well.
 

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This is very interesting to me because I have a 2018 zr2 and the same socal 459 Krawler teardrop. I had it on the Mojave road in 2019. The hoop-dies are a pain on the trail with a trailer. I set the trailer brakes to be more sensitive so it would help slow the truck down and pull on the truck so not to rear-end me when hitting the brakes. I also drove slower than the rest of the group I was with. Before I purchased my 459 krawler I rented one from off-the-grid to see if I wanted to invest in a socal teardrop as they are expensive to say the least. The brakes on the rental didn't feel like they worked very well if at all. That could have been a problem for the zr2 and the jeep with the bent frames. No trailer brakes, too fast on the trail, larger tires, shocks. The combination my have been to much.
 
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MOAK

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^ thats from people driving beyond their vehicles limits. plenty of people doing that without trailers as well.
Well sure, that’s what I’m asking, a tongue that long without reenforcemrnt looks as if itcould easily be in a scenario beyond its means.
 

OverlandZJ

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I gotta ask, what are the dimensions of that tongue? It looks toothpick like in the photo. And, do you trust it would survive a lot of downward thrust? I’ve seen photos of trailers that have bent the frame rails of the tow vehicle because of downward thrust. Just asking, I’m a tad concerned for you..
2x2 1/4" wall, runs from rear receiver to receiver at front, gusseted in along the modified stock frame. This camper weighed in ~600lbs in stock form, it might be ~1K lbs today. I believe it's gonna be ok..

Colorado5.jpg
 
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MOAK

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2x2 1/4" wall, runs from rear receiver to receiver at front, gusseted in along the modified stock frame. This camper weighed in ~600lbs in stock form, it might be ~1K lbs today. I believe it's gonna be ok..

View attachment 157094
Very nice build, now that's the important stuff, whats underneath. 1,000 lbs is very light.
 
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smritte

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I want to comment on the bent trucks and the linked video. They did a good job theorizing and a good job dispelling some of the myths. Where they hit it dead on was talking about the "crumple zones"
Here's some examples. 1988 GM comes out with a new gen truck. They lightened the frame for mileage,over all weight and designed the frame to absorb shock from collision. This did not cause an issue as long as you didn't overload the truck. No one evidently thought about lifting the truck on a "side by side" hoist. When we did, the truck bent. We also got trucks in with bent frames due to people overloading them.
1990, a stronger frame was released.
Ford Raptor. We have all seen pictures of the first gen Raptor with bent frames. All the same "theorizing" went on. The truck frame was designed to absorb impact and drive on dirt roads, not be abused on whoops and jumps.

Old truck frames were designed over kill. Strong and heavy. On collision, the energy was transferred through the vehicle into the passengers. When I was with GM, I attended classes on this and saw videos of the testing. The classes were more towards airbags but included frame/body also.

I'm building my first hard sided trailer. I spent a couple of years thinking about it and looking at what other people have done and watched how these trailers work off road in some of my groups.
A few things stood out to me in the builds. First was tongue length and tongue weight. The So Cal Tear Drop shop is near my house so I see these in person. The tongue weight is quite high by itself and they give you a real long space to add in all kinds of extra weight. Add in how far the axle is placed on the trailer and you have a very nice handling trailer for the street. Next, factor in the down force generated by the brakes. They are not the only ones who build like this.

One word come to mind here, "Leverage". Start with a modern frame designed to absorb. Add in a ton of leverage on the hitch. At this point whats happening on the frame? Your flexing the crumple area slightly. As the metal flexes like its designed to, there's going to be a focal spot on the frame where it goes from hard to soft. That area is going to fatigue. This is not something that happens instantly but over time.
Try to keep up with the guys not towing and hit an unseen dip. Now the frame starts to bend and you have a weak spot. You can guess the rest from there.

If the frame is fatigued but didn't bend, you would never know. Over the years I've looked at a bunch of bent frames from off-road. When we build desert trucks, we make the suspension do all the work and limit how much flexing the frame does. If you look into some of the older vehicles driven off road you find it wasn't uncommon to crack frames. These frames went designed to flex much but were forced to. They developed weak spots and cracked instead.

How do I prevent this? First and foremost, I balance my trailer load once I get to dirt. I shift the weight to the back and run almost no tongue weight. This takes most of the force off of my hitch and only leaves what down force generated by the brakes. I also back off how hard my trailer brakes grab off road. I have been doing this with my M-100 for decades as well as have my friends with trailers doing the same.

In my opinion, most "off-road" trailers are designed for pavement and graded dirt roads. To me this is obvious by the way the builders designed them. Add in modern frames, leverage and drivers who have little knowledge of how their truck is designed and this is what happens.
 
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old_man

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My tongue is different from most, being mounted soo high. It is also longer. It has never been a problem and allows extreme articulation. I may shorten it 6 inches some day when I have time, but it has never given me any issues either on or off road.Teardrop Done-M.jpg

 
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