Overlanding with "stock" 4X4

[Billiebob]

I didn't say anything about a Toyota, their overpriced or proprietary parts.

Carry a bearing set for Dana 44? No thanks I'm more likely to be struck by lightning.

If you legitimately believe that parts/aftermarket support is better (or even remotely in the same ball park) for LR ANY LR than Jeep ANY Jeep in North America then by all means carry on. I can buy what is necessary to make most any Jeep go down the road at virtually every auto parts store 7 days a week. Good luck doing that with LR.

I'm not talking crap about LR, but Jeep CJ through JL are the most prolific on/off road vehicles in North America by several orders of magnitude. As a result (supply and demand and such) parts availability is superior (durability not withstanding).

yep, just look to buy a used Wrangler vs used LR. The CJ/YJ/TJ/JK/JL for sale .. will out number all the Land Rovers 100 to 1.

 

[systemdelete]

I didn't say anything about a Toyota, their overpriced or proprietary parts.

Carry a bearing set for Dana 44? No thanks I'm more likely to be struck by lightning.

If you legitimately believe that parts/aftermarket support is better (or even remotely in the same ball park) for LR ANY LR than Jeep ANY Jeep in North America then by all means carry on. I can buy what is necessary to make most any Jeep go down the road at virtually every auto parts store 7 days a week. Good luck doing that with LR.

I'm not talking crap about LR, but Jeep CJ through JL are the most prolific on/off road vehicles in North America by several orders of magnitude. As a result (supply and demand and such) parts availability is superior (durability not withstanding).

I’m specifically NOT talking ANY LR vs ANY Jeep. I’m talking about the two in the video YOU quoted. THAT LR and derivatives of IT are designed with parts interchangeability and sourcing that’s not of this decade. It’s built on purpose similar to my ‘74 Bronco’s Dana 44 rather than the jeeps’ Dana 44. Only in the case of the defender they simplified the spindle further rather than using one size bearing onboard and another outboard like the ford, they said no “use the same bearing everywhere” both axles, both sides, inboard, outboard, one bearing PN.

 

[M Rose]

You can thank all the guys chipping their engines for this maybe over reaction by Chrysler to your particular "mod" and some techy lawyer wanna be's interpretation of said "mod". You will also be able to thank those same guys chipping their diesels and pouring black smoke into the air we breathe with the reaction of CARB to seal engines and outlaw anything but factory OEM components. I think they already have done it to motorcycles.

But the over reaction or misinterpretation is always due to guys trying to claim warranty after they chipped their engine to double its horsepower without the brains to realize that might affect its service life.

I have never chipped a vehicle, and I never will. Get a programer, maybe if I ever build my 408 stroker the Ram, then I will have to reprogram he ECU.

Disclaimer: ive been working in the auto industry as a diesel tech and later as an indipendent auto and light truck tech for close to 25 years, ran two of my own shops for nearly 5 years. When I bought my Wrangler I knew jeeps had thier hickups so I purchased an aftermarket bumper to bumper waranty with extended power train waranty just so I wouldnt have to wrench on my own rig and could focusmon every one elses. Second day of owning said Wrangler, the CEL illuminated and I took it strait to the dealership I bought it from. Hey had the Jeep for 1 month, replaced a sensor I side he distributor and said I was good to go. Pulled out of the dealership and made my first turn back towards my shop when the CEL came back on. Turned arround and went back ino the dealership. Their machanic hooked up the cheap HF code reader and pulled some codes and sat down to watch YouTube. I told the guy to take it to Chrysler to get a certified technician to look at it, just in case he ecm needed reprogramming (and the local Dodge Dealership is the only one in my area that has the capabilities to reprogram/update an ecu). Dodge then had the SUV for another month, where they replaced the distributor, the oil pump drive gear and so ething else (I don't remember what). Drove it home wihout issue. Next morning I was heading to work and at the bottom of a steep grade, the drive gear let go. The jeep went into limp mode and started bucking violently in the middle of a patch of black ice. I bounced off of the gaurd rails on both sides of the road damaging the front fenders, bumper caps, denting the left rear quarter panel, and cracking 3 of the rims. I was able to limp back to the Jeep Dealership where they decided o put in the forged camshaft with forged gears, a better timing set, and adress the distributor drive gear. Again this took about another month. Jeep sent my Wrangler strait to the body shop when they were done, where it got new parts put on, quarter panel straitened out, and fresh touch up paint. The body shop couldnt source my wheels, so I had to do that myself. The body shop had my car for a month them selves.
So all in all I had the Jeep 4 monhs and put close to 500 miles on it just commuting to and from work and the dealerships. On my first out of the valley trip afer all tthe hard work was done a rod started knocking. I pulled over and called AAA for a tow back to the Jeep dealership, where I was told that because they put in the non oem timing parts the lower part of the engine wasnt in waranty any more. So I went back o he original dealership and turned the keys over. Unfortunately my financial isatution didnt like that, and is still holding me liable for the remaining 10,000. 7,000 for the jeep itself, and 3,000 for the engine they had to put in.

