Defender is coming back to the US in 2020
- Thread starter SouthernCross
- Start date
I’m excited about the new Defender, and I think at least on paper, it will be one of the most versatile overlanding rigs on the market. Even better than my mid-size truck.
Now that the info has dropped, here are the key specs that jump out to me:
- 1800 lbs payload is better than most mid-sized trucks. It’s nearly 1,000 lbs more than my old Rubicon.
- Approach, departure, and break over angles look excellent
- Can be had with coil springs, which means lift kits and adjustability of ride with aftermarket components should be straightforward as compared to the Discoveries.
- Price. On paper this thing is excellent, and it’s base package is priced reasonably relative to it’s competition (Chevy/Toyota mid-sized trucks, Toyota 4 Runner, Jeep JL) in the Off-Road market.
The “What about these features” that don’t really worry me:
- Lack of a ladder frame. Yes, this is a break from a ‘traditionally’ good off-roader, but vehicle design has come a long way since the 1980s where frameless rigs twisted and bent themselves to pieces in any off road environment. Given they have the technology to make glue that is more robust than welds, I’m going to give LR the benefit of the doubt on this one. Only time will tell, but I doubt they would have gone this route if they were not confident. The other disadvantage to this design is valid — a framed vehicle can survive a fender bender better as they are typically easier to repair back to new. However the counter argument is also valid — that frameless vehicles have more ability to integrate crumple zones and energy dissipation features into the design, which makes it easier for the occupants to repair back to new after an accident — and in my books that matters more! The question is, will these crumple zones and dissipation features work in accidents, but not work accidentally just because you are off-road (See the bending Ute frame discussions as an example).
- IFS & IRS instead of solid axles. Again, not a deal breaker. I’ve posted this before, but for most Overland trips, IFS is actually a better choice, because most of the miles a typical overlander does (highways and improved roads) are better served by IFS. In the real technical areas, IFS isn’t as robust — but that’s something that can be planned for.
The ‘features’ that DO worry me:
- LR couldn’t resist the addition of a lot of electronic gizmos, but I’m not totally clear on how necessary they are from a functional perspective. If my Terrain Sense system throws a trouble code, is the vehicle going to go into Limp Home Mode? Or if I have a sensor that fries, am I still able to engage 4x4 and lock the diffs? To be fair to LR, I am not I can do that on my current truck, but they stated they were going for reliability and I am curious how that attitude translated into the design of the vehicle.
Now that the info has dropped, here are the key specs that jump out to me:
- 1800 lbs payload is better than most mid-sized trucks. It’s nearly 1,000 lbs more than my old Rubicon.
- Approach, departure, and break over angles look excellent
- Can be had with coil springs, which means lift kits and adjustability of ride with aftermarket components should be straightforward as compared to the Discoveries.
- Price. On paper this thing is excellent, and it’s base package is priced reasonably relative to it’s competition (Chevy/Toyota mid-sized trucks, Toyota 4 Runner, Jeep JL) in the Off-Road market.
The “What about these features” that don’t really worry me:
- Lack of a ladder frame. Yes, this is a break from a ‘traditionally’ good off-roader, but vehicle design has come a long way since the 1980s where frameless rigs twisted and bent themselves to pieces in any off road environment. Given they have the technology to make glue that is more robust than welds, I’m going to give LR the benefit of the doubt on this one. Only time will tell, but I doubt they would have gone this route if they were not confident. The other disadvantage to this design is valid — a framed vehicle can survive a fender bender better as they are typically easier to repair back to new. However the counter argument is also valid — that frameless vehicles have more ability to integrate crumple zones and energy dissipation features into the design, which makes it easier for the occupants to repair back to new after an accident — and in my books that matters more! The question is, will these crumple zones and dissipation features work in accidents, but not work accidentally just because you are off-road (See the bending Ute frame discussions as an example).
- IFS & IRS instead of solid axles. Again, not a deal breaker. I’ve posted this before, but for most Overland trips, IFS is actually a better choice, because most of the miles a typical overlander does (highways and improved roads) are better served by IFS. In the real technical areas, IFS isn’t as robust — but that’s something that can be planned for.
