Full Size vs Mid Size

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Jrodrigues1278

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Not missing a thing!

Now think of all the JKs you’ve seen kitted out for Overland adventure with bumpers, two spare tires, an RTT and awning, maybe a water system, and a full suite of skid plates and sliders, and know that they sometimes have payloads as low as 850-900 lbs....Most of them are well over their payloads. Even a Taco, which for a long time was THE overland mid-size truck to have, has under 1200 lbs payload. The Canyon at 1500 lbs is actually pretty good — a full-size only has a few hundred more, but that small payload boost comes with a thousand pounds extra curb weight (check my chart from a few posts back to see the comparison) which has it’s own challenges off road. But, you still have to pack judiciously and keep things low weight, and that can be hard when packing for a family - hence why so many bring a trailer, but that too is a compromise in terms of maneuverability and off-road performance (Depending on the types of tracks you are taking).

Payload is THE most valuable commodity on an overland build in my opinion — every pound you use somewhere, is a pound you cannot use somewhere else. On my build, I have been slow to add stuff because I want to make sure I have a vision for the whole thing before I invest my money or, if a commercial option isn’t available, my time to build one. Last year I built a bed rack out of aluminum, but it is a bit heavy and overbuilt — still, I can afford that as my total trip load is not even close to 1500 lbs, which is a semi-truck as compared to my Jeep, but I’m revisiting the design. It was a bit of a rush job before a short trip we had last year, and while i had bigger plans for it, it works for now and allows for adventures, but I think I can do better and get more utility for less weight. Like I said earlier that 1500 payload number was my minimum on my most/least flexible as it works for our kit and travel style, but I still want to have maximum lightness in my accessories to allow for future options.

For example, the ARB bumper for my rig is 220lbs - and I think that may be before the weight of the winch as that is the shipping weight from 4WheelParts. If you put a winch on there, that can be as much as 20% of my total payload all on one accessory. Now, that accessory happens to be really important and of great quality — animal strikes are a really risk for our adventures, and a bull bar gives you a chance of at least getting home after having one — but then where else in the build is the compromise? If I give 20% of my payload to the ARB bumper, instead of say 10% of my payload to the CBI Off-Road aluminum bumper (I’m not sure it’s weight that’s just an example), that’s 10% less wiggle room I have in other accessories, like a camper shell, skid plates, sliders, etc. On the other hand, it’s really hard to beat ARB Bumpers in terms of quality and performance and the majority of serious international Overlanders swear by them — for good reason — so that 20% may be well worth it. If they had an alloy (aluminum) bumper for my platform like they do for other platforms, it wouldn’t even be a debate for me, but I’m being very cheap with my payload!

A lot of people don’t give it this much thought and they bolt on the accessory and go, and honestly that works out for them a lot of the time. But, I enjoy this process as part of the hobby of building a rig — chasing perfection as well as our trunks ;) — so it’s part of the fun for me.
I agree with you completely. My Jeeps I have always tried to keep the weight not only low, but well balanced as well. I wheeled my LJR for a long time without evan a lift, just step bumpers and a winch. Keeping a Low center of Gravity. It’s why I would not go up in lift more then 3”. Evan the JTR was only going to be 3”.
Evan the cap I am looking at is lightweight stainless steel. I may or may not put a rack on the vehicle, unless I need it. I would prefer an aluminum belly pan.
I plan on building my own cargo slide out 3/4 ply and extruded aluminum. If I recall a 97” piece only ways like 4 pounds.

But I regress I am definitely leaning towards a full size. The PW is nice, love the fact that it’s like a RUBI, but as another member mentioned, I am already going to be in there for gears so I might as well put my own locker in it. I know I will be able to fit 40” tires but I don’t want to go that extreme. If I do make it up north one day, the 37” will be enough for any unexpected water crossings.
I feel like a lot of my traveling will be solo vehicle. Out of my close family and friends, I am the black sheep, the off road (now Overlander). They like to come for the adventure but won’t ever build a rig. Doesn’t interest them enough. It’s how I ended here at OB.
 
