Suspension options

[m_lars]

No, if independent suspension and an articulating hitch are “non-negotiable” it clearly is. I’m no less safe, comfortable or mobile than you, that’s foolish.

I do agree that if you are spending tens of thousands of dollars on a commercially built trailer you should get those things. However, if they are not PROPERLY done, you will be worse off. I’ve seen it first hand.

You seem to want to just argue,so I'll just let you argue with yourself.

Have a nice day.

Thank you for posting that pic of your rig, it was very revealing.

It’s not that I want to argue, though I do love a good debate. I want to be a counter point to half true statements. This industry is filled with sensationalism and this platform has a lot of new people. When you say things like “non-negotiable”, it implies to someone else that they may not be able to go out without certain things. It puts an emphasis on having proper gear first mentality that keeps people from exploring until the rig is ready. People need to just go out on their own and find out what gear they actually need. A rig isn’t perfect when you add that one last thing, it’s done when you remove the last unnecessary item.

It was very clear after seeing your picture your setup would not work for me. That behemoth of a trailer would not fit down my trails!

 

[m_lars]

Got it. Gear is more important than the trip.

awh...its ok. youre important too!


View attachment 243047

Wow, dick comment of the day.

Who’s the attention whore? Someone who’s been in the conversation the whole tube, or someone who jumps in at the end with an inflammatory statement?

 

[Red_Leaf_Overland]

@Red_Leaf_Overland - Are you looking to build a trailer that is similar to what your friend has? I have a 4'x6' trailer and it has plenty of room for my needs. It has a 3,500 lb. straight axle and 2,000 lb. springs and it's been good in the places I have gone with it. It would probably be fine if it had a 2,000 lb. axle. What it doesn't have is brakes. I might change out the current axle for another 3,500 lb. axle I have that has the flanges needed for brakes, which I have sitting on a shelf.

I built mine with a plan to use the vehicle spare if needed. Your situation is quite different. I tow with my Jeep XJ and LJ with similar size wheels and tires. If you plan to use Jeep wheels, you'll likely need 2" wheel spacers for the 3,500 lb. axle but not for the 2,000 lb. axle. The larger hub diameter of the heavier axle won't fit through the wheel centre of most Jeep wheels.

View attachment 243039

Was thinking either 4x6 or maybe a bit bigger. I want to keep my gear dry Soni was thinking a large slide out platform in the bottom half and a long open shelf ( possibly also a slide out) above that. All enclosed to stay dry. That way I wouldn't need to build a roof rack for my LJ to carry my gazelle tent lol. Most of my gear is stored in Plano trunks which keep out most of the water but not all...

 

[PCO6]

Was thinking either 4x6 or maybe a bit bigger. I want to keep my gear dry Soni was thinking a large slide out platform in the bottom half and a long open shelf ( possibly also a slide out) above that. All enclosed to stay dry. That way I wouldn't need to build a roof rack for my LJ to carry my gazelle tent lol. Most of my gear is stored in Plano trunks which keep out most of the water but not all...

One of my criteria was to be able to fit an ATV in the bed, obviously with the RTT off and 4'x6' is about right for most models. A bit longer would have been fine. I also use mine as a utility trailer, usually with the RTT on but with it off for larger items. It's great for hauling home used Jeep parts! For these reasons mine is "open air". Some of what I carry needs to be in waterproof cases but for some it it doesn't matter. Two "fairly" waterproof Plano Sportsman's Trunks fit snuggly end to end and are good for a lot of things.

I decided to not have slide outs mainly because I use the trailer for several purposes. My tailgate drops down and makes for a good table to cook on and even use as a table to eat at.

Good luck with your build. A lot of the fun is dialing it in for your purposes ... and using it of course!

 

[DRAX]

There are way too many variables to even offer an educated opinion (not an engineer), but suspension is worthy of overbuilding if any part is.

