Will I hate not having a winch for Overland?

[Lindenwood]

Our main use for our 4Runner TRD Pro is as the wife's DD and our camping / adventuring vehicle. So, most of the planned upgrades are centered around increasing basic offroad capability (aggressive tires and probably a mild lift) and longevity (planning full skids and sliders, for example). So far, all of our offroading has been alone and unafraid, and I expect that will continue into the future.

That said, I am pretty sure we will always carry the 60" hi-lift when off pavement to any unknown location, and winching with one is certainly feasible with a good kit, if not obviously a bit tedious. However, the intent of all the planned recovery gear is, for us, more for emergency self recovery, rather than to enable us to actively seek overly-challenging trails and obstacles for 'wheelin's own sake. (Not knocking wheeling for fun, but we didn't buy this particular vehicle for that).

Given the winch might get used once or twice per year for self recovery, and would save maybe maybe an hour each time over using the Hi-Lift to winch out of a real bind (assuming jacking and packing wasn't the better solution), would you guys say the extra 150lbs and $1,500 (winch + hidden mount) to $3,000 (winch + Al bumper) is worth it? (Of course, I could buy a $300 HF winch and $500 mount, but I am not going to publicly admit that I have cobsidered such a blasphemous option :P ).

Honestly, the only time I can imagine a winch would be truly valuable to us is if we underestimate and try to pass through a long, muddied section of trail and get stuck in the middle with trees or embankments that prevent us from turning out. In that case, being able to winch 50+ feet without taking a long time would be pretty nice. Otherwise, I can imagine wanting to recover backwards just as often as forwards, where a front-mounted winch may or may not be helpful.




Thanks!

 

[The other Sean]

Winches and lockers kind of fall in to this category. Nice, useful, but, not "needed."

Without a winch, a person simply doesn't go in as far. and yes, using a high lift or a quality come along can work. slow and you need to pay full attention, but many times work as quite frequently, you just need to get a wheel unstuck and not a long pull.

 

[w_m_photo]

With my 2 cents, I would respectfully disagree with the above.
My list for vehicles always starts out with protection/armor and recoverability.
That translates into skids plates, tow points, and winch...
In that order. Put skids on to protect what you have. Helps prevent damage on the trail that could otherwise have you stranded.
Tow points... Because if you are doing it right, you are with someone else. Who, when needed, can give you a tug.
Winch, because if you can self recover... All the better. With any recovery safety of yourself, your passengers, and your vehicle is paramount. 99% of the time a winch is the safest option.
That being said, sometimes a tow strap is easier and the safety is negligible... So, you end up taking a pull from a friend.
And sometimes it's only about inches so that works... but getting those inches as safely as possible is always the right choice.
And in my opinion, using a HiLift as a winch... while doable, I don't believe is the safest option. I feel like it is a last resort if you are alone, your winch had kicked the buckets, and you can't devise a way around or over said obstacle using other methods...
Plus, you can help others with a winch as well... I can't even count the number of times I've used my winch, both on and off the trail.
And given the right knowledge and equipment, you can winch backwards with a forward mounted winch... sometimes it's a geometry lesson, but it's doable...
The hardest thing is winching when there is no winching pint... that's where a pulpal or land anchor comes into play...

Again... only my 2 cents...
take it for what it's worth.

 

[Billy "Poserlander" Badly]

I reckon you'll get variations on the two answers above from just about everyone. Bottom line, a winch can be very useful in helping you out of crummy situations, but I don't believe it's strictly necessary for most overlanding adventures. If I had the money to get a new front bumper w/ winch and upgrade my front suspension to handle the weight, I'd definitely get one. But, I don't, so I'll stick with the hi-lift option, and some less expensive armor for the time being.

I'm just now modifying my vehicle for the first time ever, and I spent the previous 30+ years exploring some pretty rugged terrain in a variety of stock vehicles, including a Dodge Caravan and a Honda Accord Hatchback. I survived without a winch then...

TLDR: Do you need a winch? Yes and no. Super helpful!

 

[J-Mah]

Winches are a nice piece of insurance but I believe one of the last additions to a rig. There are many other first steps to getting unstuck such as maxxtracks or a good old fashioned shovel with proper trip planning and walking precarious sections first there should be no situation a person cant think them self out of.

 

[Scott]

Winches are a nice piece of insurance but I believe one of the last additions to a rig. There are many other first steps to getting unstuck such as maxxtracks or a good old fashioned shovel with proper trip planning and walking precarious sections first there should be no situation a person cant think them self out of.

