Theory vs reality

[MOAK]

Ive seen many folks (not just here) telling people what they need to do to their rig to make it trail ready yet those same folks tell the person asking that they always drive around the mud bypass the rocks etc or that they dont really go do heavy offroading they just overland. Well sometimes you cant drive around something or back up.

I liken this to the couch commandos in the firearm world they like the idea of guns they just dont have the money, time or skill to go shoot but for some reason they tout themselves as firearm experts but the reality is they have very little experience with a weapon yet they have read enough stuff on the internet to think they are experts.

You really arent going to know what is needed or whats gonna break or where your gonna get stuck unless your out there really getting into it.

Another example is when someone asks what jack they should use, without knowing anything about the rig or situation the first answer is always a hi lift farm jack. Sure of youve got all the fancy metal bumpers and rock sliders with hi lift mounting points then thats a good fit but if you have plastic bumpers and side steps or bare body then a hi lift isnt for you you will hurt your rig and yourself and likely not lift anything. Same with winches i love the idea of an electric winch but with plastic bumper there is no where to mount it without spending $$$ on a metal winch bumper. Hand winches/comealongs work fine just be prepared for some sweat equity.

The moral of the rant is be careful who your taking information from they may be well versed in offroad gear that they have read about and or bought but they will have never used it. I mean if your afraid of the mud and avoid it how do you know what i need to not get stuck? Also their info may be based on experience with one type of vehicle ie jeep when your driving a pickup, the dynamics are way different between the two.

Im not picking on any certain person just realise that atleast half of the info your going to get on the internet will be coming from folks with very little experience who are repeating what theyve read somewhere.

You’ve mentioned many of my pet peeves, especially here in the states. A lot of vehicle build ups are nothing much more than “keeping up with the Jones’s”.. High lift jacks mounted on the hoods of 40,000 dollar vehicles has always stuck me as humorous irony. Peace out

 

[MidOH]

Why is the highlift always the accessory that gets picked on? Lolz. It's still a decent winch.

 

[MOAK]

Why is the highlift always the accessory that gets picked on? Lolz. It's still a decent winch.

I have used mine often to get out of a few situations, I find a great deal of ironic humor in where some choose to mount them

 

[MidOH]

Oh, yeah. I'm with you there.

They don't work so well once the pins get rusty. Mine is strapped down securely under my rear seat.

 

[David C Gibbs]

Welcome - from wet, cold, Whistler. The B.C. Overland Rally has a descent turn-out, despite the weather. Some very cool vehicles here. ARB was showing their new lift. WARN was showing their new winch bumper and Larger Fairlead. An-other Box Manufacturer. I'll upload photos once we get home and I can re-size them. David Gibbs, from Boise, ID

 

[Lindenwood]

Why is the highlift always the accessory that gets picked on? Lolz. It's still a decent winch.

A good chunk of this thread contains perfect examples of why the first person to rant about something isn't necessarily the most right.

Specific to the HiLift, most folks who make negative statements about them don't really know all the ways to use them. They might have had a bad experience offhandedly wedging it under a bumper for a lift, or seen someone hit by a poorly-controlled handle.

However, with the right gear and enough familiarity, the hi-lift can be both an effective puller and an effective lifter, regardless of vehicle type. In fact, despite having hundreds of pounds of homemade poser armor around and under my previous rig, I still always lifted from a wheel. I do the same with my current vehicle with its plastic bumpers. In fact, having had 2 vehicles swing off jacks by lifting from a bumper, one vehicle almost slip off a slider, and seen a door damaged, I'll always lift from a wheel, regardless of the vehicle.



More generally, be careful assigning what may be arbitrary weight to whatever characteristics seem appealing.

For example, the notion that you shouldn't take offroad advice from somebody with a clean engine bay is beyond silly. That joe schmoe could have made 100 poor choices leading up to his dirty engine bay before you started chatting in that Walmart parking lot.