 

[bgenlvtex]

I’m specifically NOT talking ANY LR vs ANY Jeep. I’m talking about the two in the video YOU quoted. THAT LR and derivatives of IT are designed with parts interchangeability and sourcing that’s not of this decade. It’s built on purpose similar to my ‘74 Bronco’s Dana 44 rather than the jeeps’ Dana 44. Only in the case of the defender they simplified the spindle further rather than using one size bearing onboard and another outboard like the ford, they said no “use the same bearing everywhere” both axles, both sides, inboard, outboard, one bearing PN.

OK, so cherry pick one part, that you will never need on the Jeep under normal circumstances and promote interchangeability. I get it.

I will admit to commenting on the video without watching the video, because the premise of the title is utter garbage.

Are you also going to carry every other spare part you may conceivably need (like a complete electrical system) for your LR, or are you going to rely on parts suppliers?

Again, pretending that parts availability for the LR is superior to or even remotely close to Jeep is absurd.

Going to carry your own inventory? Awesome, parts interchangeability is a factor. Truth is with a Jeep, you won't have to.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Oddly enough, I’ve found somewhat opposite. While Jeep has moved like many modern manufacturers through the years to specialized components, those older defenders and the early discos were pretty serious in their design about using off the shelf parts wherever possible. For example when I needed a front wheel bearing for my 2014 Toyota, it was $$$ and had to come from the warehouse at a local parts supplier, the local dealer, or somewhere over the internet. My hubs on the D1, use a standard set 37, front, rear, left, right, inner, outer, ALL hubs use the same bearing. I can rebuild an entire axles’s bearings and seals for less than that single front hub bearing assembly from the newer Toyota. If I’m carrying spares, a single spindle will bolt at any of the four corners, a pair of bearings will service any of the corners, etc. it reduces cost of spares, space they require, and weight.

I wouldn't have known this if not for your info or worse yet having to find out for myself. I've heard enough about how bad Disco's are and how expensive they are to own. It's all a bunch of crap in what seems an effort by Toyota and Jeep people in these forums to downgrade Land Rover's of all makes. As far as dependability Toyota has shown it is a very reliable vehicle but when they break, and they do, they cost more to fix than any vehicle I know of aside from Mercedes.

Keep up the good reports you have posted pertaining to your LRD. Of all the repairs you have done to your Disco, I have seen none that are any different than any other 4x4 type vehicle being used by off roaders and your cost have been very much in line with any other make. Thank you for your first hand knowledgeable information.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

And cost

yep, just look to buy a used Wrangler vs used LR. The CJ/YJ/TJ/JK/JL will out number all the Land Rovers 100 to 1.

Used Jeeps cost Four times more to buy. The problem with any vehicle 5 years old or older, is that parts stores don't carry the parts on the shelves the way they did 20 years ago. Almost all the parts for all vehicles are in the parts store warehouse. I haven't had any trouble finding mechanical parts from warehouse stock. They may not be made by LR, BUT WHEN YOU BUY A WATER PUMP FOR YOUR JEEP OR OTHER MAKE IT WILL NOT BE MADE BY THE ORIGINAL CAR MAKER EITHER, unless you buy from the car maker dealership and pay double the parts store price.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I have never chipped a vehicle, and I never will. Get a programer, maybe if I ever build my 408 stroker the Ram, then I will have to reprogram he ECU.