I agree with this. The only reason I have a winch is because it was a Christmas gift. Its nice to have but I have only used it a couple of times and the times I did use it, I could have easily devised a way out that did not require a winch.

Sent from my LG-H810 using Tapatalk

 

[Mad Garden Gnome]

Winches and lockers kind of fall in to this category. Nice, useful, but, not "needed."

Without a winch, a person simply doesn't go in as far. and yes, using a high lift or a quality come along can work. slow and you need to pay full attention, but many times work as quite frequently, you just need to get a wheel unstuck and not a long pull.

Sometime a winch is used when someone figures out they've gone in too far.

 

[Lindenwood]

Tow points... Because if you are doing it right, you are with someone else.

Not to be snarky, but I thought there was no "right" way to overland? In any case, whether right or wrong, I am still quite certain most of our trips will be single-vehicle for reasons both in and out of our control

And given the right knowledge and equipment, you can winch backwards with a forward mounted winch... sometimes it's a geometry lesson, but it's doable...

Oh, this is certainly true! But, it requires either pretty well-placed trees or, what I expect after we move to NM, two very good ground anchors. Now I have 300lb of winch, winch mount, 2 extra snatch blocks, and spare ground anchor. And, as a backup, I probably also still have the hi-lift and all the gear necessary to winch with that, totaling perhaps 500lb of recovery gear on my rig! That is a lot, heh.


Still, not at all saying I am unconvinced. I started this thread because I am on the fence. But, one thing I have found difficult is segregating the situations where people actually needed a winch. Some people say "I use my winch all the time!" But it turns out they are usually just out wheelin with buddies on the weekends, daring each other over obstacles of ever-increasing difficulty. Then, others say "I drove 1,000,000 miles touring the most remote parts of the country and never once needed anything beyond my floor mats and a shovel!" But, it turns out they didn't clarify that 99.9% of that was on pavement or gravel, or glossed over the several times they were stuck in a ditch overnight or took 12 hours digging themselves out with a shovel :P . I used to daily drive a lifted Samurai on 31"MTs with a locked rear end, and used my HF winch twice a week doing the "hey Skeeter, lets see if I can make it up that!" kindof stuff. But, now I am going to largely avoid that mindset with this vehicle, partially because I don't want to tear up my relatively expensive DD, but also because I know getting stuck with your girl and the dogs tends to really rob a lot of romance from the whole adventure!

It is certainly not that I intend to avoid any challenges. If some trail or obstacle does look challenging, yet the finishline is close and feels like it will be worth it, I intend to do what I can to proceed, but with much more caution than I would have in my old days. Thus, I expect when I do need to self recover, it is likely just needing to lift a vehicle out of a deep rut or pop the frame off a stump, rather than trying to drag myself 75 feet up a rock garden. Or, in a lot of cases, it will probably just be a matter of kicking the MaxTrax under the tires and backing out!

Then, at the same time, I can totally imagine a case where being able to winch my vehicle up that 75 foot incline results in a spectacular view or that much more isolation! Arg! Decisions!

In short, it is that ever-increasing weight, plus the $800 (HF winch and hidden mount) to $3,000 (Warn and Aluminum bumper) price tag (not to mention an extra battery for the winch?), that are obviously the major downsides to the winch. Then, it is trying to determine if my expected adventure style will justify it. I'll probably end putting it off for a while and then wishing I had one at some point before just biting the bullet and getting one, heh.

 

[9Mike2]

A Winch is nice to have, but not a must. But don't travel alone, always have a partner vehicle, and some good straps and line............
I take my line off in between trips to one , get the syn. line out of the sun and I have had people mess with the winch and line when it was parked

 

[w_m_photo]

I'm, a bit surprised at the people above...
We are talking about recover tools...
Good "trip planning" and " going too far" really have nothing to do with it.
Both of those are subjective... No one ever has in their trip plan for them to slip into a ditch or come across a tree blocking their way...
And in every case when something does happen where you have to recover either yourself or another... Well, then you have "gone too far"
By those standards, why do any of us ever carry recovery tools?

So, in an ideal world, everyone should have a winch on their vehicle... Just like everyone should have a fire extinguisher in their kit as well.