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Billiebob

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I personally like the larger body for comfort, but what I have been hearing is that most tracks are established by the narrower cars in the Jeep/Toyota 4runner/Tacoma class class sized vehicles. Something to think about..
Could be a regional thing but I think you'll find the opposite true more often, full size trucks made the track and skinny Samurais are jumping from rut to rut. But I drive a skinny TJ on resource roads and never have trouble staying in the tracks. But there is always this.


I'm a foot skinnier than a pickup, two feet skinnier than a Quigley.
 
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ChambersFamily

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Could be a regional thing but I think you'll find the opposite true more often, full size trucks made the track and skinny Samurais are jumping from rut to rut. But I drive a skinny TJ on resource roads and never have trouble staying in the tracks. But there is always this.


I'm a foot skinnier than a pickup, two feet skinnier than a Quigley.

For me personally this is my biggest issue. If I had a 20 year old truck and the paint was whatever... sure no prob. But watching that video gave me anxiety thinking of the paint on my 2019. I know with what we do I shouldn't be as sensitive because we KNOW it's not going to stay new forever. But DAMN. I wont lie, I'm trading a CVT rtt for a buff job and ceramic coating this week :neutral:
 
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Jrodrigues1278

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For me personally this is my biggest issue. If I had a 20 year old truck and the paint was whatever... sure no prob. But watching that video gave me anxiety thinking of the paint on my 2019. I know with what we do I shouldn't be as sensitive because we KNOW it's not going to stay new forever. But DAMN. I wont lie, I'm trading a CVT rtt for a buff job and ceramic coating this week :neutral:
now if only these guys were in the US:
Rhinohide
 

4wheelspulling

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Jrodrigues1278,
Why is it you feel you need a new truck or SUV VS. a used Truck or SUV? You wrote that a Ford Excursion would be a top contender if still made. Why not look for a used one in good shape? I see them for sale with low miles, 4x4 and the 7.3 Diesel, for around 10k. You may have to look out of your area for and do some traveling to get but why not? My 99’Dodge 2500, 4x4 Cummins, with the extended cab, will probably outlast me! You do not need a new vehicle to have a dependable vehicle! Nothing new even comes close with all the junk that you have to have and pay for on the new vehicles. You could buy lots of great stuff, new suspension, gears, lockers, tires, Overland gear, and fuel, and still not spend the kind of money that you would for a new vehicle. It’s your decision and money. It has taken years to have the vehicles, Overland gear, and experience that I do to go and do what I do. I love watching the faces of people that have $100K, vehicle and can’t go where I do in my $10K vehicle, and I still drive it home! Vance.
 
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Jrodrigues1278

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Jrodrigues1278,
Why is it you feel you need a new truck or SUV VS. a used Truck or SUV? You wrote that a Ford Excursion would be a top contender if still made. Why not look for a used one in good shape? I see them for sale with low miles, 4x4 and the 7.3 Diesel, for around 10k. You may have to look out of your area for and do some traveling to get but why not? My 99’Dodge 2500, 4x4 Cummins, with the extended cab, will probably outlast me! You do not need a new vehicle to have a dependable vehicle! Nothing new even comes close with all the junk that you have to have and pay for on the new vehicles. You could buy lots of great stuff, new suspension, gears, lockers, tires, Overland gear, and fuel, and still not spend the kind of money that you would for a new vehicle. It’s your decision and money. It has taken years to have the vehicles, Overland gear, and experience that I do to go and do what I do. I love watching the faces of people that have $100K, vehicle and can’t go where I do in my $10K vehicle, and I still drive it home! Vance.
Vance,
I do appreciate your responce. As for the Excursion, I have looked, actually for a few years now for a used one. The problems I usually find with used excursions are:

Poor Service records / Rusted floorboards / 13” “lift” kits / Don’t want a V10 / 7.3 Ridiculous mileages or over priced / 6.0 bulletproof (good thing) but usually heavily modified / etc.