Mechanical/ride benefits of indepdent, axle-less suspension aside, that picture is a great example of axle-less suspension clearance and a great way to visualize the impact of an axle beam greatly reducing ground clearance. Just draw a straight line between the hubs in that picture, that's how much clearance would be lost. We can try and pick the best line for our combination and hope the trailer follows the same track, or close enough, but if you're going over a large rock with a solid beam axle and the trailer happens to slide off the side or the rock otherwise ends up going under the trailer that axle beam can make a great anchor and either stop you in your tracks or damage the axle/suspension on the trailer.

I also don't understand the arguments for leaf-sprung suspension over independent, whether it's axle-less or Dexter torsion (quality/lifespan of the components aside). Not only is the ride quality for the trailer better and won't beat your equipment up, the towing experience is also improved because the trailer isn't bouncing around. Sure, you can try and fine tune the leafs to provide the capacity you need and have a decent ride but it's never going to match independent suspension and anyone that thinks otherwise is making assumptions and not talking from experience.

On the flip side, I totally get wanting to build from something you already have laying around so I'm not suggesting the OP spend the coin on something like Timbren axle-less suspension, especially if they're just wanting to build a little off-road utility trailer. I'm just commenting on the general solid axle vs independent suspension discussion as I've had experience with all 3; Traditional leafs, Dexter Torflex, and Timbren axle-less. The Timbren are the best of the 3 by far and I'm sure the coil+shock trailing arm suspensions are even better, especially if you use airbags instead of coils so you can do side-to-side leveling, but that was overkill for my use. The Timbren setup has worked well so far.

 

[smritte]

Interesting discussion.
I personally wont do independent. Absolutely no reason for it. Not building a track car (yes I do understand track and desert truck suspension very well). I currently have two leaf spring trailers both I have designed the suspension on. Build wise...several more.
I have run, Dusy, Rubicon and most of the black diamond trails out here with my small trailer. As for ground clearance, I don't hang up on anything my diffs cleared. Having a smaller diameter axle on the trailer actually gives my slightly more clearance.

My leaf's don't bounce my trailer because I set the spring rate correctly. I also run the proper shocks. I have pulled both my trailers over 50mph in the dirt. On one occasion accidentally getting my rig and teardrop airborne at around 40 mph. All it did was hit the bump stops and kept on going. Over the years I have seen more improper independent builds than leaf. I wont go on about the over sprung systems I've seen other than to say, how many progressive torsion or coil trailer suspensions are there, in fact how many different spring rates will these independent companies sell you? I think my teardrop ended up with #800, 50" springs and my M-100 #500 50" springs (I did mix and match the leaf's to get a good progressive set).

The argument is completely pointless though, neither will work if not properly done. Both will work if properly done so it really goes down to preference.

I will agree on the articulating hitch but, if your going hard core you better put a stop on the twist. I have had a couple of occasions where my trailer would have ended up on its side otherwise and no, it wouldn't have put my Jeep on its side otherwise. Both times it just stood there with a tire off the ground.

If this was mentioned I missed it, if your going hard mode you better have the tongue length matching your wheel base. My trailers follow my exact tracks. This way if I clear it, so does my trailer. You also want to be able to shift the tongue weight in the trailer to zero, otherwise the trailer effects the rear suspension.

If the OP isn't going hard mode then most of this discussion is again preference. It gets down to what you have available and how much you going to spend.

This is my small trailer. I downsized the tires from 35-33 when I sold my last Jeep. It now just see's moderate trails.

 

[Red_Leaf_Overland]

Interesting discussion.
I personally wont do independent. Absolutely no reason for it. Not building a track car (yes I do understand track and desert truck suspension very well). I currently have two leaf spring trailers both I have designed the suspension on. Build wise...several more.
I have run, Dusy, Rubicon and most of the black diamond trails out here with my small trailer. As for ground clearance, I don't hang up on anything my diffs cleared. Having a smaller diameter axle on the trailer actually gives my slightly more clearance.

My leaf's don't bounce my trailer because I set the spring rate correctly. I also run the proper shocks. I have pulled both my trailers over 50mph in the dirt. On one occasion accidentally getting my rig and teardrop airborne at around 40 mph. All it did was hit the bump stops and kept on going. Over the years I have seen more improper independent builds than leaf. I wont go on about the over sprung systems I've seen other than to say, how many progressive torsion or coil trailer suspensions are there, in fact how many different spring rates will these independent companies sell you? I think my teardrop ended up with #800, 50" springs and my M-100 #500 50" springs (I did mix and match the leaf's to get a good progressive set).