I've used my winch for everything... self recover, recovery of others, removing trees from a trail, helping to guide trees the right direction when taking them down, recovering people who have gone into a ditch off the highway, to bending a bumper off of a friends tire...
A winch is a tool not a statement.
When it comes to safety, it is by and far the safest way to self recover. Given that you know how to use your winch.
As far as cost... Yes, you should make sure your mount is as strong as the vehicle... so, a new bumper may be in order for you depending on your vehicle.
And, you don't need to purchase a $1500 winch... I went with a Warn xd9000... $900 at the time. A bit pricy I know... But, I like it and it has never failed me.
There are other options than the Harbor Freight special... Smitybuilt has a decent one for $400... 10,000 lbs water proof... Lifetime warranty... the only thing I would do is add a synthetic line to it...

So, I put it to you this way.
Everybody has a story of how they got past this obstacle without this certain item... And I agree it is almost always possible to get past/over obstacles without a winch.
But, the thread starter specifically stated that they off-road alone and will probably continue to do so... I would recommend against that. But, if that is what they are doing. Then absolutely they should go above and beyond in planning ahead of time to be the safest they can for what ever may happen.
Heaven forbid they go out somewhere, get stuck, try to get unstuck, and something happens that leaves one of more of them incapacitated. I would much rather advise someone to chose the safest method than the most of the time it's ok method...

 

[SquareBodyAdventures]

I'd say a which is one of the best tools to add to your overlanding rig!!

Sent from my XT1254 using OB Talk mobile app

 

[Billy "Poserlander" Badly]

I'm, a bit surprised at the people above...
We are talking about recover tools...
Good "trip planning" and " going too far" really have nothing to do with it.
Both of those are subjective... No one ever has in their trip plan for them to slip into a ditch or come across a tree blocking their way...
And in every case when something does happen where you have to recover either yourself or another... Well, then you have "gone too far"
By those standards, why do any of us ever carry recovery tools?

So, in an ideal world, everyone should have a winch on their vehicle... Just like everyone should have a fire extinguisher in their kit as well.

I've used my winch for everything... self recover, recovery of others, removing trees from a trail, helping to guide trees the right direction when taking them down, recovering people who have gone into a ditch off the highway, to bending a bumper off of a friends tire...
A winch is a tool not a statement.
When it comes to safety, it is by and far the safest way to self recover. Given that you know how to use your winch.
As far as cost... Yes, you should make sure your mount is as strong as the vehicle... so, a new bumper may be in order for you depending on your vehicle.
And, you don't need to purchase a $1500 winch... I went with a Warn xd9000... $900 at the time. A bit pricy I know... But, I like it and it has never failed me.
There are other options than the Harbor Freight special... Smitybuilt has a decent one for $400... 10,000 lbs water proof... Lifetime warranty... the only thing I would do is add a synthetic line to it...

So, I put it to you this way.
Everybody has a story of how they got past this obstacle without this certain item... And I agree it is almost always possible to get past/over obstacles without a winch.
But, the thread starter specifically stated that they off-road alone and will probably continue to do so... I would recommend against that. But, if that is what they are doing. Then absolutely they should go above and beyond in planning ahead of time to be the safest they can for what ever may happen.
Heaven forbid they go out somewhere, get stuck, try to get unstuck, and something happens that leaves one of more of them incapacitated. I would much rather advise someone to chose the safest method than the most of the time it's ok method...

So, don't ever explore alone or without a winch? Man, I guess I've been doing it wrong my whole life.

Honestly, I think it's a bad message to send that you shouldn't overland without a winch. Many people enjoy this hobby without a great deal of disposable income, and they have to prioritize their modifications. That certainly applies to me, and at the moment, I can't afford a winch, but I'm still gonna go on adventures, like I always have (also without a winch). It's always a matter of weighing costs to benefits, and while the benefits of a winch are great, the costs can be too...

I guess it can also come down to how we approach this activity. There's a heavy emphasis on modified off road vehicles on this forum, which is only natural, but this group is supposed to be for anyone who uses a vehicle to explore, winch or no winch. And I think it's fair to say you can still be a safe and responsible overlander even if you don't have a winch.

WINCH WINCH WINCH... I've typed it so much, it doesn't look like a real word anymore...

 

[Lindenwood]

I am actually surprised at the emphasis on not traveling alone, given a good chunk of the articles written by this site's creators talk about them going out alone for days at a time.

We will certainly not limit our outdoors time for an optimistic quest to find
1) another couple interested in the outdoors
2) who we like enough to spend days at a time with
3) who likes us enough to spend days at a time with us
4) who has the flexibility to go out for a full weekend or longer
5) who has the schedule to go with some regularity
6) and, our biggest limiter, also has a capable offroad vehicle!

