Full Size vs Mid Size

[Jrodrigues1278]

All very good points guys for me to consider. Here is a curve ball....

I was pricing new vehicles online last night for research and a fully loaded JTR:$65k, Fully loaded PW: $60K, Fully loaded Rebel with EcoDiesel $59K.

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

So I mentioned in an earlier post that I want to keep the vehicle mechanics relatively stock for reliability, etc... excluding the suspension of course as I want to fit 37” tires while maintaining a low center of gravity. It is one of the reasons with originally looking at the JT Rubicon; factory lockers, Swaybar disconnects, etc.

Looking at the PW, has the same similarities in let’s say a larger package. Looking at 3” lifts, which is what I had planned for the JTR, I see that the AEV system is a very serious option. Now with that being said, it appears that in PW, the springs must be swapped to another Mopar part number. Not a big deal; but it does make me wonder, with the PW springs being a big part of why the payload is so low; would these new springs (non PW) theoretically increase the payload because they are no longer so “soft”....

thought from you guys, aka the experts?

 

[leeloo]

low sulphur diesel is the same. Is not wconomic ro make 6 types of diesel,.does not matter where you are.
Engine emission systems, yes, they are different

 

[leeloo]

So I mentioned in an earlier post that I want to keep the vehicle mechanics relatively stock for reliability, etc... excluding the suspension of course as I want to fit 37” tires while maintaining a low center of gravity. It is one of the reasons with originally looking at the JT Rubicon; factory lockers, Swaybar disconnects, etc.

Looking at the PW, has the same similarities in let’s say a larger package. Looking at 3” lifts, which is what I had planned for the JTR, I see that the AEV system is a very serious option. Now with that being said, it appears that in PW, the springs must be swapped to another Mopar part number. Not a big deal; but it does make me wonder, with the PW springs being a big part of why the payload is so low; would these new springs (non PW) theoretically increase the payload because they are no longer so “soft”....

thought from you guys, aka the experts?

your aproach is wrong from the start, like an off roader. You load all the gear you will need . unknown to you now, than dial in the suspension. Or help the economy and swap 3 kits till you get it right.Itnisnfine, nobody will suffer but you :-)

 

[ChambersFamily]

Yup, unless I needed to haul everyday for a job you couldn't pay me to run a modern diesel. I really hope the engine manufacturers figure out a better way. But until then I'll pass...

Yeah I see this point. I drove a 12v Cummins since the day we picked it up off the lot in 1996, and sold it last year with 500k on the clock. It was amazing, only sold it because it was a club cab and I now had a growing family. But the engine had zero issues. I now have a 19 Cummins. And all the computers make me nervous as it's no longer a 100% mechanical platform. That being said, I run pretty heavy in the diesel community and I've never heard of a Cummins running high sulfur fuel and having issues on any generation setup.

I don't know personally for myself I wouldn't have any other truck. Last trip out fully loaded we averaged almost 18mpg, I have plenty of room for my gear, family, dog. 400 hp and 1,000 lb torque, plus some extra tweaks I've done more then enough power then I'll ever need. Hill decent, all the off road goodies, I can unbolt the front sway bar to get some extra articulation (I have have needed yet). The truck is a beast. It's leveled on 35's (because I had access to 35's at the time) on stock wheels but it can fit 37's haha.

Biggest downside.... the COST. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought I would have paid that much for a truck in my life. It better last 20+ years like the last one did!

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

low sulphur diesel is the same. Is not wconomic ro make 6 types of diesel,.does not matter where you are.
Engine emission systems, yes, they are different

I mentioned the diesel because I’m researching future trips with possibly a diesel vehicle into the coffee countries of South America, I found that not all countries are on low sulfur diesel yet. Many including Mexico, have area without it still. My concern is that High Sulfur, farm/tractor diesel, doing a number on the systems of a modern diesel power plant.

 

[MidOH]

If you're going to lift and swap springs on a PW, skip the PW. The PW isn't the best solution if you're going to mod it. A plain old Ram or Ford with a Carli kit will be a better choice. You'll need to swap gears for 37-38" tires, so adding lockers at the same time is no big deal.

I'm not worried about sulfur in S America. I'd worry about water or dirt in fuel. I'd go gas, for down there.