The ‘features’ that DO worry me:
- LR couldn’t resist the addition of a lot of electronic gizmos, but I’m not totally clear on how necessary they are from a functional perspective. If my Terrain Sense system throws a trouble code, is the vehicle going to go into Limp Home Mode? Or if I have a sensor that fries, am I still able to engage 4x4 and lock the diffs? To be fair to LR, I am not I can do that on my current truck, but they stated they were going for reliability and I am curious how that attitude translated into the design of the vehicle.
Enthusiast II
I just saw this too! I want to love the new defender... but don’t want to spend $65k on it.
Coincidentally, I just ordered my new 4Runner... good by 2012, hello 2020!
Coincidentally, I just ordered my new 4Runner... good by 2012, hello 2020!
Enthusiast II
2020 Land Rover Defender is a tiny retro Range Rover - Autoblog
2020 Land Rover Defender luxury SUV revealed at the Frankfurt Motor Show. It features a retro design with Range Rover mechanical parts.
www.autoblog.com
Enthusiast II
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Electronic gizmos are gonna be the death knell for it. And when is the last time landrover made a reliable rig. Itll suck. I priced out 110 explorer pkg. Came to $100k canadian. I'll wait for the suckers to buy first.
But in the meantime I'm quite happy with my Tacoma, 80 series, and bj42.
But in the meantime I'm quite happy with my Tacoma, 80 series, and bj42.
What can I say, I’m an optimist! I agree that it needs to walk the walk, but I’m hopeful it will do so admirably, and based on what I’m seeing it’s not a total disaster — like i said, there are some specs that are actually very, very good for an Overlanding platform. As far as it being capable, I think that depends what you mean. It’ll never be a rock crawler, but it was never meant to be. Capable in an Overlanding rig depends on the trip and travel style, but generally speaking a high-payload, reliable 4x4 will be a good overlander. The “R” Word is the only question on the Defender in my books, and LR has made strides in that department in recent years, and has been pretty honest about their awareness of that problem during the Defender design. Whether that results in a reliable rig, I don’t know.
If anything, Land Rover has flubbed the launch a bit on the communication side of it, and there’s evidence of it all over the web with people observing what the Defender comes with and writing it off, with no attention being paid to how it can be configured. There are a lot of ideas of what this new Defender “is”, but the fact is this thing “is” trying to be many things at once, and I think that’s a mistake.
What I mean is you can order your new defender with Coil springs, steel wheels, a manual seat, and proven off-road tech, or you can order it with 22” wheels, airbag suspension, heated windscreens, heated washer fluid jets, navigation system, etc. Those are totally different markets for the same vehicle — they seem to be trying to offer it to the “Range Rover” market AND the “Defender” market at the same time. There’s a Venn diagram between those two, but the question I have is which one the Defender will lean towards the most.
The defender isn’t going to be for everyone, but it has potential and I’m hopeful it’s a success, and based on the specs I’m seeing I’m excited about it. I’ll be very interested to see some testing done on the platform which we’ll see a lot of in the coming weeks.
Either one of us could be right on this one though!
Land Rover has never made a reliable rig, so I hear you on that score. But, I would suggest that electronic gizmos MIGHT be the death knell for it — there’s no guarantee that they will be. There’s evidence aplenty that they will be, based on past models, but I think this one will need a few months and a few adventures under the platform before we know the truth about those issues. The reason I’m optimistic is that, as i said in my other post to MidOH, Land Rover has been pretty honest with themselves and the public about the fears and shortcomings for the new defender — specifically reliability and ruggedness — and claim they put extra effort into ensuring this thing would work. It’s only been properly announced for a few days, but I’ll wait for the pudding before deciding if they followed the recipe or not. As the adage goes, that’s where the proof is!