If all those blocks happen to fall in place, I am sure we would love the company! But, until then, none of our close friends fulfil #6, so the most likely way we will have company is if another couple is in the back seat.

Ultimately, I'm sure we'll eventually add a winch. If nothing else, a $500 hidden winch mount and a $500 Smitty with a synthetic line might not be too hard to swallow. But it is admittedly not at the top of the list of upgrade priorities.

One thought: I figure it is maybe an extra 5 minutes of setup time compared to a winch, from unmounting the jack plus the couple extra steps in setting up the lines and kit. Then, perhaps 5 minutes per 4 feet of travel with a 60" hi lift (a casual 1 pump every 3 seconds at .75" per pump gives about 4 ft in 3 minutes, and adjusting a couple hooks and resetting the lifting mechanism aren't that hard). So, if you have to winch 20 feet, that would be about 30 minutes with a hi lift (10 mins of setup plus 20 minutes of winching) vs maybe 7 minutes (5 minutes of setup and 2 minutes of winching) with a good winch, no? Has anyone here actually recovered by winching with a hi lift? I am just curious how this checks with reality.

 

[w_m_photo]

So, let me give everyone reading this thread a preface... If you read my posts often you will see I have been doing this for many years... With my family in tow. And all across this country and a few others. I'm not saying I'm the guru of off road driving. I would never say that. What I am saying is, I've got a bit of experience, and I value safety above everything else. As should you too.

When ever I give advice I give what I see as the safest method. I've never said you can't go off-roading alone. I've said you shouldn't from a safety point of view go off-roading alone.
I have also never said you can't go off-road with out a winch. Again, from a safety point of view I would say a winch is the best option. And again, especially if you are off road with only one vehicle.

So, yes, from experience, using a HiLift for winching is painfully slow. Heck, I've even buried a HiLift to use as a land anchor before... Again, pain it the ass, but it worked. I can only imagine how much fun that would have been if I had only had the HiLift that time... However, just like everyone on this thread has said. It is doable.
I've been involved a few times where it has taken more than one winch to recover a vehicle. There is a reason why it says RESCUE on the side of my vehicle.
Like I have been saying, is it the safest? No. Is it the fastest? No. If someone is asking how I would do it... No, I'd get a winch.

So, there is no misunderstanding and so no one puts words into my mouth. This is not the only way, however, it is my recommendation.

1. since someone asked in the start of this thread, Yes I would recommend getting a winch.
2. since it has come up. No, traveling alone in the back country is not the best practice.
3. Read above, I'm not saying you should never go into the back country alone. I'm just saying it is a risk that needs to be considered while discussing recover equipment.
Adding people and vehicles to your group increases your safety every time...
4. I would assume the reason a lot of people are on this forum is to both learn how to be safer and to find groups to explore with.
I of course could be wrong, but that is why I'm on here.

If you have any questions, please ask.
I'm done with this thread. I've given my advice. Take it or leave it.
Good luck and stay safe.

 

[Lindenwood]

Thanks for the insights!

I think it was easy to distracted from the winch advice when you said that overlanding only with other capable offroad vehicles is "right," allowing reasonable inference that you thought going alone is "wrong." Really, it sounds like we don't actually disagree on any the fundamental safety stuff, as my first upgrade when I get home will be a full set of skids and sliders, and I do actually carry a fire extinguisher!

Certainly, nobody will argue that a winch is not better or safer for winching. But, like everything, folks put them in different locations on the spectrum of upgrade priorities, and not just from a financial perspective. Lots of upgrades and accessories make a vehicle "safer," of course. But, if I added them all to my 4runner I'd double its weight and be living the "Daily Driver as an Overland Rig" article where its too big to park anywhere, can't hold any of our non-offroading gear, is loud as hell on the highway from things dragging in the wind, and drops from 20-22mpg down to 13-14.

So, please don't take my apparent lack of enthusiasm as disrespect or lack of appreciation. It is actually from your advice that I now largely consider it still necessarey to have a full HiLift winching kit in addition to the winch, rather than having only the winch to pull and the hi-lift to lift. This is how I am getting to such high weights.

But, this is all about reaching a practical balance for our goals. I have never been stuck in a 4wd vehicle unless I was deliberately choosing to challenge it. Knowing that, but still accounting for the occasional "crap happens" event, if I have to spend a minimum of a thousand bucks and carry an extra 300lb of gear to probably only save me half an hour once or twice per year, it is certainly a purchase that at least warrants a little scrunity, no?