I originally was looking at a Gladiator Rubicon for several reasons, but I was concerned with interior space. I used a the Ram version of it as a reference, starting with the Power Wagen as a comparison.

I would love a new fully loaded Ram but at 80k+.... I doubt it. Yes I know I can get one for 50k.

I appreciate the information Vance and if I made it seem like NEW was the only option for me, that is not the case. The purpose of this thread was to decide what would be more appropriate, full or mid. Everyone has been helpful a small Ihave appreciated every comment. Full size seems to be what will be right for my family.

The rest of the conversation has been icing on the cake, great information, great insights, informative opinions and I thank You and everyone for all of it.

....... with all of that being said, what would you recommend and why?
 
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Jrodrigues1278

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And to play devil’s advocate with my own statement....

65k+ or evan 80k+ isn’t that bad if I am going to keep it for 15/20/25 years and hand it off to my son if he is able to safely grasp driving it and have it for a few more years...
 

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For me personally this is my biggest issue. If I had a 20 year old truck and the paint was whatever... sure no prob. But watching that video gave me anxiety thinking of the paint on my 2019. I know with what we do I shouldn't be as sensitive because we KNOW it's not going to stay new forever. But DAMN. I wont lie, I'm trading a CVT rtt for a buff job and ceramic coating this week :neutral:
It is like with virginity.. first time hurts the most, after a while you can even multitask.. :)
I also got got a new 2020 pick up , I ordered the cheapest color, simple white and be done with it.. I know it will not last long. Think of it as cool scars - it will give it character.. :). The money saved from the color option went to some equipment..

The dealer was stunned, I was like the first client who did not had optioned out a color.. :), he kept asking and showing me pictures, then I explained what the pick up will be for and he stopped.. :)
 

LostWoods

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Vance,
I do appreciate your responce. As for the Excursion, I have looked, actually for a few years now for a used one. The problems I usually find with used excursions are:

Poor Service records / Rusted floorboards / 13” “lift” kits / Don’t want a V10 / 7.3 Ridiculous mileages or over priced / 6.0 bulletproof (good thing) but usually heavily modified / etc.

I originally was looking at a Gladiator Rubicon for several reasons, but I was concerned with interior space. I used a the Ram version of it as a reference, starting with the Power Wagen as a comparison.

I would love a new fully loaded Ram but at 80k+.... I doubt it. Yes I know I can get one for 50k.

I appreciate the information Vance and if I made it seem like NEW was the only option for me, that is not the case. The purpose of this thread was to decide what would be more appropriate, full or mid. Everyone has been helpful a small Ihave appreciated every comment. Full size seems to be what will be right for my family.

The rest of the conversation has been icing on the cake, great information, great insights, informative opinions and I thank You and everyone for all of it.

....... with all of that being said, what would you recommend and why?
Just chiming in but I highly recommend the Sport S max tow package variant of the JT. I'm in love with mine and it checks the boxes for utility and payload nicely. The only stipulation there is you're goign with the 2.73:1 instead of 4:1 transfer case but that's my preference on a trail (i.e. not crawler) rig.

I have 35's on mine (did need to do a bumper swap or trim the stock one to fit) with no lift and had a great time this weekend playing with lifted Tacos, 4Runners, and a Colorado. Lockers will be plentiful (and as you mentioned, since you're cracking the diffs anyway, what's the point of the restrictive stock lockers?) once the market catches up since the axle structure is shared with the JL and 60% of that aftermarket applies to the JT as well. The max tow package offers much better payload ratings and towing than the Rubicon as well but in the end, if you mod them 1:1 you'll be within 50lbs.

The downside is, as you said, space. It's good for my wife and I though I did pull the passenger rear for more cargo room. Headroom is good but the interior is otherwise as cramped as it is in a Wrangler. Doesn't bother me at all but some don't like that.