Disclaimer: ive been working in the auto industry as a diesel tech and later as an indipendent auto and light truck tech for close to 25 years, ran two of my own shops for nearly 5 years. When I bought my Wrangler I knew jeeps had thier hickups so I purchased an aftermarket bumper to bumper waranty with extended power train waranty just so I wouldnt have to wrench on my own rig and could focusmon every one elses. Second day of owning said Wrangler, the CEL illuminated and I took it strait to the dealership I bought it from. Hey had the Jeep for 1 month, replaced a sensor I side he distributor and said I was good to go. Pulled out of the dealership and made my first turn back towards my shop when the CEL came back on. Turned arround and went back ino the dealership. Their machanic hooked up the cheap HF code reader and pulled some codes and sat down to watch YouTube. I told the guy to take it to Chrysler to get a certified technician to look at it, just in case he ecm needed reprogramming (and the local Dodge Dealership is the only one in my area that has the capabilities to reprogram/update an ecu). Dodge then had the SUV for another month, where they replaced the distributor, the oil pump drive gear and so ething else (I don't remember what). Drove it home wihout issue. Next morning I was heading to work and at the bottom of a steep grade, the drive gear let go. The jeep went into limp mode and started bucking violently in the middle of a patch of black ice. I bounced off of the gaurd rails on both sides of the road damaging the front fenders, bumper caps, denting the left rear quarter panel, and cracking 3 of the rims. I was able to limp back to the Jeep Dealership where they decided o put in the forged camshaft with forged gears, a better timing set, and adress the distributor drive gear. Again this took about another month. Jeep sent my Wrangler strait to the body shop when they were done, where it got new parts put on, quarter panel straitened out, and fresh touch up paint. The body shop couldnt source my wheels, so I had to do that myself. The body shop had my car for a month them selves.
So all in all I had the Jeep 4 monhs and put close to 500 miles on it just commuting to and from work and the dealerships. On my first out of the valley trip afer all tthe hard work was done a rod started knocking. I pulled over and called AAA for a tow back to the Jeep dealership, where I was told that because they put in the non oem timing parts the lower part of the engine wasnt in waranty any more. So I went back o he original dealership and turned the keys over. Unfortunately my financial isatution didnt like that, and is still holding me liable for the remaining 10,000. 7,000 for the jeep itself, and 3,000 for the engine they had to put in.

I like the real story's. The jeeps I see at Moab, off road magazine, cruising the shopping centers, are not jeep any more. They are after market jeeps. Most have $20,000 in mods on top of the initial costs. I'm not knocking jeep, I am knocking the owners who give jeep credit for what jeep is capable of after all the after market mods are made. $$$$$$$$$$$

 

[bgenlvtex]

So in the interest of objectivity, I watched the video I quoted.

In summary their position is the Jeep is far more capable off road, and that with them entirely discounting the lockers the Jeep is equipped with (which they honestly note). Had they engaged the differential lockers their hill climb comparison would have been far different. This is a clear and obvious advantage the Jeep has with practical real world application, and one that put it head and shoulders above the LR .

Also in summary their determination is that the LR is clearly better than the Jeep for overlanding due to space and payload. I don't disagree that space and payload are a consideration, I will however note that while they simply refuse to utilize a factory supplied advantage in the the Jeep (diff lockers) they expound heavily on factory supplied advantage in the LR (cargo space) ultimately declaring the LR superior due entirely to that advantage.

I'll give them points for at least some attempt at objectivity, but it is pretty clear where they were going from the beginning.

One question I do have in particular with the LR is the long term effects of using nanny state mandated ULSD fuel?

So as I originally said, North America? I'll take a Jeep all day every day.
Other parts of the world? Make mine LR please.

In the interest of full transparency for me personally my answer to the payload /cargo concern is a Jeep JTR. I got out of a Wrangler JKR for exactly that reason, there is no room in them.

There are no free rides, for every benefit there is a cost. For every added capability there is some other function affected.

I'm again not throwing crap at LR, or their owners, I just personally feel that they are a poor choice for North America considering the other available options.

