Suspension options

[smritte]

That’s exactly the reason I use a 5 ton pintle hook

I love the way these limit the side twist. I cant (read wont) use them because, on the trail I move the weight in the trailer so I have zero tongue weight. Way too noisy. I tried all the rubber/urethane insulators but gave up after a couple of years. I went back to a ball mount until I managed to twist it off the ball. I didn't pay attention to the massive wear from all the twisting I did. That's when I started making multi axis hitch's. They still have faults but, until someone comes up with a better design, that's all I got.

 

[MOAK]

I love the way these limit the side twist. I cant (read wont) use them because, on the trail I move the weight in the trailer so I have zero tongue weight. Way too noisy. I tried all the rubber/urethane insulators but gave up after a couple of years. I went back to a ball mount until I managed to twist it off the ball. I didn't pay attention to the massive wear from all the twisting I did. That's when I started making multi axis hitch's. They still have faults but, until someone comes up with a better design, that's all I got.

Ya, with zero tongue weight they would rattle a lot. I’ve about 110bs of tongue weight. For the hitch to rattle I’m in some pretty serious terrain. Why zero ?

 

[smritte]

Less push/pull over difficult terrain. I let the trailer suspension deal with the trailer and the truck suspension deal with my truck. A heavy tongue is more leverage up/down, side/side the rear of your vehicle has to deal with. If its bad enough it will also move the front.
I discovered this when I did AAT work. At times my M-100 would literally be full of rock (We had to harden some of the water crossings). Dragging this thing down a black diamond trail, I experimented with tongue weight. Now years later, I can feel the difference in rear suspension movement due to more or less tongue weight.

I have also discovered, most of the "rules" around trailer builds are based on outdated tech. This is why mine tend to be diffrent than most.

 

[Timbren-Industries]

Mechanical/ride benefits of indepdent, axle-less suspension aside, that picture is a great example of axle-less suspension clearance and a great way to visualize the impact of an axle beam greatly reducing ground clearance. Just draw a straight line between the hubs in that picture, that's how much clearance would be lost. We can try and pick the best line for our combination and hope the trailer follows the same track, or close enough, but if you're going over a large rock with a solid beam axle and the trailer happens to slide off the side or the rock otherwise ends up going under the trailer that axle beam can make a great anchor and either stop you in your tracks or damage the axle/suspension on the trailer.

I also don't understand the arguments for leaf-sprung suspension over independent, whether it's axle-less or Dexter torsion (quality/lifespan of the components aside). Not only is the ride quality for the trailer better and won't beat your equipment up, the towing experience is also improved because the trailer isn't bouncing around. Sure, you can try and fine tune the leafs to provide the capacity you need and have a decent ride but it's never going to match independent suspension and anyone that thinks otherwise is making assumptions and not talking from experience.

On the flip side, I totally get wanting to build from something you already have laying around so I'm not suggesting the OP spend the coin on something like Timbren axle-less suspension, especially if they're just wanting to build a little off-road utility trailer. I'm just commenting on the general solid axle vs independent suspension discussion as I've had experience with all 3; Traditional leafs, Dexter Torflex, and Timbren axle-less. The Timbren are the best of the 3 by far and I'm sure the coil+shock trailing arm suspensions are even better, especially if you use airbags instead of coils so you can do side-to-side leveling, but that was overkill for my use. The Timbren setup has worked well so far.

Thanks for the kind words!

 

[Red_Leaf_Overland]

So i got playing around with some 3d modeling last night and I am thinking that I may keep the solid axle but still try a coil suspension for fun. I can build a trailing arm style setup and mock it up with my 2000lb axle that I already have and swap out to a heavier axle down the road once I get everything set up the way I like it.
Here is a rough idea of what I have rolling around in my head.
I've never used and CAD or design programs before so the drawings are a little rough.

 

[smritte]

I kicked around a trailing arm when I built mine. If I did another I would most likely go with it. For the springs I would either go with a poly airbag inside the coil or just a standard airbag. If you buy one of the modern standard airbags, they have an internal bump stop. I added airbags to my leaf's.
You will also want to either triangulate the arms or run a panhard rod. If your good at fabricating a Watts link would really rock instead of a panhard.