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

your aproach is wrong from the start, like an off roader. You load all the gear you will need . unknown to you now, than dial in the suspension. Or help the economy and swap 3 kits till you get it right.Itnisnfine, nobody will suffer but you :-)

My approach wrong? I don’t believe it is actually. This thread was started for me to ask questions of other members with a full size rigs and mid size rigs, on the pros and cons of each as I try to make a decision for what is best for my family and our service dog when it arrives.

Yes I am an off-roader and have that mentality to a point, it’s why I have been asking questions here as I tranfer over from off-roaring to overlanding. I ask questions, do research because I prefer to pay once.

If there is something I am overlooking, I would appreciate You letting me know.

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

Yeah I see this point. I drove a 12v Cummins since the day we picked it up off the lot in 1996, and sold it last year with 500k on the clock. It was amazing, only sold it because it was a club cab and I now had a growing family. But the engine had zero issues. I now have a 19 Cummins. And all the computers make me nervous as it's no longer a 100% mechanical platform. That being said, I run pretty heavy in the diesel community and I've never heard of a Cummins running high sulfur fuel and having issues on any generation setup.

I don't know personally for myself I wouldn't have any other truck. Last trip out fully loaded we averaged almost 18mpg, I have plenty of room for my gear, family, dog. 400 hp and 1,000 lb torque, plus some extra tweaks I've done more then enough power then I'll ever need. Hill decent, all the off road goodies, I can unbolt the front sway bar to get some extra articulation (I have have needed yet). The truck is a beast. It's leveled on 35's (because I had access to 35's at the time) on stock wheels but it can fit 37's haha.

Biggest downside.... the COST. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought I would have paid that much for a truck in my life. It better last 20+ years like the last one did!

i was actually going to hit you up on IG this morning. I ageee the cost of these things has gone way out of control.
How do you like your Ram?

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

If you're going to lift and swap springs on a PW, skip the PW. The PW isn't the best solution if you're going to mod it. A plain old Ram or Ford with a Carli kit will be a better choice. You'll need to swap gears for 37-38" tires, so adding lockers at the same time is no big deal.

I'm not worried about sulfur in S America. I'd worry about water or dirt in fuel. I'd go gas, for down there.

You do bring up a good point, and it is something I was overlooking. 100% while in there I can add lockers easily. The only benefit is that I would have them right away. I don’t plan on modding it until I have the overland gear figured out, seeing what I need vs what I want.

How many of you guys run lockers on an overland rig? Or am I just over thinking it.

I am sure about the brands for trucks, being a Jeep guy. Is Carlo a good brand for lofts?

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

i was actually going to hit you up on IG this morning. I ageee the cost of these things has gone way out of control.
How do you like your Ram?

37” no lift?

 

[Dilldog]

low sulphur diesel is the same. Is not wconomic ro make 6 types of diesel,.does not matter where you are.
Engine emission systems, yes, they are different

In order to make Ultra Low Sulfur diesel fuel takes more steps in the refining process. Sulfur is something that accompanies the oil that in certain quantities can help in lubrication, but makes the fuel burn dirtier. In order to provide the lubricity that is lost when removing the sulfur additives need to be put in. So if a cleaner burning fuel is not required for a region, the extra steps are not taken. This does make economic sense. All diesel fuel comes from the same base stock, its how its treated after refining to a fuel oil that determines the market it is bound for.

Yeah I see this point. I drove a 12v Cummins since the day we picked it up off the lot in 1996, and sold it last year with 500k on the clock. It was amazing, only sold it because it was a club cab and I now had a growing family. But the engine had zero issues. I now have a 19 Cummins. And all the computers make me nervous as it's no longer a 100% mechanical platform. That being said, I run pretty heavy in the diesel community and I've never heard of a Cummins running high sulfur fuel and having issues on any generation setup.

I don't know personally for myself I wouldn't have any other truck. Last trip out fully loaded we averaged almost 18mpg, I have plenty of room for my gear, family, dog. 400 hp and 1,000 lb torque, plus some extra tweaks I've done more then enough power then I'll ever need. Hill decent, all the off road goodies, I can unbolt the front sway bar to get some extra articulation (I have have needed yet). The truck is a beast. It's leveled on 35's (because I had access to 35's at the time) on stock wheels but it can fit 37's haha.