Every modern vehicle is going to have more electronics than we want, I think that’s a given. Even the new JL’s — the archetype of a “simple, mechanical 4x4” — have plenty of superfluous electronic doodads on them. But, we’ve gotten a LOT better at making those electronics. I remember when EFI became mainstream in work/adventure vehicles, and had quite a few hiccups. Folks decried EFI and swore that the only good adventure vehicle is one that has carbs, and for a long time (and still today in some circles), EFI delete kits were all the rage. However, literally anyone driving a Toyota or a Jeep (which is 90+% of us) that is less than 10 years old now has EFI, and there’s nary a problem with them. In other words, we built better systems and now they work so we hardly notice them because they don’t fail.
Another example is the electronic transfer case in GMC/Chevy Vehicles. I strongly prefer the manual transfer case knob on the floor for that mechanical engagement of 4x4, but the fact is the GM 4x4 switching system is very reliable and works very well (I’m not speaking of the “Auto” mode which is quite good, I mean the actual switching into 2HI, 4LO, and 4HI that is done electronically). So, its possible to make good electrics, the question is has LR done that this time?
Smart money says they haven’t, but smart money never has fun at the Casino either — I’m looking forward to hearing from the first few dice rollers who buy one of these!
Enthusiast II
Member III
I've said this all along, Land Rover have forgotten their heritage. It was the Defender and the Series before that which made their fortune and popularity. All they are interested in now is high prices therefore high profit. They're driving out the people who got them to where they are.
Pathfinder I
I’ve built 4runners, Rubicons, and most recently a defender all with similar builds, strange thing is that Toyota and Jeep charge more to get basic (imho) off road features, where my defender build was base model, steel wheels, explorer pack, with cold weather, and towing packages. All were within 12k of one another fully equipped to my preference. Having worked on newer jeeps I can’t see myself forking out 50k for one, EVER. The 4Runner was holding my attention since I’ve loved my FJ but they are awful proud of them, and I’m kinda underwhelmed by the specs. The defender’s specs seem to indicate that I’ll not only have a reasonably good off-roader, but that I’d be able to pull my car hauler with behind it on my more on-road weekends. The defender is most expensive, but if I like the thing after driving it, it offers a much deeper set of specs for the $$$.
Advocate I
I failed the technical inspection with my 1 year old Hilux. Among other things, I have to certify my rocksliders ( not sure how to do that ) . I am getting very annoyed with it. Plus in my new apartment the garage is smaller and I have no room left for anything.
I was thinking to wait for the new grenadier, but it just heard the launch was pushed almost another year.
I absolutely want a petrol engine, good off road, comfortable on log hours on the highway and capable to taking the load.
In Europe, except maybe the G-wagon, there is nothing that ticks al my boxes but the new defender.
I am going today to drive test one and do a bit of price negotiation.
Many complain about the price of the new defender, but the old one was also extremely expensive new, for what it was, an unsafe overprice farm vehicle.
I was thinking to wait for the new grenadier, but it just heard the launch was pushed almost another year.
I absolutely want a petrol engine, good off road, comfortable on log hours on the highway and capable to taking the load.
In Europe, except maybe the G-wagon, there is nothing that ticks al my boxes but the new defender.
I am going today to drive test one and do a bit of price negotiation.
Many complain about the price of the new defender, but the old one was also extremely expensive new, for what it was, an unsafe overprice farm vehicle.
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Advocate I
So, I never thought I will love again at 44 years old, but there you go. I just got back from the drive test and I Iove that thing.. :)
The on road manners are very good, the interior is great, and I know is good off road. ( I did not had time to do an off road test ) .
I also loved the driving position. A landcruiser prado with the 2.8 diesel and half of the option on the defender is 6k more expensive. So price is ok. And I did not like at all. I mean it was good, but i did not feel anything. I honesly like a lot more my old J120 prado than this new one.
Tomorrow I am going there with my Hilux for the dealer to make an offer on it, I already got a nice discount on what I plan to order.
The only thing that pisses me off is they don't know how long will take for delivery. Might be anything between 3 and 6 months.
So no almost no chance to do my summer holiday in it, unless I am very lucky.
The on road manners are very good, the interior is great, and I know is good off road. ( I did not had time to do an off road test ) .
