Trailer electricity question

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Pierre C

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Good evening to all,

Here’s my set up. A GR31 battery connect to the house battery through a VSR when I’m driving. I can connect to A/C with a NOCO G26000. Can I put an inverter to transform my D/C to A/C and than through the G26000 all the time when driving? If so, how strong the inverter need to be?

Thanks in advance.
 

SquishBang

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Are you trying to charge the house battery whilst driving?
If the G26000 is rated to charge at 26A, I would allow at least 40A (accounting for losses) going into an inverter (at least a 500w continuous rated inverter) to run a G26000 at full load. But, the G26000 may not always require full load.

Another option to charge a 12v battery whilst driving is a Renogy 20A or 40A DC-DC charger. (20A is probably enough)

Hopefully I didn't misunderstand what you are trying to do
 

Pierre C

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Are you trying to charge the house battery whilst driving?
If the G26000 is rated to charge at 26A, I would allow at least 40A (accounting for losses) going into an inverter (at least a 500w continuous rated inverter) to run a G26000 at full load. But, the G26000 may not always require full load.

Another option to charge a 12v battery whilst driving is a Renogy 20A or 40A DC-DC charger. (20A is probably enough)

Hopefully I didn't misunderstand what you are trying to do
Hi!
I want to charge my trailer GR31. I was thinking that I need to convert D/C to A/C through an inverter to supply the G26. Doing so, I would have to buy a DC to DC charger. If I see that correctly, I don’t even need the VSR because of the G26. Am I correct?
 

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Using an inverter to convert DC to AC so you can power an AC charger is quite inefficient. The GR31 battery is not true deep cycle. Unless the tow vehicle is running, AND the alternator can keep up with the needs of an inverter, the GR31 battery will have decreased life.

The absolute best method to keep your trailer battery charged is a DC to DC charger. The RENOGY 20a version would be ideal in your situation. Now that prices for these devices have come way down, they are the best alternative. A no brainer!

Be sure to used the correct size wire from your GR31 to the DC to DC charger. And mount the charger as close to the trailer battery as possible.

You'd be in charging heaven!
 

SquishBang

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Hi!
I want to charge my trailer GR31. I was thinking that I need to convert D/C to A/C through an inverter to supply the G26. Doing so, I would have to buy a DC to DC charger. If I see that correctly, I don’t even need the VSR because of the G26. Am I correct?
You wouldn't need a VSR. The Renogy 20A could handle everything. The Renogy won't try charging unless the engine is running and the GR31 needs it.
 

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A DC to DC charging is the most efficient method. 7 Pin charging will do a very slow charge to the trailer battery. I have never heard of using an inverter to charge a trailer battery. I have yet to install a Renogy DC to DC charger but it is on the wish list although I don't have any power hungry devices on my trailer. The only challenge with a DC to DC is I would have to run cabling from the engine bay or my vehicle to the back and then a proper connector like an Anderson plug to connect everything.

My current setup is 7 pin, shore power when available with a Noco charger, and solar with a Renogy Rover MPPT controller with Bluetooth. Being in the sunny southwest solar pretty much takes care of everything. I would really like to switch to a lithium battery to save weight but that means change out the Noco charger and making sure whatever DC to DC charger I buy is compatible. My Renogy Rover already is.

My 2 cents but there are folks here that are far more knowledgable on this.
 
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smritte

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A DC to DC charging is the most efficient method. 7 Pin charging will do a very slow charge to the trailer battery. I have never heard of using an inverter to charge a trailer battery. I have yet to install a Renogy DC to DC charger but it is on the wish list although I don't have any power hungry devices on my trailer. The only challenge with a DC to DC is I would have to run cabling from the engine bay or my vehicle to the back and then a proper connector like an Anderson plug to connect everything.

My current setup is 7 pin, shore power when available with a Noco charger, and solar with a Renogy Rover MPPT controller with Bluetooth. Being in the sunny southwest solar pretty much takes care of everything. I would really like to switch to a lithium battery to save weight but that means change out the Noco charger and making sure whatever DC to DC charger I buy is compatible. My Renogy Rover already is.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Simplest sometimes is best
 

Pierre C

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A DC to DC charging is the most efficient method. 7 Pin charging will do a very slow charge to the trailer battery. I have never heard of using an inverter to charge a trailer battery. I have yet to install a Renogy DC to DC charger but it is on the wish list although I don't have any power hungry devices on my trailer. The only challenge with a DC to DC is I would have to run cabling from the engine bay or my vehicle to the back and then a proper connector like an Anderson plug to connect everything.