Biggest downside.... the COST. Never in my wildest dreams would I have thought I would have paid that much for a truck in my life. It better last 20+ years like the last one did!

I hear ya there, I ran a 93 Dodge with a 12valve in it for a long time. I ran 20% waste oil in my fuel and it loved it. Just need to be careful with getting high quality fuel filters and changing them often. As far as running higher sulfur fuel in a new engine is concerned. The damage occurs in the after treatment system. Sulfur does not burn cleanly and so you will have DPF, DOC, and SCR issues. Its kinda like what happens in a gas engine when you run leaded gasoline with a catalytic converter.

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

The damage occurs in the after treatment system. Sulfur does not burn cleanly and so you will have DPF, DOC, and SCR issues. Its kinda like what happens in a gas engine when you run leaded gasoline with a catalytic converter.

Hypothetically would a DPF delete help resolve these issues? I am curious now and don’t know enough about it.

 

[MazeVX]

I get it that I won’t find a do it all rig, but I am gonna try lol.

I love the Ford SDs but they are large. I hate the experience I had with my last one after the turbos blew, dealer didn’t want to warranty it and then while trying to squeeze 10K out of me, went bankrupt and closed shop. That’s a campfire story for sure!

I have asked on here if anyone has the PCOR installed and also the RSI system installed but haven’t gotten a response. I priced out a PCOR for the Gladiator and it’s was like 30K. The RSI is half that but details are not out on water options, electrical etc... in order to compare apples to apples.

I happened to look at their site rite now and found this cap...

View attachment 156315
RSI Smart Cap cap, UTE and Canopy


I got to say I dig the look of this cap on it! I liked them for the Gladiator as well.

For the price of a PCOR I could get a fully loaded XV2 and have a base camp down the road.

I like my 2WD Silverado and I have had the family in it. A lot of room. I also recently had a Ram rental while in between work trucks due to accident, and had the family in it. They loved it plenty of room.

View attachment 156317

I am beginning to think a full size might be best. What limitations do you guys see in a full size?

You might want to look at 50ten, saw their stuff and it's really good.
Prices vary so don't be scared and ask for something in between...

FiftyTenUSA

FiftyTenUSA offers a German-engineered and simple camping system to bring you closer to nature.

www.fiftytenusa.com

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Not a big deal; but it does make me wonder, with the PW springs being a big part of why the payload is so low; would these new springs (non PW) theoretically increase the payload because they are no longer so “soft”....

Good question, and a common one as I had that same question myself a while back.

The short answer that I found is that there is no legal way to increase the payload of a vehicle in North America. The payload figures are set by the manufacturer and are the “on record” truth for the life of that vehicle.

Exceeding that max weight is not advised, regardless of legality - and practically, it’s not super common for non-commercial vehicle getting dinged for being over payload in Canada (I’ve only heard of it rarely, anecdotally — kind of a “this happened to a guy I heard about out East” kind of way). A lot of people ignore the legality entirely and just build up a rig without care for weight, upgrade the suspension to carry a bigger load, and call it a day. However, not only is there a possible legal/regulatory issue, there are also other components that are spec’d to certain loads, and going over the designed payload introduces a greater risk of component failures. Remote area travel is risky enough already in many ways that the added risk of component failure is rarely worth the extra ‘stuff’ that makes up those pounds and ounces. And for handling Off-road, every pound matters — so lighter is better, and the best way to stay light is to forget about upgrading payload entirely and buy a rig whose payload matches your needs to begin with.

I would apply that philosophy to your tires too — if you want to do really hard-core off-road tracks, sure 37’s might mame it easier to get through obstacles. But you’ll find most Overland rigs are running 32-33” tires for NA Overlanding, and this significantly reduces the challenges of fitment and significantly reduces component failures. This might mean you need to pick a more cautious line, or perhaps winch more often than not — but take a look at the 4WheelDriveAction vids on Youtube (they just changed their name to 4WD247) and you’ll see that Graham Cahill’s Isuzu goes plenty of places on 32”s without an issue, and he has never been left behind by far more capable, twin-locked rigs with bigger wheels.