The argument is completely pointless though, neither will work if not properly done. Both will work if properly done so it really goes down to preference.

I will agree on the articulating hitch but, if your going hard core you better put a stop on the twist. I have had a couple of occasions where my trailer would have ended up on its side otherwise and no, it wouldn't have put my Jeep on its side otherwise. Both times it just stood there with a tire off the ground.

If this was mentioned I missed it, if your going hard mode you better have the tongue length matching your wheel base. My trailers follow my exact tracks. This way if I clear it, so does my trailer. You also want to be able to shift the tongue weight in the trailer to zero, otherwise the trailer effects the rear suspension.

If the OP isn't going hard mode then most of this discussion is again preference. It gets down to what you have available and how much you going to spend.

This is my small trailer. I downsized the tires from 35-33 when I sold my last Jeep. It now just see's moderate trails.
View attachment 243078

it wont go hard but hard enough. maybe I will narrow down my needs. I have taken my LJ all over Ontario ( Canada ) and some of the US. Some spots I've been in the US I wish I had my Jeep lol. I have a few trails that I go/spots I go camping that most people don't go, which means its quiet lol. I have a growing family and need to get the back seat back in m y Jeep and start hailing gear in a trailer instead of inside. when camping with my compass I have been hauling a utilty trailer for a couple years and though it works... its not ideal ... but it works lol.
a few pictures of The LJ for reference... obviously not all of these obstacles will be trailer friendly lol. Also there are pictures from 2 different trails and 1 wont have a trailer on it lol

 

[DRAX]

Perhaps some of the reason this debate/discussion is a bit contradictory is because we're either assuming how large of a trailer they want to build (they haven't said. Maybe a small 4x8, maybe a home-built tear-drop, etc) based on what we own or are simply sharing our experience and suggestions based on ourselves rather than trying to get a better picture of what the OP wants to build in the end, or at least a rough idea of what they want to build.

I'm coming from the perspective of a bit of a larger trailer, as are some others based on the picture(s), some are coming from the really quite small utility trailers that you can basically shove around on the trail by hand if you get into a pickle.

Totally different applications and results. If it's a trailer like @smritte posted a pic of then leafs make sense, the expectations/requirements are less as are the costs. If it's a trailer like mine (~3,300LB teardrop) where it's quite a bit larger and heavier with gear and stuff that you'd rather not be bounced around or vibrated to death then the independent suspensions start to make more sense than solid beam axles (again, my perspective and not trying to argue) considering it's more of a living space than a truck bed.

If we're not talking apples to apples then there's a lot of room for assumptions and opinions to vary wildly.

 

[smritte]

If we're not talking apples to apples then there's a lot of room for assumptions and opinions to vary wildly

Absolutely.

One thing I will add, the Off Road" trailers built with leaf's are normally done completely wrong. The rule for trailers is #3500 axle gets #3500 short springs. You want to see bounce, there you go.
I love these kind of discussions because you see not just diffrent opinions but diffrent opinions based on diffrent experiences.

I have nothing against a nice swing arm suspension if I can pick what spring rate I use. I only have issue with there being too few spring choices on the manufactured independents. If the spring rate happens to match what you have then, there ya go. If not your stuck with whatever they offer.

One of my buddies bought a trailer with the torsion springs. Horribly over sprung, bounced literally off the ground at low speeds. I contacted the manufacture about a lower spring rate and the rep immediately went into "trailer mode", #3500 axle gets #3500 springs. Our only option going forward is pulling the torsions and getting a set made.
Contacting the other one (cant seem to remember their name either), they run a rubber spring. I was looking into running an independent on my teardrop. But again, the spring rate choices are limited so i decided to stay simple.

 

[smritte]

@Red_Leaf_Overland
My M-100 has seen those type of trails without issue. The only problem will be traction with wet tires. The trailer could do it but the Jeep may not.