 

[bgenlvtex]

I like the real story's. The jeeps I see at Moab, off road magazine, cruising the shopping centers, are not jeep any more. They are after market jeeps. Most have $20,000 in mods on top of the initial costs. I'm not knocking jeep, I am knocking the owners who give jeep credit for what jeep is capable of after all the after market mods are made. $$$$$$$$$$$

Showroom stock there is no more capable broad spectrum on off road vehicle available in the North American market than a Jeep Rubicon.

Before any mods are made.

Toyota gets close with their TRD pro models.
Ford Raptor excels in high speed off road running.
GM ZR2 Bison is a very capable vehicle.

Start modding any of them and for the dollars spent, the most gains will be seen in the Jeep models widening the capability gap significantly. Put the kind of money you are talking about ($20k) and nothing short of a rail frame buggy will stay with them.

 

[Billiebob]

Showroom stock there is no more capable broad spectrum on off road vehicle available in the North American market than a Jeep Rubicon.

Before any mods are made.

Exactly...

and while a few people say they are more expensive used than any other used 4x4, which they are, how is the fact they hold their value better than anything else a negative. A few more $$$ to buy in but in many cases almost no depreciation when you sell to get out. The Rubicon is one of the best buys out there. Break a part on a trail near Moab in the summer, someone will likely drive by with the part you need the same day.

I have a TJR and have done a lot of mods over the years but it is now back to fully stock with the exception of wheels and tires, which are actually smaller and lighter than stock. I say it is now more capable as an overlander since it is more reliable, smoother riding and with greater range than it ever had modified. I learned, every mod stressed something which was not modded. Every mod added weight reducing its capacity and making it ride worse. Every mod, especially the bigger tires killed the gas mileage.

We never pay attention to the decline in gas mileage, we lift, add more rubber, love the look, convince ourselves it is more capable and sort of grumble about the mileage but accept it as a neccessary evil to get the perceived capability we want.

My last change was going from 33x10.50R15s, best of 17mpg, to 7.50R16s, now averaging 22mpg. That 1 change added 95miles to my Jeeps range between gas stations. For overlanding long distances, I call that the best mod ever. No one was more shocked than me when I drove 400km from Revelstoke to Calgary on one tank of gas.

 

[M Rose]

Showroom stock there is no more capable broad spectrum on off road vehicle available in the North American market than a Jeep Rubicon.

Before any mods are made.

Toyota gets close with their TRD pro models.
Ford Raptor excels in high speed off road running.
GM ZR2 Bison is a very capable vehicle.

Start modding any of them and for the dollars spent, the most gains will be seen in the Jeep models widening the capability gap significantly. Put the kind of money you are talking about ($20k) and nothing short of a rail frame buggy will stay with them.

You forgot to mention on your list the Dodge Power Wagon. With stock 33" tires, winch, 400 hp engine, limited slip gears, mechanical transfer case, skid plates, and light, all standard equipment make this truck as a great off the showroom floor (or even used if you can find one) rig. The only thing I would do to one is add a topper, rack system, RTT, and mayby go up to 35" tires, although I personally like 33's for a good all around tire in most applications. Like I said in another thread I would have to drive it stock for at least 12,000 miles to see if changing tire sizes would be needed.

 

[bgenlvtex]

You forgot to mention on your list the Dodge Power Wagon. With stock 33" tires, winch, 400 hp engine, limited slip gears, mechanical transfer case, skid plates, and light, all standard equipment make this truck as a great off the showroom floor (or even used if you can find one) rig. The only thing I would do to one is add a topper, rack system, RTT, and mayby go up to 35" tires, although I personally like 33's for a good all around tire in most applications. Like I said in another thread I would have to drive it stock for at least 12,000 miles to see if changing tire sizes would be needed.

Power Wagon is very capable.

But they are wide, and they are heavy which limit their capability with regards to a Rubicon which was the point. My short listing of capable on off road vehicles is in no way meant to be comprehensive.

 

[M Rose]

Power Wagon is very capable.

But they are wide, and they are heavy which limit their capability with regards to a Rubicon which was the point. My short listing of capable on off road vehicles is in no way meant to be comprehensive.