I also loved the driving position. A landcruiser prado with the 2.8 diesel and half of the option on the defender is 6k more expensive. So price is ok. And I did not like at all. I mean it was good, but i did not feel anything. I honesly like a lot more my old J120 prado than this new one.
Tomorrow I am going there with my Hilux for the dealer to make an offer on it, I already got a nice discount on what I plan to order.
The only thing that pisses me off is they don't know how long will take for delivery. Might be anything between 3 and 6 months.
So no almost no chance to do my summer holiday in it, unless I am very lucky.
Influencer I
I have Land Rovers, Toyotas, and Jeeps. By far, my favorite has been the iconic Land Rover Defender 110. This was the vehicle that paved the way for all of us into this newer thing called Overlanding. Safari as it was known back in the day was meant to be more utilitarian. The new Defenders have gone mainstream, and in my opinion, LR has completely lost their way. They say it's progress...but I think it's more along the lines of output for the masses. Let's just say it, it's a cool looking road car you can put the dog in and go to the beach. Who would take any new Land Rover product out into the desert or mountains and risk getting scratches. Other than manufacturers reps, I can say just about no one. Other than older models, when is the last time you saw a new Land Rover in places where scratches happen? I go out frequently (about 30k miles per year), and I can tell you, without hesitation...None. I see all kinds of new shiny Jeeps, Tacomas, 4Runners, Chevy Colorados, Ford Rangers, and yes, even the big pickup trucks all built out. Other than Overland Expo, I have yet to see a newer Land Rover fully built and ready for action complete with desert pinstriping. However, on the Freeways of Southern California, they are everywhere! I wish Land Rover would bring back a true utilitarian beast of a truck for us to build and use.
Advocate I
I think if this was called LR5 or LR6 or whatever all this endless moaning would be gone.
I think you are wrong. Desert and off-road will be exactly the first place I will take it. Just like I took my brand new hilux, who after less than 3 weeks of ownership was saved by some significant damage by the rocksliders installed 1 week before. Scratches from branches - I got plenty. I already planned out the location of the aux battery and fridge in the new defender.
99 % - never take them off road - this is true from any brand, starting with Jeep, the most iconic and utilitarian off roader, for Land cruisers is the same and so on.
2 years ago, on a remote beach in Albania, extremely difficult to access via vehicle do to a very rocky road, full of dangerous boulders, there were 1 Pajero, me in LC Prado 120 ( Lexus 460 in US ), 1 old defender model, and the cherry on top, a family with 3 kids from Slovakia in Range Rover Sport with an RTT on it.
While I like the look of the old defenders, and admire how capable they are off-road, I would not be caught dead in one, just like like in wrangler. When I see one far from its home, the only thing that comes to mind is admiration for the stamina of their drivers. I drove a jeep for 30 km on a Highway and I could not get back fast enough back to dealership to return it.
The other issue I have with them is that I would like to survive minor accidents. Call me a coward, but I like living. both 2016 Defender and Jeep probably had the most abysmal safety rating from vehicles sold in the Western Hemisphere.
I know you like them, but they were so terrible that they would not even sold in the 3rd world anymore. ( about 2/3 of the 2016 production were sold there anyway and the number was very small ) . And the price.. omg, just like LC 76 now.. 40-50 - k euro for a farm vehicle.. with nothing - good lord..
Enthusiast III
Can you get coil springs on the 110? They don't allow it on the Land Rover build website. Looks like smallest wheels you can get are 19's which is lame, not many good tires in that size, you're better off with 20inch mall rims.
Looks like the 90 can have 18" wheels which aint too shabby, lots of options for that. But the build program forces you to replace the coil springs with air shocks (and forces a bunch of other garbage like mud flaps and lights) if you want the All Terrain Progress Control. That ATPC seems cool as a low speed cruise control, which sounds useful.
Maybe the dealer can do more selective builds. The build website forces a lot of posh garbage. Why no front locker, just a computer braking control to simulate front locking at the cost of efficiency and less torque; seems a step backwards for the premium price of the vehicle.