Thanks again!

 

[Billy "Poserlander" Badly]

So, let me give everyone reading this thread a preface... If you read my posts often you will see I have been doing this for many years... With my family in tow. And all across this country and a few others. I'm not saying I'm the guru of off road driving. I would never say that. What I am saying is, I've got a bit of experience, and I value safety above everything else. As should you too.

When ever I give advice I give what I see as the safest method. I've never said you can't go off-roading alone. I've said you shouldn't from a safety point of view go off-roading alone.
I have also never said you can't go off-road with out a winch. Again, from a safety point of view I would say a winch is the best option. And again, especially if you are off road with only one vehicle.

So, yes, from experience, using a HiLift for winching is painfully slow. Heck, I've even buried a HiLift to use as a land anchor before... Again, pain it the ass, but it worked. I can only imagine how much fun that would have been if I had only had the HiLift that time... However, just like everyone on this thread has said. It is doable.
I've been involved a few times where it has taken more than one winch to recover a vehicle. There is a reason why it says RESCUE on the side of my vehicle.
Like I have been saying, is it the safest? No. Is it the fastest? No. If someone is asking how I would do it... No, I'd get a winch.

So, there is no misunderstanding and so no one puts words into my mouth. This is not the only way, however, it is my recommendation.

1. since someone asked in the start of this thread, Yes I would recommend getting a winch.
2. since it has come up. No, traveling alone in the back country is not the best practice.
3. Read above, I'm not saying you should never go into the back country alone. I'm just saying it is a risk that needs to be considered while discussing recover equipment.
Adding people and vehicles to your group increases your safety every time...
4. I would assume the reason a lot of people are on this forum is to both learn how to be safer and to find groups to explore with.
I of course could be wrong, but that is why I'm on here.

If you have any questions, please ask.
I'm done with this thread. I've given my advice. Take it or leave it.
Good luck and stay safe.

I appreciate your considered and well informed opinion, and I wasn't intending my response to put words in your mouth. All any of us can do here is offer our personal perspective, within the context of our personal experience. It shouldn't be acrimonious, and I hope that's not how I came across.

And, when I can afford it, I will be getting a winch...

 

[O.Dfj]

If you like to get stuck in ditches like me you need a winch lol.

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[vegasjeepguy]

As a winch owner since 2008, I have used it three times and never for self recovery. Two times were pulling people out of snowy ditches and the third was to pull a bush out of my yard roots and all (and it worked beautifully). That said, I am so glad to have the peace of mind of having a winch. Just because I have never needed it for self recovery and only twice to assist others, the number of times it was close and I got lucky by not getting into trouble because I slid in one direction rather than another or was able to avoid a bad situation by the skin of my teeth made having the winch no less necessary. Any one of those situations going the other way and the winch would've been a lifesaver (perhaps a slight exaggeration).

Bottom line, a winch is not necessary but definitely near the top of my list of vehicle mods. It's not smart to go 4 wheeling alone, but overlanding is different. While overlanding can be a social event, it certainly does lend itself to heading out solo and that is when a winch makes self recovery much easier.

 

[Lindenwood]

the number of times it was close and I got lucky by not getting into trouble because I slid in one direction rather than another or was able to avoid a bad situation by the skin of my teeth made having the winch no less necessary. Any one of those situations going the other way and the winch would've been a lifesaver (perhaps a slight exaggeration).
.

Out of curiosity, under what circumstances were these "skin of your teeth" scenarios? Specifically, were they:
1) Situations where you were genuinely just trying to get from Point A (your home) to Point B (some epic campsite on top of a mountain), and the only way to get there were through really challenging terrain that was risky-but-totally-worth-the-view?

Or 2) situations where you were hitting deliberately-challenging obstacles for the sake of hitting deliberately-challenging obstacles?

Thanks!

 

[vegasjeepguy]

Out of curiosity, under what circumstances were these "skin of your teeth" scenarios? Specifically, were they:
1) Situations where you were genuinely just trying to get from Point A (your home) to Point B (some epic campsite on top of a mountain), and the only way to get there were through really challenging terrain that was risky-but-totally-worth-the-view?

Or 2) situations where you were hitting deliberately-challenging obstacles for the sake of hitting deliberately-challenging obstacles?

Thanks!

Situation 1 definitely best describes it. Since my vehicle is my daily driver I tend to be conservative and avoid situations and obstacles that increase the chances of getting in to trouble (off camber, steep grades, boulder fields, etc.).