Back to your suspension question, I would suggest that suspension should never be upgraded to increase payload, and it should only be upgraded to better handle the load being carried. What I mean is this — the payload on my Canyon is 1550 lbs. If, when loaded for a trip, I was consistently running at 1400 lbs, I would buy suspension to match that load so that my rig could easily carry it over rough terrain. If I was only carrying 800 lbs, then I would buy suspension to match that more moderate load instead. If I wanted to carry 1800 lbs...I’d buy a bigger truck Spec’d to that, and tune the suspension to match.

Our cousins in Australia have the option of having a vehicle modified before purchase and, provided it’s signed off by engineers that are recognized by the original manufacturer, these modifications DO allow for an increased payload — but there’s a lot that goes into that beyond suspension. From the tires to the frame and everything in between, these engineered payload increases often address every component to make sure they can support the increased weights. This doesn’t mean they CHANGE every component — just that they do the math for the various components to make sure they can safely and reliably carry the increased load. We do not have that option here in NA.

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

Good question, and a common one as I had that same question myself a while back.

The short answer that I found is that there is no legal way to increase the payload of a vehicle in North America. The payload figures are set by the manufacturer and are the “on record” truth for the life of that vehicle.

Exceeding that max weight is not advised, regardless of legality - and practically, it’s not super common for non-commercial vehicle getting dinged for being over payload in Canada (I’ve only heard of it rarely, anecdotally — kind of a “this happened to a guy I heard about out East” kind of way). A lot of people ignore the legality entirely and just build up a rig without care for weight, upgrade the suspension to carry a bigger load, and call it a day. However, not only is there a possible legal/regulatory issue, there are also other components that are spec’d to certain loads, and going over the designed payload introduces a greater risk of component failures. Remote area travel is risky enough already in many ways that the added risk of component failure is rarely worth the extra ‘stuff’ that makes up those pounds and ounces. And for handling Off-road, every pound matters — so lighter is better, and the best way to stay light is to forget about upgrading payload entirely and buy a rig whose payload matches your needs to begin with.

I would apply that philosophy to your tires too — if you want to do really hard-core off-road tracks, sure 37’s might mame it easier to get through obstacles. But you’ll find most Overland rigs are running 32-33” tires for NA Overlanding, and this significantly reduces the challenges of fitment and significantly reduces component failures. This might mean you need to pick a more cautious line, or perhaps winch more often than not — but take a look at the 4WheelDriveAction vids on Youtube (they just changed their name to 4WD247) and you’ll see that Graham Cahill’s Isuzu goes plenty of places on 32”s without an issue, and he has never been left behind by far more capable, twin-locked rigs with bigger wheels.

Back to your suspension question, I would suggest that suspension should never be upgraded to increase payload, and it should only be upgraded to better handle the load being carried. What I mean is this — the payload on my Canyon is 1550 lbs. If, when loaded for a trip, I was consistently running at 1400 lbs, I would buy suspension to match that load so that my rig could easily carry it over rough terrain. If I was only carrying 800 lbs, then I would buy suspension to match that more moderate load instead. If I wanted to carry 1800 lbs...I’d buy a bigger truck Spec’d to that, and tune the suspension to match.

Our cousins in Australia have the option of having a vehicle modified before purchase and, provided it’s signed off by engineers that are recognized by the original manufacturer, these modifications DO allow for an increased payload — but there’s a lot that goes into that beyond suspension. From the tires to the frame and everything in between, these engineered payload increases often address every component to make sure they can support the increased weights. This doesn’t mean they CHANGE every component — just that they do the math for the various components to make sure they can safely and reliably carry the increased load. We do not have that option here in NA.

Now that’s a hell of an answer

I agree with you, I was merely asking literally out of curiosity. The 1500 payload, is kind of a joke. Let’s say 2 adults, 2 kids and alarge dog and you can easily get to 1/2 of that. Add a cap, add some extra water and fuel, fridge, oven, sleeping bags and a ground tent and your quickly creeping up on that payload.

or am I missing something here?

 

[MidOH]

You do bring up a good point, and it is something I was overlooking. 100% while in there I can add lockers easily. The only benefit is that I would have them right away. I don’t plan on modding it until I have the overland gear figured out, seeing what I need vs what I want.