My current setup is 7 pin, shore power when available with a Noco charger, and solar with a Renogy Rover MPPT controller with Bluetooth. Being in the sunny southwest solar pretty much takes care of everything. I would really like to switch to a lithium battery to save weight but that means change out the Noco charger and making sure whatever DC to DC charger I buy is compatible. My Renogy Rover already is.

My 2 cents but there are folks here that are far more knowledgable on this.
I don’t have a 7 pins. I have an Anderson plug. So charging is good.
 

SquishBang

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7 pin charging can ( I should say WILL) lead to under-charged battery in the trailer.
The Renogy is what's known as a "Boost Charger". Even though the electrical system in your vehicle generally supplies 14+ volts when running which is sufficient to charge the underhood vehicle battery which happens to be very close to the alternator, it's a different story going to the trailer connector at the back of your vehicle.

You should anticipate at least a 1.5V drop to your trailer 7 pin, which would put you at no more than <13V when driving, and even less at idle. This is far below the required charging profile of an AGM battery. AGM batteries will give their rated performance when charged at 14.6-14.8V which will never occur merely from a 7 pin. You certainly will get reduced capacity at lower charging voltages, and you can even reduce the life of the battery constantly under-charging it and deep cycling it.

I do not know what vehicle you have. I have a full size truck with a tow package, the OEM provided 7 pin has 30A available to it on pin 4, for running a trailer's electrical system. Conveniently, on my truck, this 30A circuit runs through a heavy-duty DPST underhood relay, so the truck will kill power to pin 4 when not running which preserves the truck battery.

The Renogy 20A DC-DC charger is rated to charge at a maximum of 20A at 14.7V (ideal for AGM). It is 90% efficient, meaning at full power it will pull 323 watts from your 7 pin connector and associated wiring. When the truck is running, presuming you have at least 12VDC at pin 4, this will only be a load of 27A worst-case which in most full-size tow vehicles will be under the 30A minimum provided to pin 4. However, unless a battery is fully depleted, the Renogy will rarely pull 27A, and only in cases when the vehicle is idling and the trailer battery is completely discharged. Higher vehicle voltages at pin 4 will reduce the current the Renogy pulls.
For $129 this is a no-brainer to me. Your AGM battery will last longer both in life and in standby and under load. You will enjoy your battery powered devices much longer.
If you want to "KISS" you could always install a bypass for the Renogy in case it ever failed, a simple circuit like a small battery switch in parallel to the Renogy would allow you to charge the AGM even if the Renogy is inoperative...that would keep "KISS" in play but is likely not needed as the Renogy appears reliable by customer feedback.
 

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Jason, what size wire do you have going to pin #4 to see 30A charging. I've measured lots of factory wiring harnesses and never seen close to that much current. Maximum I've recorded is about 7 amps. And that was a rather short run from vehicle alternator to 7 pin plug. What truck do you have? Thanks
 

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I have a 2007 Nissan Titan. I would guess that any FS truck or SUV (with an OEM tow package) would have the same 30A capacity. A few years back I did look at the wire harness under the truck to the 7pin, and if I had to guess I'd say the wire that I suppose would be pin 4 appeared to be about 10AWG. My truck is very long, 10AWG is just barely enough to handle 30A without too much voltage drop to it. However, I would not hesitate to use a 20A Renogy in a trailer. Remember, most FS trucks/SUVs with a proper OEM tow package will have enough power on pin 4 available to support the typical travel trailer or such. I have even used a 2 yard dump trailer with my truck that had a hydraulic dump function that ran off of my 7 pin.

Some FS vehicles do not have this 30A circuit in them. I can speak for Titans and Armadas that do not have the factory "Big Tow" they only have a 4 pin in the back. I don't think the harness installed on those non-tow equipped trucks can support a 30A 7 pin. Certainly, those trucks can have a 7 pin added later, but they may not provide much power, or any power to pin 4 if it isn't wired-up correctly.

I'll try and attach a FSM of my truck's tow package wiring, again I am certain all manufacturers would use a very similar setup (note that Nissan the FSM shows trailer power ending at "pin 5" that is the OEM connector pin at the back of the 7 pin, pin 5 goes to pin 4 on the actual 7 pin)
tow.jpg
 

SquishBang

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Roy, I want to add this:

They mention that the available power to a trailer isn't enough for much over a 5aH battery. He states that you need to use a specific battery charger should you want to use your 7 pin to charge a battery (it's at the bottom of his post, it's basically an expensive version of the Renogy). He just basically touches on what I was saying, there's enough current capacity in MOST 7 pin connectors, but the voltage drop needs to be corrected.