Similarly, I recently had a seasoned park ranger tell me that one should spend as little time in 4WD as possible when on the trails. I didn't argue with him, but his assertion carried little merit; lockers, low-range, and 4WD have the almost universal positive benefits of reduced strain on the driver, the vehicle, and especially the trails. I think he was personally associating those people who he characterizes as "liking" to be in 4WD with the goonies out spinning mud holes into his trails. As we know, they are not always the same folks. Unfortunately, the same advice given to the average guy in a 4WD pickup just trying to get to the lake for some fishing is going to end up being actually harder on those trails, let alone the truck and driver.


Ultimately, take everything with a grain of salt, and vet information both for truth ("this is a good winch"), and applicability ("I actually need a winch") before you act on it.

 

[grubworm]

with the goonies out spinning mud holes

nothing wrong with that...!

 

[Dilldog]

Ive seen many folks (not just here) telling people what they need to do to their rig to make it trail ready yet those same folks tell the person asking that they always drive around the mud bypass the rocks etc or that they dont really go do heavy offroading they just overland. Well sometimes you cant drive around something or back up.

I liken this to the couch commandos in the firearm world they like the idea of guns they just dont have the money, time or skill to go shoot but for some reason they tout themselves as firearm experts but the reality is they have very little experience with a weapon yet they have read enough stuff on the internet to think they are experts.

You really arent going to know what is needed or whats gonna break or where your gonna get stuck unless your out there really getting into it.

Another example is when someone asks what jack they should use, without knowing anything about the rig or situation the first answer is always a hi lift farm jack. Sure of youve got all the fancy metal bumpers and rock sliders with hi lift mounting points then thats a good fit but if you have plastic bumpers and side steps or bare body then a hi lift isnt for you you will hurt your rig and yourself and likely not lift anything. Same with winches i love the idea of an electric winch but with plastic bumper there is no where to mount it without spending $$$ on a metal winch bumper. Hand winches/comealongs work fine just be prepared for some sweat equity.

The moral of the rant is be careful who your taking information from they may be well versed in offroad gear that they have read about and or bought but they will have never used it. I mean if your afraid of the mud and avoid it how do you know what i need to not get stuck? Also their info may be based on experience with one type of vehicle ie jeep when your driving a pickup, the dynamics are way different between the two.

Im not picking on any certain person just realise that atleast half of the info your going to get on the internet will be coming from folks with very little experience who are repeating what theyve read somewhere.

Theres a psychology term for what your talking about, Dunning Kruger, we all do it from time to time. But yes we all need to be aware that this happens, and be conscious ourselves to try not to fall into this trap.

 

[Lindenwood]

Theres a psychology term for what your talking about, Dunning Kruger, we all do it from time to time. But yes we all need to be aware that this happens, and be conscious ourselves to try not to fall into this trap.

Excellent reference!

My favorite part about the Dunning-Kruger effect is that it goes both ways :) .

 

[Billiebob]

Why is the highlift always the accessory that gets picked on? Lolz. It's still a decent winch.

It gets picked on because it causes injuries. Many provincial & state departments have banned them from their trucks because of workers comp claims. Only the uneducated think they are a good tool.

 

[Lindenwood]

Only the uneducated think they are a good tool.

Good God...


Like guns, trucks, and kitchen knives, any piece of equipment can cause injury if not used properly and responsibly.

 

[Billiebob]

more like..

 

[Dilldog]

It gets picked on because it causes injuries. Many provincial & state departments have banned them from their trucks because of workers comp claims. Only the ignorant think they are a good tool.