Its an interesting vehicle to be sure, some folks have it on the site and I'm curious how they will report them doing as time advances. One youtube channel (CO TRAILS) has cool offroading in the Defender 110. Still doesn't impress me enough consider it over a Jeep or the Bronco.
Looks like the 90 can have 18" wheels which aint too shabby, lots of options for that. But the build program forces you to replace the coil springs with air shocks (and forces a bunch of other garbage like mud flaps and lights) if you want the All Terrain Progress Control. That ATPC seems cool as a low speed cruise control, which sounds useful.
Maybe the dealer can do more selective builds. The build website forces a lot of posh garbage. Why no front locker, just a computer braking control to simulate front locking at the cost of efficiency and less torque; seems a step backwards for the premium price of the vehicle.
Its an interesting vehicle to be sure, some folks have it on the site and I'm curious how they will report them doing as time advances. One youtube channel (CO TRAILS) has cool offroading in the Defender 110. Still doesn't impress me enough consider it over a Jeep or the Bronco.
Advocate I
The 2022 model, already configurable on the UK site, even at the 110 you have the option for springs. They will also have a small airbag inside to help cope with high load. In my country configurator is not there yet. And indeed, I checked the website and you can get springs on the 110 . So it might follow soon in the rest of the world as well.
Me personally I had airbags in the back of my LC Prado and I loved them. I would order with air springs anyway.
Their websites are a mess. So I looked in the brochure with the standard equipment, looked on the site, I made a configuration and sent the link to my dealer for an offer. The official offer, in the standard equipment had more and different things than what was on the site and the brochure.
The standard LC Prado has not even a rear locker, and still does very well. I had one, and the A trac system was doing ok. I got bogged down only one time, in some kind of clay I never seen in my life...I was spinning all 4 wheels without moving an inch...
The off-road pack in the defender does add a rear locker.
At least for me, I don't see the need for a front locker. I did chose the off road pack to have the rear locker more for peace of mind and resale value,
At least in Europe, I took the base spec defender with a few options, and it had a lot more things than the mid spec LC Prado, and it came 2 k euro cheaper and 100 HP extra...
We don't get the Bronco in Europe, and will probably suffer from the same thing as the wrangler.. noise at highway speed - no good for me.
Engine choice will determine wheel size in the JLR Configurator tool. You can get 18" steelies on either the 110 or the 90, but only with the P300 engine. The P400 MHEV requires larger brakes, and those brakes prevent the fitment of larger tires from the factory, but I've been told that some smaller wheels will fit -- Lucky8, a well known Aftermarket supplier for Land Rovers, has figured out how to fit 18" wheels on a P400 Defender.
Coils are supposed to be available in North American 110s for the 22 model year. The configurator likely hasn't been updated to the new specifications. That is official according to JLR North America based on info from another forum: https://landroverforums.com/forum/a...r-score-card-ordering-22my-share-defender.pdf
As far as vehicles go -- nothing competes with the New Defender for an Overlanding application on paper in North America. It's payload and comfort put it in a totally different class than the jeep, but they are toe-to-toe off road based on all the shootouts I've seen. The Defender relies heavily on technology to do what the Jeep does with analog systems, but they both make it from trailhead to trailhead in the same way. But the guy driving the Defender will have a much nicer trip home! I think the Bronco is more Jeep-like than Defender like, and doesn't offer the near 1-ton payload that really puts Defender in it's own part of the market.
Long-term reliability is really the only question mark left on the new Defender in terms of "is it any good?". Based on what I read, those who say it's not any good are either mad that it isn't the same as the old one (in aesthetics OR in the conceptual approach to how they built the 4x4) or they are deeply concerned about reliability which is reasonable. Those who say it's good, say it's one of the best out there. In fact, the Defender was a main contender for Overland SUV of the Year from Overland Journal, but the complexity/reliability is TBD so they gave it to the Land Cruiser. The key thing will be whether or not JLR can make complex systems reliable for backcountry travel. They do not have a good track record of this, so it's reasonable to be suspicious, but I totally agree with you @Neuvik that it will be interesting to see over the next year or two of real-world performance. We know that it's possible to build incredibly complex machines that are reliable. We are surrounded by them -- phones, airplanes, etc. So that suggests to me that any reliability problem that JLR might have is fixable with the right application of attitude and resources. Whether JLR will land this one or not entirely depends on their approach. However, I think it's huge that the New Defender was in consideration for an Editors Choice award in it's first model year. That would be incredibly impressive for any class of vehicle, but I'd argue it's even more impressive given it was going toe-to-toe with the legendary Toyota Land Cruiser. To be nipping at the heels of a legend, despite a 20+ year reputation for reliability issues AND being the first year of a new vehicle tells me that this New Defender really does bring something special to the Overlanding vehicle market.