I also looked at other trucks, RAM HD trucks (2500-3500) have a 40A circuit to pin 4. So, it will totally depend on your vehicle and if you have an OEM tow package installed.

I guess the real question is what vehicle do you have, and does it have a 7 pin that came factory as part of the OEM tow package?
 

SquishBang

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I have a 2015 Cherokee with OEM 7 pin and tow package, it will charge my trailer battery.
If the trailer battery is just wired directly to the 7 pin, it is not being charged sufficiently.

Connecting the trailer to 120VAC for charging when not in use will suffice for short trips, but when doing long duration overland trips it would be beneficial to run a DC-DC boost inverter for charging as the SUV can't provide the sufficient voltage to keep your trailer battery properly and fully charged.

Your setup might suit your needs just fine if you keep the trailer on a 120VAC maintenance charger
 
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RoyB

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OK, I'm totally baffled....I did some checking on my truck...2018 RAM 2500 with snowprep and tow package. This gives me a 220a alternator and a trailer brake controller with 7 pin trailer plug. A bit of research and I'm finding that pin #4, using a 10g factory installed wire, has a 30A fuse at the fuse box. This wire is about 25' in length from my eyeball observation.

But, RENOGY recommends , for a 25' run from front of vehicle to the back, with the 40a DC to DC charger, that you use 4awg wire???? And for the 20A DC to DC charger you use 6awg.......

The "Engineering Tool Box" Amps and Wire Gauge in 12V Electrical Circuits says a 10g wire at 25' will only handle 10 amps ....But remember, for a 12V system you need to add the supply and return, which would be 40-50'. At 50' a 10g wire will only handle 8A, which is what I've measured many times.

I'm not sure is the 7pin plug on my truck uses the chassis as a return or if it has another 10g wire in the harness for ground (return). Chassis return for any high current 12V circuit is playing russian roulette. There are too many areas between various metal components in a vehicle that could cause resistance, heat, low voltage, lord knows what. Always best to run same gauge wire for "hot" and "ground".

Tomorrow I'm going to hook up a near depleted, AGM test battery to pin #7 and do some testing.........
 

SquishBang

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OK, I'm totally baffled....I did some checking on my truck...2018 RAM 2500 with snowprep and tow package. This gives me a 220a alternator and a trailer brake controller with 7 pin trailer plug. A bit of research and I'm finding that pin #4, using a 10g factory installed wire, has a 30A fuse at the fuse box. This wire is about 25' in length from my eyeball observation.

But, RENOGY recommends , for a 25' run from front of vehicle to the back, with the 40a DC to DC charger, that you use 4awg wire???? And for the 20A DC to DC charger you use 6awg.......

The "Engineering Tool Box" Amps and Wire Gauge in 12V Electrical Circuits says a 10g wire at 25' will only handle 10 amps ....But remember, for a 12V system you need to add the supply and return, which would be 40-50'. At 50' a 10g wire will only handle 8A, which is what I've measured many times.

I'm not sure is the 7pin plug on my truck uses the chassis as a return or if it has another 10g wire in the harness for ground (return). Chassis return for any high current 12V circuit is playing russian roulette. There are too many areas between various metal components in a vehicle that could cause resistance, heat, low voltage, lord knows what. Always best to run same gauge wire for "hot" and "ground".

Tomorrow I'm going to hook up a near depleted, AGM test battery to pin #7 and do some testing.........
You are totally correct! I will point out a few things about wire ampacity:
-Wire ampacity can be stated in regard to temperature rise (basically, the wire won't become unsafe and burn)
-Wire ampacity can be stated in regard to voltage drop.

So, you may find on the interwebs, many definitions of what 10AWG wire can handle (sounds like your truck has similar config as my Titan). I can find a chart that shows 12AWG could handle 30A! (this would be the chart that allows high temp rise of a conductor) And I can find a chart that would prefer 6AWG if low V drop is required.
Problem for 12VDC is we start with a fairly low voltage, and any V drop worsens it. With higher voltages, V drop is less of a concern.
The 30A fuse selected by our truck manufacturers protects the wire and connectors. It does not guarantee we will have a reasonable V drop at 30A. It only guarantees our truck won't burn down or suffer a failure at some point.

