OB Approved This is for everyone, OVERLANDING Safety in numbers!

[Lindenwood]

Great responses!

I fly for the AF. We debrief negative experiences very deeply so that ithers can learn from the mistakes. Mishaps almost always happen after a series of inperfect decisions, so understanding the mindset which might have led to those decisions is key to helping others recognize when they are headed down a similar path and avoid it.

I don't think Id ever take that much risk with my vehicle(s), or my life for that matter. But, it certainly makes a case for having good recovery gear and the skill to use it. I can just imagine, for example, using a front-mounted winch line secured at an angle away from the cliff. Then, use either another winching system, like a hi-lift with a winch kit to pull from the rear, also at an angle away from the cliff. Certainly makes for an interesting though experiment, at least!

 

[boehml]

Thanks for the share. I think what resonates the most is knowing your limits and playing within them, like others said. We can't all read the future, but knowing when 1+1 = shit is an important thing in the bush.

 

[wolftaco0503]

Cross posted to Tacomaworld.com

 

[Darthbaggins]

I'm bad about going down trails by myself, but I do have my CB when needed and recovery gear at the ready. Around here on the island I have plenty of people to call via cell or radio that can yank me out of a problem. Now in GA I listen to my gut alot (never steers me wrong) plus when in doubt I walk the route a bit to get a plan of attack etc. Also in GA I normally do try to go riding w/ friends, I learned young to never go camping/back packing solo and make sure to tell other's where you'll be and planned time of arrival etc.

 

[Boort]

To all of the folks with experience I'd like to ask this question:

Had you found yourself / rig in the situation: On snow field, both left tires off slope, and rig off camber enough to lock up seat belt. How would you proceed?
This is your rig with what ever you have onboard for a normal overland trip through the Colorado mountains. How do you self rescue?

I ask because could have been 1500 feet from a similar situation a few years ago on Mosquito pass between Brek and Leadville. After rounding the first large switchback with snow I came upon an incline on the North side of a slope that had iced up the night before, I recognized it was beyond the limits of my skills and equipment and turned around. But would like to hear what methods and equipment would be useful in that situation. I mention self rescue, thinking it could just as easily be my left wheels spinning in air from sliding off pavement into a 2' deep Ag ditch on my way home from work as up on a mountain trail with a 250' dropoff.

Boort

 

[Anak]

I know this might not be popular, but I want to address the "safety first" mentality.

Overlanding is about being safe-ish. Let's be honest, if any of us put safety first, we would never be more than five minutes from the local ER. What we do is risky, but with risk comes reward; we can mitigate that risk with skill, thought, and the right gear - but we still accept that risk. We go out into places where vehicles can be damaged, we can be injured, and bad things can happen a very long way from help. There must be a reason for us to take on this risk, and that reason might be different for different people. Why do people climb mountains, jump out of planes, or sail out of sight of the land? Because it is there, for the thrill, to see what might be over the horizon. All of these apply to any sort of adventure mankind undertakes. Maybe the places we go are not marked with "here there be dragons", but by going a place I've never been I make that place more real. How real is a place on a map or a photo on Instagram? By putting my finger down on the map and then going and standing on that spot, I make that place real to me in a way it could never be by any other means. The act of getting to that point makes me real; and that's what the adventure, the risk, the test is all about. The risk is what makes overlanding what it is and that means safety doesn't come first. It also means that because safety doesn't come first, we have to be more aware of our risks at all times; we are much closer to the edge than most people and we have a smaller margin of error. With that must come mindfulness of the edge and how close we are to it, when we lose that focus, when we rush, that is when we find ourselves on the wrong side of the edge and all that risk catches up to us.

There is a reason I have that quote in my signature, to remind me of both the risks and the rewards of adventuring.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I look at many things through risk/reward lenses. In order to truly live you must take risks. Trying to live a life without risks would be like living in a prison. Accept the fact that there will be risks, and then do your best to minimize them and choose them wisely. Don't take a risk for which there is not a worthy reward to be gained.

 

[Paladin2020]

I'm sad, I could not get the article to load.

 

[Herms]

I know this might not be popular, but I want to address the "safety first" mentality.

Overlanding is about being safe-ish. Let's be honest, if any of us put safety first, we would never be more than five minutes from the local ER. What we do is risky, but with risk comes reward; we can mitigate that risk with skill, thought, and the right gear - but we still accept that risk. We go out into places where vehicles can be damaged, we can be injured, and bad things can happen a very long way from help. There must be a reason for us to take on this risk, and that reason might be different for different people. Why do people climb mountains, jump out of planes, or sail out of sight of the land? Because it is there, for the thrill, to see what might be over the horizon. All of these apply to any sort of adventure mankind undertakes. Maybe the places we go are not marked with "here there be dragons", but by going a place I've never been I make that place more real. How real is a place on a map or a photo on Instagram? By putting my finger down on the map and then going and standing on that spot, I make that place real to me in a way it could never be by any other means. The act of getting to that point makes me real; and that's what the adventure, the risk, the test is all about. The risk is what makes overlanding what it is and that means safety doesn't come first. It also means that because safety doesn't come first, we have to be more aware of our risks at all times; we are much closer to the edge than most people and we have a smaller margin of error. With that must come mindfulness of the edge and how close we are to it, when we lose that focus, when we rush, that is when we find ourselves on the wrong side of the edge and all that risk catches up to us.