If there's any scale to your drawing, I would center the axle under the body. Your modern axles come with positive toe and camper. This keeps it tracking straight on the highway and the centered axle gives you better maneuverability off road.

 

[Red_Leaf_Overland]

I kicked around a trailing arm when I built mine. If I did another I would most likely go with it. For the springs I would either go with a poly airbag inside the coil or just a standard airbag. If you buy one of the modern standard airbags, they have an internal bump stop. I added airbags to my leaf's.
You will also want to either triangulate the arms or run a panhard rod. If your good at fabricating a Watts link would really rock instead of a panhard.

If there's any scale to your drawing, I would center the axle under the body. Your modern axles come with positive toe and camper. This keeps it tracking straight on the highway and the centered axle gives you better maneuverability off road.

good points. I'll look into airbags and see if I can find something that will work but the springs are a fairly small diameter so an airbag in the spring may not be an option. The trailer is based off of a 4x6 platform and I have the rear axle placed 2' in from the rear. which almost matches the jeeps wheelbase perfectly which was my though when designing.... I've never built a trailer from scratch before, though I've built many other things as I am a welder by trade. any advise is welcome! lol

 

[MOAK]

Mine? The axle is centered on the 4x6 platform. My Son-in-law’s, he had one custom built, the axle is set back, even with his water tanks in the rear his tongue weight is way too heavy 250 lbs +/- and impossible to change it other than having the axled removed and centered. Good luck

 

[Mountaintrails71]

Independent suspension is great. The failure is usually the frame it is mounted too. There is even YouTube videos of tow companies having to recover overlanders trailers with independent suspension failures on factory built trailers. i have been around a lot of trailers and the simplicity and solid structure of a solid axle is my choice. What makes a trailer bouncy is the spring rate being installed. If you buy a trailer rated for 3500 pounds it will have 3500 lb rated springs and axle. If you only hall 1000 lbs in that trailer. It is going to bounce very bad. That’s why my trailer I built has 3500 lb axle but each spring is 1250 for a total load capacity of 2500. my trailer loaded is at 1500.

 

[Wertsbaugh]

Personally I don’t think independent suspension is worth the effort. It doesn’t really give you added clearance, except a small gap in the middle. Either way it’s probably more than your rig. A solid axle and leaf springs are simple, more easily interchangeable and stronger.

Our first DIY off road trailer was on a solid axel, and it broke on a trail in Big Bend. We were towing it behind our jeep, not the 4runner. Lots of patience and ratchet straps, we were able to drag it out of the back country and fix it properly. That experience alone made us opt for independent suspension on the current trailer we are building.
It maybe overkill, but hopefully we won't spend 3 days of our trip doing trailer repairs on our next trip!
I think it depends on what trails you plan on running and what rig you're pulling it with.

 

[Red_Leaf_Overland]

Our first DIY off road trailer was on a solid axel, and it broke on a trail in Big Bend. We were towing it behind our jeep, not the 4runner. Lots of patience and ratchet straps, we were able to drag it out of the back country and fix it properly. That experience alone made us opt for independent suspension on the current trailer we are building.
It maybe overkill, but hopefully we won't spend 3 days of our trip doing trailer repairs on our next trip!
I think it depends on what trails you plan on running and what rig you're pulling it with.

What exactly was the break and what was the fix? I have a Ling list of random trail fixes under my belt a d love hearing others. Even if it's just zip ties lol. An independent suspension would be harder to patch together...

 

[m_lars]

Personally I don’t think independent suspension is worth the effort. It doesn’t really give you added clearance, except a small gap in the middle. Either way it’s probably more than your rig. A solid axle and leaf springs are simple, more easily interchangeable and stronger.