I understand what you mean with the Rubicon, but adding to your list was the Raptor, wich has some very strong points to it, I felt that the powerwagon is right there next to the raptor, if not slightly ahead of the raptor if found with a diesel.
I have wheeled both wranglers (Rubicon included), and full sized rigs most of my life. I was the laughingstock of the local 4 wheel drive comunity when I showed up in a 1960 Willys Stationwagon for a "Jeep" trail ride. I went every where the CJs went, places the FJ 40s dared to go, and through squeezes that only the bold would go. To me, sizes is only a thing, the rig can only do so much, and the rest is up to the driver. Come fallow me with that Rubi down my favorite trail behind (or infront) of my 2000 Dodge Ram 2500 and I garantee you will turn around before we even get halfway down the trail.

 

[M Rose]

Take my last sentence as tounge and cheek, I do invite whoever wants to go explore a guided tour down my favorite trails

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I’m specifically NOT talking ANY LR vs ANY Jeep. I’m talking about the two in the video YOU quoted. THAT LR and derivatives of IT are designed with parts interchangeability and sourcing that’s not of this decade. It’s built on purpose similar to my ‘74 Bronco’s Dana 44 rather than the jeeps’ Dana 44. Only in the case of the defender they simplified the spindle further rather than using one size bearing onboard and another outboard like the ford, they said no “use the same bearing everywhere” both axles, both sides, inboard, outboard, one bearing PN.

So in the interest of objectivity, I watched the video I quoted.

In summary their position is the Jeep is far more capable off road, and that with them entirely discounting the lockers the Jeep is equipped with (which they honestly note). Had they engaged the differential lockers their hill climb comparison would have been far different. This is a clear and obvious advantage the Jeep has with practical real world application, and one that put it head and shoulders above the LR .

Also in summary their determination is that the LR is clearly better than the Jeep for overlanding due to space and payload. I don't disagree that space and payload are a consideration, I will however note that while they simply refuse to utilize a factory supplied advantage in the the Jeep (diff lockers) they expound heavily on factory supplied advantage in the LR (cargo space) ultimately declaring the LR superior due entirely to that advantage.

I'll give them points for at least some attempt at objectivity, but it is pretty clear where they were going from the beginning.

One question I do have in particular with the LR is the long term effects of using nanny state mandated ULSD fuel?

So as I originally said, North America? I'll take a Jeep all day every day.
Other parts of the world? Make mine LR please.

In the interest of full transparency for me personally my answer to the payload /cargo concern is a Jeep JTR. I got out of a Wrangler JKR for exactly that reason, there is no room in them.

There are no free rides, for every benefit there is a cost. For every added capability there is some other function affected.

I'm again not throwing crap at LR, or their owners, I just personally feel that they are a poor choice for North America considering the other available options.

I cant relate to anything you and @BillyBob are talking about. @systemdelete and I are talking about 30+ year old rigs. You guys are not talking apples and apples. If you want to do that then the new 2020 Land Rover Discovery would have to be considered. I doubt any of the new jeeps you guys are talking about would challenge a new LRD or better it in any way. I'm LMAO at this discussion. Rave on fellas !

I understand what you mean with the Rubicon, but adding to your list was the Raptor, wich has some very strong points to it, I felt that the powerwagon is right there next to the raptor, if not slightly ahead of the raptor if found with a diesel.
I have wheeled both wranglers (Rubicon included), and full sized rigs most of my life. I was the laughingstock of the local 4 wheel drive comunity when I showed up in a 1960 Willys Stationwagon for a "Jeep" trail ride. I went every where the CJs went, places the FJ 40s dared to go, and through squeezes that only the bold would go. To me, sizes is only a thing, the rig can only do so much, and the rest is up to the driver. Come fallow me with that Rubi down my favorite trail behind (or infront) of my 2000 Dodge Ram 2500 and I garantee you will turn around before we even get halfway down the trail.

My friend, you cant debate biased people. I feel the same as you. I'll tale a good driver in anything before I would take a brand in a heads up competition. If a Jeep was half as good as Jeep owners claim, why is the aftermarket full of jeep replacement parts ?
The aftermarket people are the ones who have kept jeep on the road. I've seen more jeeps with Ford or Chevy running gear than anything else on the trail. LOL

 

[Billiebob]

You forgot to mention on your list the Dodge Power Wagon. With stock 33" tires, winch, 400 hp engine, limited slip gears, mechanical transfer case, skid plates, and light, all standard equipment make this truck as a great off the showroom floor (or even used if you can find one) rig. The only thing I would do to one is add a topper, rack system, RTT, and mayby go up to 35" tires, although I personally like 33's for a good all around tire in most applications. Like I said in another thread I would have to drive it stock for at least 12,000 miles to see if changing tire sizes would be needed.