How many of you guys run lockers on an overland rig? Or am I just over thinking it.

I am sure about the brands for trucks, being a Jeep guy. Is Carlo a good brand for lofts?

My truck is still new, so I'm rocking box stock. But I always run a Yukon Griz locker in the front, E locker rear. 4.56-4.88 gears are in my future.

Carli is a diesel Dodge Ford lift kit company.
BDS is preferred for gas, and everything else.

3000# is a good cargo capacity. 1500 is unacceptable to me.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Now that’s a hell of an answer

I agree with you, I was merely asking literally out of curiosity. The 1500 payload, is kind of a joke. Let’s say 2 adults, 2 kids and alarge dog and you can easily get to 1/2 of that. Add a cap, add some extra water and fuel, fridge, oven, sleeping bags and a ground tent and your quickly creeping up on that payload.

or am I missing something here?

Not missing a thing!

Now think of all the JKs you’ve seen kitted out for Overland adventure with bumpers, two spare tires, an RTT and awning, maybe a water system, and a full suite of skid plates and sliders, and know that they sometimes have payloads as low as 850-900 lbs....Most of them are well over their payloads. Even a Taco, which for a long time was THE overland mid-size truck to have, has under 1200 lbs payload. The Canyon at 1500 lbs is actually pretty good — a full-size only has a few hundred more, but that small payload boost comes with a thousand pounds extra curb weight (check my chart from a few posts back to see the comparison) which has it’s own challenges off road. But, you still have to pack judiciously and keep things low weight, and that can be hard when packing for a family - hence why so many bring a trailer, but that too is a compromise in terms of maneuverability and off-road performance (Depending on the types of tracks you are taking).

Payload is THE most valuable commodity on an overland build in my opinion — every pound you use somewhere, is a pound you cannot use somewhere else. On my build, I have been slow to add stuff because I want to make sure I have a vision for the whole thing before I invest my money or, if a commercial option isn’t available, my time to build one. Last year I built a bed rack out of aluminum, but it is a bit heavy and overbuilt — still, I can afford that as my total trip load is not even close to 1500 lbs, which is a semi-truck as compared to my Jeep, but I’m revisiting the design. It was a bit of a rush job before a short trip we had last year, and while i had bigger plans for it, it works for now and allows for adventures, but I think I can do better and get more utility for less weight. Like I said earlier that 1500 payload number was my minimum on my most/least flexible as it works for our kit and travel style, but I still want to have maximum lightness in my accessories to allow for future options.

For example, the ARB bumper for my rig is 220lbs - and I think that may be before the weight of the winch as that is the shipping weight from 4WheelParts. If you put a winch on there, that can be as much as 20% of my total payload all on one accessory. Now, that accessory happens to be really important and of great quality — animal strikes are a really risk for our adventures, and a bull bar gives you a chance of at least getting home after having one — but then where else in the build is the compromise? If I give 20% of my payload to the ARB bumper, instead of say 10% of my payload to the CBI Off-Road aluminum bumper (I’m not sure it’s weight that’s just an example), that’s 10% less wiggle room I have in other accessories, like a camper shell, skid plates, sliders, etc. On the other hand, it’s really hard to beat ARB Bumpers in terms of quality and performance and the majority of serious international Overlanders swear by them — for good reason — so that 20% may be well worth it. If they had an alloy (aluminum) bumper for my platform like they do for other platforms, it wouldn’t even be a debate for me, but I’m being very cheap with my payload!

A lot of people don’t give it this much thought and they bolt on the accessory and go, and honestly that works out for them a lot of the time. But, I enjoy this process as part of the hobby of building a rig — chasing perfection as well as our trunks ;) — so it’s part of the fun for me.

 

[peeeeetey]

I personally like the larger body for comfort, but what I have been hearing is that most tracks are established by the narrower cars in the Jeep/Toyota 4runner/Tacoma class class sized vehicles. Something to think about..

 

[Jrodrigues1278]

I personally like the larger body for comfort, but what I have been hearing is that most tracks are established by the narrower cars in the Jeep/Toyota 4runner/Tacoma class class sized vehicles. Something to think about..

That has been the debate but unfortunately unless I keep the kids or the wife or the dog home, I am starting to realize that I need a full size.