It's all a question of what you want to prioritize. For me that was payload and capability and I'll sacrifice a bit of comfort and reliability to get that. By the time I had build sheets together, the benefits of a full-size without going Super Duty were not enough to outweigh their weight and size so here I am.
 
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Jrodrigues1278

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I think I have decided and I am going to start my search. Thank you to everyone for your insight and opinions. Here is my conclusions.

Since I live in the Northern NJ, 15 minutes out of NYC, trails are not in my backyard. So a lot of driving on road will need to be done to get to trails. At this point the diesel makes sense. Realistically any major US trip will also be 2k-6K mile round trip. Places like Colorado, Georgia, Maine, Virginia, etc. MPG and longevity will be key.

Full size. As much as I want a JTR, the comfort for my family on long trips with their Medical history and additional space is a must.That with added bonus of having my son’s service dog one day in the cab with us to help him stay calm on longer trips just makes sense.


Payload, need to be above 3K as a minimum. I will use this truck for a new venture in addition to overlanding. Details on that; another time.

Towing, needs to be able tow at least 10K. Various reasons, but mostly for trailers of all kinds. From Jeeps to cargo to base camp.

Easily accessible parts both nationally and internationally. Don’t plan on taking it anywhere international for many years. By the time I do, low sulfur diesel should not be an issue. I am willing to address that later down the road.

Brand new full size trucks are way costly, I priced a Ram 2500 Laramie to almost 80K before mods. I would rather invest that in venture. At 80K I could have a customer excursion built out of a super duty.

So what am I thinking?

Gen 4 (or pristine 3) Ram 2500/3500 Cummins

Thoughts comments concerns?
 

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I think that’s a good plan. There’s nothing wrong with the platform and there should be an abundance of resources on fitting one out. It’s a big rig that might limit your trail options a little bit, but it has the expanded capacity to haul a dedicated trail runner along with you if you need to (i.e. a built CJ on a trailer).

I would suggest though that parts internationally may not be as available for the Ram 2500/3500 as you might want as Ram is very much a North American line. That’s not to say you CAN’T get parts, but there are other platforms that would be better in that metric (but that come with their own issues).

This is borderline cruel of me to say, but the platform that checks ALL your boxes is the Land Cruiser 79 series dual cab...which isn’t available in North America (That’s the cruel part, I didn’t mean to get your hopes up only to dash them!). But it’s got a diesel, a full size cab that is like a Lego set in terms of making it more comfortable (you can do seats, audio, etc. To improve the interior), and it’s got up to a 3500 lbs payload. But the only way you’ll get one in North America is to get a very old model imported (or a previously imported model that you buy used). I just did a quick check and there are none available right now and when they do come up I would expect them to have a price to match their rarity. I assume that any Toyota dealer can get parts for it, even if it’s not here - but they may not have parts handy and in-stock, so for national travel you are probably better off with the Ram.
 
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Jrodrigues1278

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I think that’s a good plan. There’s nothing wrong with the platform and there should be an abundance of resources on fitting one out. It’s a big rig that might limit your trail options a little bit, but it has the expanded capacity to haul a dedicated trail runner along with you if you need to (i.e. a built CJ on a trailer).

I would suggest though that parts internationally may not be as available for the Ram 2500/3500 as you might want as Ram is very much a North American line. That’s not to say you CAN’T get parts, but there are other platforms that would be better in that metric (but that come with their own issues).