There is a reason I have that quote in my signature, to remind me of both the risks and the rewards of adventuring.

What a great post and outlook on overlanding.
I do some ocean sailing as well, half the reward is knowing there is some sort of danger involved and overcoming it. That is how we grow.
We apply ourselves to the given task as best we can within reason. It's no fun if you don't make it back.

 

[Gryf]

Great article and great thoughts.

Before judging this guy too harshly remember that our risk tolerance climbs higher with every risky situation. How many times have you looked at the chain of events with a clear head the next day and wonder how you even got in that situation?

Take this accident. If each risk were assessed 1 point per incident the final maneuver he tried was a risk level 4 decision. If he were to go back to his garage and make a decision on how to proceed he'd have stayed home. Problem was he successfully navigated risk levels 1-3 without a problem. To him he was just assessing the risk based on his prior success and that wasn't a true measure of the difficulty of the maneuver.

When approaching a decision you need to set your risk tolerance back to zero. Ask yourself "How would I judge myself if I read this on the Overland Bound website?"

 

[Fozzy325]

I wonder if or how they recovered the vehicle. In Europe he would be charged for pollution and they would have to take away loads of earth due to the liquids which would have leaked out.
Well he was lucky. And I hope people learn from it

 

[Paladin2020]

Questions: 1, How would the insurance react to this ? and 2. Damage claim by a/the land owner? And having worked for the National Park Service, If this had happened on NPS Land he would get a hefty bill. Things to consider when you leave the pavement.

 

[12poundtest]

Just read through this thread for the first time and came away with renewed interest in safety, gear preparation, and training. Thank you all for the thoughtful comments and analysis.

 

[Desert Runner]

@Winterpeg pointed out, Oh.... and 35's with a 6" lift and snorkel but no recovery strap? Recovery gear is your FIRST mod.... or should be.
An FJ with a 6" lift can be extremely problematic if not done correctly with the right components. The off road characteristics due to the change in geometry alone can diminish the FJ's off road capability. I would recommend a lot of research before that kind of mod on an IFS suspension. The FJ does not have the DROOP for it....... Big ? no self recovery equipment on two vehicles!!!!!
This is an awesome learning tool and discussion !!!!!

For the majority of us that are not 'hard core' rock crawlers, a 2" or 2.5 inch lift should be all you need for bigger than OEM tires. If your upping your tire size significantly, my opinion is a well designed lift of no more than 4 inch's, that will accomplish your tire goals. A 6 inch lift should be used for the mud bogs and such only. Side hills will really show how much that 30 degree slope is. A military HUMMER (not up-armored) can do 45 degree slopes all day. If you have a tilt meter to verify, anything in the 37-40 degree angle range is downright scary. I did 41 degrees ONCE in a stock non lifted F-150, with no cap on it. It was only for a few seconds, and i was convinced i was going over any moment!

EDIT:
Those that load their roofs/racks should take notice of that fact, even with a stock height rig. Put a RTT, and a couple of cases up top, and your tilt percentage goes up quickly. Think teeter totter and the fulcrum point. The leverage point climbs quickly.

 

[BullNV]

250' drop, +/-7 rollovers, no seatbelt, chance witnesses with medical training... lucky is an understatement.

I came away from reading this article with mixed feelings. I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, so please keep that in mind as I'm only attempting to explore the root cause and contributing factors.

I think articles like this are good reminders for some, and a discouragement to others. One of the final statements was "A good piece of advice he’ll follow while off-roading alone in the future: Turn around once the road gets to a point when you need to switch gears into 4-low." I think it's worth noting that most of us are just getting started when the transfer case is shifted into low range, so if you're new to overlanding don't take this is an absolute indicator you need to turn around.

Without being a witness or knowing the individual involved it's hard to say what the detailed reasons were for the accident, but let's take it at face value and throw in just a few assumptions for conversation sake.

1) "James Scully was heading up to the Castle Peak and Conundrum Peak trailhead outside of Aspen and said he wanted to get to as high a campground as possible before starting his hike early the next morning. His quest to save his legs from several hundred feet of hiking nearly cost him his life."

Minor point here, but if you're already going to go on a hike up a mountain... what's a few hundred feet extra? It's like driving around the gym parking lot for 30 minutes waiting to get a parking spot closer to the door... only to go inside and run on a treadmill for 5 miles.