Our first DIY off road trailer was on a solid axel, and it broke on a trail in Big Bend. We were towing it behind our jeep, not the 4runner. Lots of patience and ratchet straps, we were able to drag it out of the back country and fix it properly. That experience alone made us opt for independent suspension on the current trailer we are building.
It maybe overkill, but hopefully we won't spend 3 days of our trip doing trailer repairs on our next trip!
I think it depends on what trails you plan on running and what rig you're pulling it with.

If you under-size your axle, it doesn’t matter if it’s solid or independent, it’ll break. Unless you’re going with a higher weight rating, it’s hard to argue independent is stronger, there’s a lot less going on with a solid axle.

 

[MOAK]

What exactly was the break and what was the fix? I have a Ling list of random trail fixes under my belt a d love hearing others. Even if it's just zip ties lol. An independent suspension would be harder to patch together...

I’m curious about this too. I ran an undersized axle for about a year and two bearing blow outs, then stepped up to a 3500 lb axle. I can’t imagine the forces needed to actually break an axle.

 

[smritte]

I’m curious about this too. I ran an undersized axle for about a year and two bearing blow outs, then stepped up to a 3500 lb axle. I can’t imagine the forces needed to actually break an axle.

Looking at some of the home made trailers, I'm amazed there aren't more failures. Then again, maybe we just don't hear of them.

I think here were assuming its a tube axle and not a beam. Old school iron beam axles will fatigue over time which will bend them and be prone to cracking.
Anyone familiar with the old drop axle alignment procedures, knew about how you would bend the axle back into shape. Some people would weld the cracks even though your not suppose to.
If it broke at the spindle, it couldn't be fixed with ratchet straps.

Assuming its an undersized, very old beam style, having it break somewhere along the beam, could be fixed by strapping something along its axis.
Something else I would see with home made trailers is not only reusing a very old axles but reusing old rusted springs.
Judging by the post, I would bet it was a broken spring. I have fixed broken springs with ratchet straps, chains and a block of wood between the axle and frame.

 

[Silver Rover]

Ok so question for both of you. Will a 2000 lb axle ( either welding in stub, torsion, or straight axle) hold up to off road use with "larger" tires? My big concern with all of the parts I have laying around is that they may be too light. Obviously I will still need to look at how I am putting my suspension together lol.

I don’t think, in a DIY situation, you can make the independent suspension hold up or perform as well. Will 2k hold up? Depends on how big and how heavy.

Look at those mega dollar trailers and the size of the swing arms they’ve got. They’ve got more material and weight in those systems than a straight axle, and for what? Straight axle will get you down the road with less weight and complexity.

If you’re paying $50k for a tent trailer (patriot comes to mind), you better get something other than a straight axle. But do you NEED a patriot camper to go out and have a great trip? Nope.

You can use a Timbren swingarm setup. The suspension used on many commercial off road trailers. I built my own square drop trailer, used a Timbren suspension and a "lock & roll off road hitch. The trailer track perfectly and I don't feel it back there at all.

 

[m_lars]

Ok so question for both of you. Will a 2000 lb axle ( either welding in stub, torsion, or straight axle) hold up to off road use with "larger" tires? My big concern with all of the parts I have laying around is that they may be too light. Obviously I will still need to look at how I am putting my suspension together lol.

I don’t think, in a DIY situation, you can make the independent suspension hold up or perform as well. Will 2k hold up? Depends on how big and how heavy.

Look at those mega dollar trailers and the size of the swing arms they’ve got. They’ve got more material and weight in those systems than a straight axle, and for what? Straight axle will get you down the road with less weight and complexity.

If you’re paying $50k for a tent trailer (patriot comes to mind), you better get something other than a straight axle. But do you NEED a patriot camper to go out and have a great trip? Nope.

You can use a Timbren swingarm setup. The suspension used on many commercial off road trailers. I built my own square drop trailer, used a Timbren suspension and a "lock & roll off road hitch. The trailer track perfectly and I don't feel it back there at all.