This is borderline cruel of me to say, but the platform that checks ALL your boxes is the Land Cruiser 79 series dual cab...which isn’t available in North America (That’s the cruel part, I didn’t mean to get your hopes up only to dash them!). But it’s got a diesel, a full size cab that is like a Lego set in terms of making it more comfortable (you can do seats, audio, etc. To improve the interior), and it’s got up to a 3500 lbs payload. But the only way you’ll get one in North America is to get a very old model imported (or a previously imported model that you buy used). I just did a quick check and there are none available right now and when they do come up I would expect them to have a price to match their rarity. I assume that any Toyota dealer can get parts for it, even if it’s not here - but they may not have parts handy and in-stock, so for national travel you are probably better off with the Ram.
a 79 series would be sweet!
By internationally I meant Canada and Mexico and maybe some other SA countries. But by the time I get to it (if ever) things might be easier. Plus I could always have shipped from the US.
 
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MidOH

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I still think that Mexico is best from a resort. Airplane to Cancun, taxi to Playa. Condo in Playa is only $2000/wk, with three rooms to share. Or hike to the ferrys (the ones that the cartels have't blown up yet), and go to a resort in Cozumel. My favorite vacation so far.

At this point, I'm dropping all of my international overlanding planned trips. Except for canada, but that's on the rocks as well.
 

LostWoods

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I think I have decided and I am going to start my search. Thank you to everyone for your insight and opinions. Here is my conclusions.

Since I live in the Northern NJ, 15 minutes out of NYC, trails are not in my backyard. So a lot of driving on road will need to be done to get to trails. At this point the diesel makes sense. Realistically any major US trip will also be 2k-6K mile round trip. Places like Colorado, Georgia, Maine, Virginia, etc. MPG and longevity will be key.

Full size. As much as I want a JTR, the comfort for my family on long trips with their Medical history and additional space is a must.That with added bonus of having my son’s service dog one day in the cab with us to help him stay calm on longer trips just makes sense.


Payload, need to be above 3K as a minimum. I will use this truck for a new venture in addition to overlanding. Details on that; another time.

Towing, needs to be able tow at least 10K. Various reasons, but mostly for trailers of all kinds. From Jeeps to cargo to base camp.

Easily accessible parts both nationally and internationally. Don’t plan on taking it anywhere international for many years. By the time I do, low sulfur diesel should not be an issue. I am willing to address that later down the road.

Brand new full size trucks are way costly, I priced a Ram 2500 Laramie to almost 80K before mods. I would rather invest that in venture. At 80K I could have a customer excursion built out of a super duty.

So what am I thinking?

Gen 4 (or pristine 3) Ram 2500/3500 Cummins

Thoughts comments concerns?
I have a very similar train of thought... if the JT didn't work for me I'd be in an F-250 or SRW F-350. If you're getting anything above the mid-size you might as well take advantage of the size. Toss a huge water and fuel tank in the thing with a 95L fridge and you could get half way across the country or do weeks off grid without a second thought.

IMO anything with the 24V 5.9L Cummins would be my first pick with an F-250 non-V10 gas second. That 5.9L is indestructible and doesn't have all the new emissions crap to maintain. It's a literal 1M km engine though you'll probably need a few transmissions in that time. I used to wrench on them at a dealer and the common rail version is rock solid other than that first year (2003)... did a fair bit of injectors on those.
 

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Only if you put the time in to prevent KDP. It's a cheap kit, and can be done in the driveway.

And keep in mind that the 5.9 is a farm tractor engine. If you have fillings in your teeth, or working ear drums, you won't after owning one for long.
 
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Jrodrigues1278

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I have a very similar train of thought... if the JT didn't work for me I'd be in an F-250 or SRW F-350. If you're getting anything above the mid-size you might as well take advantage of the size. Toss a huge water and fuel tank in the thing with a 95L fridge and you could get half way across the country or do weeks off grid without a second thought.

IMO anything with the 24V 5.9L Cummins would be my first pick with an F-250 non-V10 gas second. That 5.9L is indestructible and doesn't have all the new emissions crap to maintain. It's a literal 1M km engine though you'll probably need a few transmissions in that time. I used to wrench on them at a dealer and the common rail version is rock solid other than that first year (2003)... did a fair bit of injectors on those.
So from your perspective / experience which model years do you recommend looking for?