Dodge Power Wagon is a cool pickup truck but it is no where near the capability of a Rubicon.... even with all the Rubicon like options. At some point it will not be able to follow the Rubicon.

The Rubi weighs about 4200#. The Power wagon 7000#. It just takes a sandy beach to strand the Power Wagon. It might even be hard to call the Power Wagon a pickup since all that capability compromizes its payload capacity. Its Curb Weight is 7044# Its GVWR is 8510# Payload capacity 1466#..... 22 gallons of gas is 176#.... a driver and passenger maybe 350#.... leaving 940# for gear...

 

[Billiebob]

I cant relate to anything you and @BillyBob are talking about. @systemdelete and I are talking about 30+ year old rigs.

Hey my Rubi is 15 years old. 240K miles. I put it in the same category as any Discovery. Many of which have lower mileage than my TJR.

 

[bgenlvtex]

I understand what you mean with the Rubicon, but adding to your list was the Raptor, wich has some very strong points to it, I felt that the powerwagon is right there next to the raptor, if not slightly ahead of the raptor if found with a diesel.
I have wheeled both wranglers (Rubicon included), and full sized rigs most of my life. I was the laughingstock of the local 4 wheel drive comunity when I showed up in a 1960 Willys Stationwagon for a "Jeep" trail ride. I went every where the CJs went, places the FJ 40s dared to go, and through squeezes that only the bold would go. To me, sizes is only a thing, the rig can only do so much, and the rest is up to the driver. Come fallow me with that Rubi down my favorite trail behind (or infront) of my 2000 Dodge Ram 2500 and I garantee you will turn around before we even get halfway down the trail.

I posted that brief list just to avoid the "But muh (enter 4x4 of choice here) is really close!" clearly I omitted one.

You won't find a PW with a diesel, they don't make them with a diesel, because the diesel is longer and the winch won't fit.

I get it, I drive a Ram 2500 4x4 daily (not a Power Wagon), it's a great truck, but much too big and heavy. If it won't fit, turn,etc. size matters and it is a hugely limiting factor with full sized trucks, even with Captain Fantastic driving.

This has devolved to a silly bunch of puffery with at least one person not even understanding what is being said, so to return the thread to it's original point, HellYes overlanding with a stock 4x4 is entirely doable, or any other vehicle or beast of burden you choose.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Hey my Rubi is 15 years old. 240K miles. I put it in the same category as any Discovery. Many of which have lower mileage than my TJR.

I'd say so Billybob. I'd also say my D2 is equally as capable as your Rubi with more comfort. I cant say my factory parts are as accessible as yours but since I am not a purest, I have nothing against non LR parts. After market automotive parts are fine with me and as accessible as yours and equally affordable.

 

[Billiebob]

The jeeps I see at Moab, off road magazine, cruising the shopping centers, are not jeep any more. They are after market jeeps. Most have $20,000 in mods on top of the initial costs. I'm not knocking jeep, I am knocking the owners who give jeep credit for what jeep is capable of after all the after market mods are made. $$$$$$$$$$$

And there is the strength, popularity of the Jeep. It is the Hot Rod of the 4x4 community. Parts are available everywhere. If you have an old Jeep like a YJ most of the electric components are stock GM Delco pieces. A dime for any part at an auto wrecker. Heck YJ parts are easier to find than TJ parts.

That said, there is no truth in the statement "a stock Rubicon is only capable after spending $20K". Box stock they can keep up with any other main stream product. But no other vehicle lets you do as much with $20K. In the USA, the Jeep after market is huge. I'll bet something else is the Hot Rod in the UK, Australia and Africa. But in North America, the Jeep is the easiest and cheapest vehicle to play with.

Box stock.... the Wrangler is equal to any other 4x4 and often superior. Factory lockers put any vehicle way beyond open differentials. AND can you overland in a stock 4x4 ?? YES and likely it will ride better, be more economical, and be more reliable than anything modified.... making a stock overlander a better choice than the same thing modified.