I will readily admit that if one is not careful then the threat of injury is super high with the Hi Lift. But I have yet to come across a single piece of gear that can be used for winching, lifting and clamping. Besides I dont want to crawl around on the ground to try to locate a bottle jack or other "off the floor" type jack to stack rocks or branches under my wheels, not to mention when a rig is in an unsteady position its flat out unsafe to try to jack from under it, a Hi Lift at least gives you a chance at getting out of the way should the rig shift, or the jack move. From what I have seen 90% of Hi Lift accidents stem from poor maintenance (you know all those sliding pins that need to be lubed and never are, or those springs and roll pins that wear and should be replaced but never are). Also working in an extremely dangerous at times trade I will tell you, sometimes the safest sounding thing puts you at greater risk. Sometimes the best thing to do is recognize the risk, do what you can to mitigate it and just get the job done. I think of Hi Lifts in this way.
If you are unwilling to accept the risks, I respect that. But I dont beleive there are grounds for calling others uneducated for their choices in this conversation.

 

[grubworm]

the hi lift can even split firewood...how cool is that? i keep a hi lift in the truck AND one in the house

 

[Lindenwood]

more like..

View attachment 106919

Oh come on.

Again, what you are saying basically amounts to "owning a gun, knife, or truck is tantamount to playing Russian Roulette," because all of these can and have directly resulted in lots and lots of accidental injuries and deaths.

Would you be able to explain which specific risks of using a hi-lift simply cannot be mitigated? That is, the risk of spinning the cylinder and squeezing the trigger statistically cannot be mitigated. Conversely, pretty much ever failure mode of a hi-lift (namely, slipping off poorly-selected jacking points, or getting hit by a poorly-controlled handle) can absolutely be identified and mitigated.

 

[Billiebob]

linden, lighten up.
Fact, most government vehicles no longer carry highlift jacks. Fact the reason is due to injury and compensation claims. Everyone I know who has used a farmer jack eventually got hit hard or witnessed it.

I got the Russian Roulette thing from a guy who teaches safety courses.

Fact, guys who have never been hit take huge offence when told highlift jacks are not safe. This thread proves that. Fact, guys who have been hit tend to sit quiet on the side cuz they know eventually everyone witnesses the big hit. Fact, I'm not one of those guys. For anyone considering buying a highlift jack..... I'll give them the facts, not some ego spin.

 

[Billiebob]

when a rig is in an unsteady position its flat out unsafe to try to jack from under it, a Hi Lift at least gives you a chance at getting out of the way should the rig shift, or the jack move

Heres an old photo from another forum of a guy who thought that.... until he looked at this photo.
You are a legend if you can move faster than a sliding highlift jack.

 

[Lindenwood]

linden, lighten up.
Fact, most government vehicles no longer carry highlift jacks. Fact the reason is due to injury and compensation claims. Everyone I know who has used a farmer jack eventually got hit hard or witnessed it.

I got the Russian Roulette thing from a guy who teaches safety courses.

Fact, guys who have never been hit take huge offence when told highlift jacks are not safe. This thread proves that. Fact, guys who have been hit tend to sit quiet on the side cuz they know eventually everyone witnesses the big hit. Fact, I'm not one of those guys. For anyone considering buying a highlift jack..... I'll give them the facts, not some ego spin.

Your "facts" are all relative to the populations using them, not any innate failures of the tool. Moreover, your "facts" only speak to the legal reactions of some organizations, not the actual use of the tool.

If an entire organization bans its security guards from carrying firearms because one guy shot himself in the foot, that is the fault of the guard, not the firearm. Banning the firearm is just the legally-simple way of guaranteeing company-provided firearms can't injure employees. If an entire organization bans hi-lifts because one or two guys break their jaws (which is likely the case), that only means the guys screwed up and broke their jaws, but the company takes the legally-simple route which is simply banning the tool.

And, I would also take offense to you asserting it is impossible to mitigate the risks of gun ownership and thus that nobody should own them.

Im I being trolled?

 

[Billiebob]

no, I hope I'm being trolled... I hope most overlanders are smart.

 

[MMc]

Highlift Jacks are a tool. Just a tool. If you know how to use said tool they are great. If you have one on your rig with a shovel that has never been used it might be for a look? I don't use them. I have friends that love them. My tools for lifting my truck are a floor rack and tube jacks. They are just a jack/winch/whatever you want. No reason to get all twisted about it.