 

[Billiebob]

Nothing wrong with overbuilding the axle but make the springs match the load.

I run straight 3500# axles with leafs on all my trailers and 2000# springs.
I also only run a 2" ball hitch.
No regrets.

For me there are no advantages to the fancy articulating hitches nor the expensive independent suspensions.
A few of my trailers have over 100K miles on them. Keep it simple really does work.

My Square Drop easily follows my Wrangler wherever it goes.

ps.... if you want a good ride..... the top issue is unsprung weight. The heavier the wheel tire combination the rougher it will ride and the more likely something might break.

And to those with thin skin, the point of the forum is to express your opinion.... if someone expresses an opinion and you feel you need to argue, yer an idiot, find a new forum.

 

[Red_Leaf_Overland]

Nothing wrong with overbuilding the axle but make the springs match the load.

I run straight 3500# axles with leafs on all my trailers and 2000# springs.
I also only run a 2" ball hitch.
No regrets.

For me there are no advantages to the fancy articulating hitches nor the expensive independent suspensions.
A few of my trailers have over 100K miles on them. Keep it simple really does work.

My Square Drop easily follows my Wrangler wherever it goes.

ps.... if you want a good ride..... the top issue is unsprung weight. The heavier the wheel tire combination the rougher it will ride and the more likely something might break.

And to those with thin skin, the point of the forum is to express your opinion.... if someone expresses an opinion and you feel you need to argue, yer an idiot, find a new forum.

I'll keep that in mind about the unsprung weight. I have an issue of overbuilding things and I am trying to break that habit or the trailer will weigh more than the jeep lol.
I doubt I will be towing a trailer anywhere where I would need an articulating hitch, there's usually a better line to take. I think I'm going to have to do some material calculations and designa frame, pick a suspension and kinda go with it so I can figure out the rough dry weight.
I had done a rough guesstimate of about 350 lbs for the frame weight but now I don't remember for sure. Then I need to figure out the weight of my gear and how I am going to build the rest of it lol.
I was thinking with 2000# coils, if I needed to I could move the location of the spring (closer to the pivot point of a trailing arm for lighter, further for heavier) to get a better fine tuned ride once I figured out all of my weights, then weld it all together once I'm happy with the height and weight distribution. But I have never built an offroad trailer before so I came here to lean on everyone's experiences lol.

 

[MOAK]

Absolutely.

One thing I will add, the Off Road" trailers built with leaf's are normally done completely wrong. The rule for trailers is #3500 axle gets #3500 short springs. You want to see bounce, there you go.
I love these kind of discussions because you see not just diffrent opinions but diffrent opinions based on diffrent experiences.

I have nothing against a nice swing arm suspension if I can pick what spring rate I use. I only have issue with there being too few spring choices on the manufactured independents. If the spring rate happens to match what you have then, there ya go. If not your stuck with whatever they offer.

One of my buddies bought a trailer with the torsion springs. Horribly over sprung, bounced literally off the ground at low speeds. I contacted the manufacture about a lower spring rate and the rep immediately went into "trailer mode", #3500 axle gets #3500 springs. Our only option going forward is pulling the torsions and getting a set made.
Contacting the other one (cant seem to remember their name either), they run a rubber spring. I was looking into running an independent on my teardrop. But again, the spring rate choices are limited so i decided to stay simple.

Curious, the spring that snapped on me were a pair of 3500 springs on my 3500 axle. I’m up to 5 leaf, 5000 +/- . The trailer drags better than ever now. And I’m not too worried about the total weight of the trailer crashing down on one spring, as it sometimes will do.

 

[smritte]

If you bottomed out your suspension enough to brake the spring, it was most likely over flexed. I cant imagine you generating enough heat to fatigue it that bad.

Springs brake because of a few things, poor spring build, poor install and/or flexing the spring in a way its not designed to flex. Most trailer springs support weight very well with little flex. Short stiff springs tend not to be happy off road. Especially ones with a high positive arch. We saw this with people lifting the very early Jeeps. One of the first things we did was install longer springs. This allows the spring to flex over a longer area. If a spring has a tight positive arch (most trailer springs) the spring fatigues fast if forced to flex flat and especially if it flex's negative. One of the early spring mods we did when rock crawl was new, was install early Toyota truck springs due to their length. The springs I choose for my trailers are rear CJ7 springs. Nice long spring to distribute the load and readily available. When we built desert trucks with leaf's, the spring is as long as it can be with very little positive arch.