2) "Scully was on Forest Road 102 and passed two Denver men, both 19-year-old students at the University of Colorado, in a Jeep Wrangler before quickly approaching a tricky switchback on the four-wheel drive road."

It says he passed another vehicle while "quickly" approaching a switchback. If you've been on many mountain side trails, you know there's not many places to pass, much less "quickly". I'm going to assume he was in a hurry and maybe had a touch of ego encouraging him to get ahead of the witnesses.

3) "The driver of the Jeep, Parker Tinsley, got out to talk to Scully about how to maneuver through the switchback, which was a thin spot with a big snowfield, said the Jeep’s passenger Ben Crabb."

Points to the driver for stopping to inspect the obstacle here. This might have been an indicator that one should turn around, but it's possible the presence of other individuals encouraged the driver to take on a challenge slightly beyond his comfort level.

4) “He eventually got his (FJ Cruiser) up it,” Crabb said. “We started placing rocks on the snow for traction and then we got up that part.”

I'm assuming from the comment that the FJ driver didn't prep the trail, but the Jeep drivers recognized the necessity before proceeding. This might have been a spot to use traction mats for extra assurance if someone had a set.

5) "But that turn was just the beginning. Not much farther up the road, Tinsley and Crabb watched Scully attempt to cross another narrow section of road covered in snow, but this time there was a “harrowing exposure on the left,” Crabb said. Crabb and Tinsley watched as Scully tried to drive through the snow. As soon as I saw it, I thought it was really sketchy, Crabb said."
"Scully said he didn’t think much about the snowbank, because while the dry part of the road was narrow, he figured he would just drive through the snow without incident. His FJ Cruiser was modified for off-roading with a 6-inch lift, 35-inch tires and a snorkel for driving through water, he said."

Again, without being there it's hard to determine the "sketchiness" of the obstacle but if it was apparent to the guys in the Jeep, then it probably would have warranted a closer look before proceeding.

6) Tinsley and Crabb were parked about 40 feet behind as they watched Scully try to throttle over the snow.

Key point here; the FJ driver was attempting to throttle over the snow. When you have a dangerous drop-off near an obstacle on a trail, "throttling" over it greatly increases the chance that once you get "bite" on a surface, you could very well be headed in the wrong direction as the vehicle pivots in the direction of traction. If your foot has the pedal on the floor... your floor may quickly become your ceiling.

Good points! Difficult to delve into what someone else may have been thinks, but well done I think.

 

[Desert Runner]

Great article and great thoughts.

Before judging this guy too harshly remember that our risk tolerance climbs higher with every risky situation. How many times have you looked at the chain of events with a clear head the next day and wonder how you even got in that situation?

Take this accident. If each risk were assessed 1 point per incident the final maneuver he tried was a risk level 4 decision. If he were to go back to his garage and make a decision on how to proceed he'd have stayed home. Problem was he successfully navigated risk levels 1-3 without a problem. To him he was just assessing the risk based on his prior success and that wasn't a true measure of the difficulty of the maneuver.

When approaching a decision you need to set your risk tolerance back to zero. Ask yourself "How would I judge myself if I read this on the Overland Bound website?"

Points to ponder, and well put, as success definitely emboldened his decision to push on. Was he in a rush? I wasn't there, but if someone was stopped, and was concerned about the conditions, I would hope I would LISTEN and Evaluate. As another posted..mmnorthdirections... Oh.... and 35's with a 6" lift and snorkel but no recovery strap? Recovery gear is your FIRST mod.... or should be.
Where oh where was his rudimentary recovery gear. Who puts looks over ability (tongue in cheek), especially in such challenging conditions. Reading the postings here, i'm convinced he was an accident waiting to happen.

EDIT:
Heard from a Hwy patrol officer that after 1 complete vehicle roll-over, the % for death increases dramatically. 7, and no seat-belt!, this guy was incredibly lucky to live, let alone, walk away relatively speaking.

 

[Jeepgirl69]

I came across this article and my first thought was to get out to all the community to share this LUCKY mans story. Choices are made at times that are not good and things unforeseen can happen, take a step back and reflect (WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE) This man heard some advice and was so focused lost site of safety first! There are so many learning points in this article I could write for pages. PLEASE READ and LEARN from a very LUCKY MAN......... BLESS YOU ALL and BE SAFE!!!!!!
Man rolls truck 250 feet down mountain outside of Aspen, walks away

Great article! Thanks for sharing

 

[IceIceBaby42]

Good post, thanks for sharing.

#1 rule of crossing obstacles, is to walk them first. Don't assume that the current obstacle is going to react the same as the last.

Unfortunately people don’t always follow this rule. They are afraid of how they will “look” by being cautious.