Ok? I’m not sure what I said you are trying to rebut. There are many ways to build a trailer. If you’ve got the money and the know how, independent suspension is fine. I’ve used the timbren system when I worked at a rental store for a drop deck power scaffold trailer. There’s just a lot more cost, thought and frame strength that needs to go into your build when you use this system, with negligible (if any) gain. There are WAY more areas I’d rather spend that money than on an independent suspension and “articulating” hitch. For 99.9% of use they’re unnecessary and unnecessarily complicated. My trailer tracks perfectly as well, but I built the whole thing for what a 3500lb Timbren setup would cost!

I’m not accusing you of this, but I do find it very amusing how so many people argue you MUST have solid axles on your truck, but independent suspension on your trailer!

 

[Red_Leaf_Overland]

My trailer tracks perfectly as well, but I built the whole thing for what a 3500lb Timbren setup would cost

I am trying to keep the budget low. basically my trailer design I sketched up is under 1000lb dry weight, and I don't carry a whole lot. I am thinking that I will likely run a 2000LB suspension and axle for now. If that works, it will stay. I have a pile of part laying around, including 3500lb idler hubs that I can make an axle with if need be. the issue I run into is that my rigs are small and not rated to tow a whole lot of weight.
I will try out the trailer with the 2000lb setups that I have and if I feel that there are issues I will switch to a 3500lb axle of some sort, but eh suspension can remail 2000lb because I am guestimating that my fully loaded trailer will but well under that... but we will see lol.

 

[bgenlvtex]

*snip*

I’m not accusing you of this, but I do find it very amusing how so many people argue you MUST have solid axles on your truck, but independent suspension on your trailer!

There is not an IFS truck that without thousands of dollars of modification, has the articulation of solid axle on a similar vehicle.
Independent suspension on a trailer (true independent suspension) has radically more articulation than a solid axle leaf or torsion axle.

The goal is to keep as many powered wheels in firm contact with the ground, delivering power, articulation is the pathway to that..

Reduced articulation in the trailer and hitch, serve to reduce traction in the tow vehicle and lift the rear suspension reducing power to the ground.

What you find "amusing" is two entirely different functions of two entirely different "vehicles"

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "run what you brung" or "build what you can afford and go use it".

It is however incorrect to pretend that a superior suspension set up, isn't superior simply because you don't recognize it. You may not need it, you may not want it, but it is still superior and the more challenging the terrain, the clearer that becomes.

For the record I'm not arguing that you "must" have anything at all.

 

[m_lars]

*snip*

I’m not accusing you of this, but I do find it very amusing how so many people argue you MUST have solid axles on your truck, but independent suspension on your trailer!

There is not an IFS truck that without thousands of dollars of modification, has the articulation of solid axle on a similar vehicle.
Independent suspension on a trailer (true independent suspension, not Timbren) has radically more articulation than a solid axle leaf or torsion axle.

The goal is to keep as many powered wheels in firm contact with the ground, delivering power, articulation is the pathway to that..

Reduced articulation in the trailer and hitch, serve to reduce traction in the tow vehicle and lift the rear suspension reducing power to the ground.

What you find "amusing" is two entirely different functions of two entirely different "vehicles"

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "run what you brung" or "build what you can afford and go use it".

It is however incorrect to pretend that a superior suspension set up, isn't superior simply because you don't recognize it. You may not need it, you may not want it, but it is still superior and the more challenging the terrain, the clearer that becomes.

For the record I'm not arguing that you "must" have anything at all.

Thank you for the 4x4 lesson. There is no cross axle articulation on a single axle trailer.

 

[bgenlvtex]

So i got playing around with some 3d modeling last night and I am thinking that I may keep the solid axle but still try a coil suspension for fun. I can build a trailing arm style setup and mock it up with my 2000lb axle that I already have and swap out to a heavier axle down the road once I get everything set up the way I like it.
Here is a rough idea of what I have rolling around in my head.
I've never used and CAD or design programs before so the drawings are a little rough.
View attachment 246332View attachment 246333View attachment 246334View attachment 246335

Go to an offroad shop that lifts Jeeps, they will have a pile of control arms and will probably give them to you. Build/buy mounts and you're most of the way there