My rule for spring rate is, the weight should compress the spring at around 25% of its free height (unloaded) and not more than 50%. Most off-road trailer builds I have seen or run with, the springs are barely compressed at all. This tends to cause issues down the road.

 

[Billiebob]

Fully loaded this trailer weighs 1500#.

 

[Billiebob]

I don't think you have ever used or understand independent suspension or an articulated hitch on a trailer. The entire purpose of both is to allow the trailer to function without affecting traction in the tow vehicle and it works very well.

No, this is just spin.

All the Jeep Wranglers and many other 4x4s including a brand new Super Duty Ford use solid axles front and rear. The big advantage to a solid axle and leaf springs is simplicity cost and they are bulletproof when specced correctly. A 2" ball hitch has never held me back, it articulates plenty unless you plan to lay the trailer on its side. Even then at 90 degrees of twist it stays coupled and will keep working after the trailer is stood back up. Bin there, Dun that. Affect the traction of the to vehicle ???? Really you are adding fear to the discussion, pure hogwash.

If you love yer articulating hitch and independent suspension fine but there is nothing wrong with a ball hitch and solid axle on leaf springs.

EDIT, I've done the independent and articulating thing which is why I am a die hard fan of keeping it simple.

 

[Billiebob]

My current trailer, I built a new frame with an axle width to match my Wtangler. 3500# axle on 2000# springs. The trailer weighs 1500#. So the axle is bulletproof and the springs keep the trailer ride relatively smooth. For tires after years of bigger, better????, up to 35s on an LJ I stepped way back to 7.50R16s... a tire size standard on F250s 50 years ago.

The advantages of a skinny light tire ?? the conversion is the 7.50R16 is a 185/100R16 in LT speak. ... The advantages are a smoother ride for both Jeep and trailer plus way better fuel economy, or range in overland speak. An extra 5mpg over the 33s I ran, An extra 95 miles of range. Another plus is winter or wet road driving performance. Those skinny pizza cutters literally cut thru the slush build up on the highway centerline. I do a lot of highway driving towing a work trailer thru winter storms and the guys in quadcab pickups with tires wider than the truck cannot pull out to pass the semi I just passed. In the winter having track widths equal on the truck and trailer is a huge advantage. Skinny tires are a huge advantage.

Only 6 months old but after a 600 mile trip on gravel, I love the tires and matching track. Just realized I don't even have a picture of it yet.

$$ for the custom width axle was $307 with Jeep hubs. Plus the 2000# leaf spring kit. Definitely a best buy. Total assembly time including welding was under an hour.

 

[Billiebob]

There are way too many variables to even offer an educated opinion (not an engineer), but suspension is worthy of overbuilding if any part is.

Is that a home bilt trailer cuz it looks awesome. Well done !!

 

[DRAX]

A 2" ball hitch has never held me back, it articulates plenty unless you plan to lay the trailer on its side. Even then at 90 degrees of twist it stays coupled

Sorry, but no. You cannot get 90-degrees of twist out of a standard ball coupler. The maximum is approximately 30-degrees, 1/3 of what you claim to have experienced. So, using your term, "this is just spin." A 1-7/8" ball will provide a little better max twist angle than a 2", but none of them will get anywhere close to 90-degrees.

 

[MOAK]

Sorry, but no. You cannot get 90-degrees of twist out of a standard ball coupler. The maximum is approximately 30-degrees, 1/3 of what you claim to have experienced. So, using your term, "this is just spin." A 1-7/8" ball will provide a little better max twist angle than a 2", but none of them will get anywhere close to 90-degrees.

That’s exactly the reason I use a 5 ton pintle hook. The articulation is limited, ( maybe 50 degrees, maybe )the trailer isn’t going to go over, & the 5 ton hitch will not break.