Advocate I
You have to drive it. I only did a on-road test (i had no time to go off road) , and I was very impressed. And couple of weeks ago I did a drive testg with the LC 150 Prado, the new facelift ( i think it is facelift no 3 already ) and it left me cold...
Indeed you can fit 18 inch on a P400, but you need to grind a bit the brake calipers. Not sure what will do to the warranty tough.
It comes equipped with a lot of things that you otherwise pay to have, like recovery points and such. On my Hilux, to get a recovery point in front and 1 in the back I will have to fork out 1000 euro. Same for an LC Prado 150 ( known in US as Lexus 470 ) Considering this, and the many options even the "poverty pack " that I chose, it starts to look like good deal.
You don;t need to lift it, like a wrangler, bronco or what ever else, or install special heavy load springs, the paylod is great as well. You push a button and is done . So this is something else to consider when it looks to pricey.
I agree with you ChasingOurTrunks , the new defender looks like a very good proposition as an overland truck. Out of the box is ready. The minimal spec with a few options will do fine. It is hurt by the poor JLR rep... Time will tell.
As much as I would love a p400, is a bit too much for me. So i opted out for a P300. The demo car I had was the P400 , it was very nice sounding, typical I6 growl , and with a lot of pep ... My Hilux has 150 HP, My old LC had 177, so for me this is big leap, it will do fine.
What is very strange, the base petrol version that I chose is almost 4000 euro more expensive than the base diesel... it used to be the other way around, and it made sense, on the diesel now you have to have SCR, DPF etc.. all of this is expensive..
Personally I only have 2 friends with landrovers, one has Disco4, bought in 2014 - he said he only did the regular service, very happy with it and a work colleagues, 2 year discovery sport, same thing...
But I will take extended warranty and since this will be a hobby car for me, I hope it will be ok even if it will have to spend some time in the shop...
Indeed you can fit 18 inch on a P400, but you need to grind a bit the brake calipers. Not sure what will do to the warranty tough.
It comes equipped with a lot of things that you otherwise pay to have, like recovery points and such. On my Hilux, to get a recovery point in front and 1 in the back I will have to fork out 1000 euro. Same for an LC Prado 150 ( known in US as Lexus 470 ) Considering this, and the many options even the "poverty pack " that I chose, it starts to look like good deal.
You don;t need to lift it, like a wrangler, bronco or what ever else, or install special heavy load springs, the paylod is great as well. You push a button and is done . So this is something else to consider when it looks to pricey.
I agree with you ChasingOurTrunks , the new defender looks like a very good proposition as an overland truck. Out of the box is ready. The minimal spec with a few options will do fine. It is hurt by the poor JLR rep... Time will tell.
As much as I would love a p400, is a bit too much for me. So i opted out for a P300. The demo car I had was the P400 , it was very nice sounding, typical I6 growl , and with a lot of pep ... My Hilux has 150 HP, My old LC had 177, so for me this is big leap, it will do fine.
What is very strange, the base petrol version that I chose is almost 4000 euro more expensive than the base diesel... it used to be the other way around, and it made sense, on the diesel now you have to have SCR, DPF etc.. all of this is expensive..
Personally I only have 2 friends with landrovers, one has Disco4, bought in 2014 - he said he only did the regular service, very happy with it and a work colleagues, 2 year discovery sport, same thing...
But I will take extended warranty and since this will be a hobby car for me, I hope it will be ok even if it will have to spend some time in the shop...
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