The Renogy wire charts assumes worst case scenario, a 20A Renogy will try it's damndest to maintain 20A at 14.7V output, meaning it COULD pull as much as 323 watts overall (90% efficiency), as the input voltage drops (because 10AWG wire) the current will rise. At 13 VDC the current would only be about 24.8A, HOWEVER, if the 10AWG wire suffers a 2 V drop at 24.8A, we are now looking at 11 VDC and the Renogy will begin pulling 29.4A, and should we experience another 1 V drop the Renogy will begin pulling 32.3A at which point the fuse will open (theoretically) and charging will cease. The Renogy is capable of pulling ever higher currents until (I believe) 8V input.

However, I doubt a properly used/maintained AGM will cause a Renogy to work so hard.

I like your idea. If it were me, I would find a 30A @ 12VDC load and connect it to the 7 pin while the truck is running, I'd measure the V drop and current draw and determine if the truck could support the 20A Renogy.

Personally, I'd install a Renogy 20A and test to see if the OEM wiring is sufficient. Worst case, upgrade the wiring to the 7 pin. Or, add a separate wired circuit from a Tyco 75A relay (I use these in my truck for the lighting system and another for my AC inverter so both circuits aren't always powered)
I was going to run an AGM in the back of my truck and use a 20A Renogy to maintain it as I drove around, but I decided to get a Noco GB70 instead to keep me safe if I kill my main battery in the outback. I wouldn't want to torture an expensive/nice AGM with unconditioned charging. You definitely want a DC-DC charger to keep an AGM at peak condition.
 

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Thank you....learning every day!

In my truck I ran 2awg from the front for both the RENOGY 40A DC to DC charger and I also use a 6500# winch on the rear tow receiver at times. 2awg is a bit light for the winch but I've been using it to haul logs, load implements onto a flatbed trailer and other tasks and haven't set the truck on fire yet! I have it protected by a 150a circuit breaker. It is near 10 years old and has been used on two trucks. This 2018 gasser and a 2006 Dodge diesel. Same wire transplanted from the 06 to the 18.

In the Toyota Venza with a 150a alternator and a much shorter run, I went with 4awg for the RENOGY DC to DC Charger.

I have a AiLi battery meter on my portable battery box that I charge from both vehicles using Anderson Plugs to connect. I've seen as much as 38amps going into the battery on both vehicles and after 20 minutes or so the wires are not even warm.

I'm loving the RENOGY as I don't carry a generator any longer. If my solar can't keep up with the 100Ah AGM in the battery box, I simply idle the tow vehicle for 20-30 minutes or take a ride somewhere and I'm back to near full.

IMG_20200226_093612803.jpg

DSC01291.jpg
 

SquishBang

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Thank you....learning every day!

In my truck I ran 2awg from the front for both the RENOGY 40A DC to DC charger and I also use a 6500# winch on the rear tow receiver at times. 2awg is a bit light for the winch but I've been using it to haul logs, load implements onto a flatbed trailer and other tasks and haven't set the truck on fire yet! I have it protected by a 150a circuit breaker. It is near 10 years old and has been used on two trucks. This 2018 gasser and a 2006 Dodge diesel. Same wire transplanted from the 06 to the 18.

In the Toyota Venza with a 150a alternator and a much shorter run, I went with 4awg for the RENOGY DC to DC Charger.

I have a AiLi battery meter on my portable battery box that I charge from both vehicles using Anderson Plugs to connect. I've seen as much as 38amps going into the battery on both vehicles and after 20 minutes or so the wires are not even warm.

I'm loving the RENOGY as I don't carry a generator any longer. If my solar can't keep up with the 100Ah AGM in the battery box, I simply idle the tow vehicle for 20-30 minutes or take a ride somewhere and I'm back to near full.
Very nice setups! The Renogy probably runs perfectly.

Years ago I wired up my 19' boat with dual batteries (flooded lead acid and a USA-made blue-top Optima) and VSR and ACR. For the wiring I went one size higher on every calculation, if it called for 6AWG, I used 4AWG. I did this because I take this boat on the ocean occasionally and I need to be sure the electrical system will never fail. The batteries are automatically disconnected by the VSR if voltage drops to low to prevent a totally dead battery, and the ACR will only connect the batteries to the alternator or shore charger if the available charge voltage is suitable. If either system needs to be bypassed, I can manually do so which means the boat will always start when out on the ocean or in the Puget Sound.
This setup has worked so well, that both batteries are still good as of the 2019 season, and they are date-coded 2007!

This is why I am a huge proponent of proper battery charging, batteries that last at least 12 years? Amazing. Take care of the batteries and they will go on and on far longer than typical car battery.