Overland Rig: Build it or Buy it?

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Hello folks

There are threads that discuss this on the mudder/rock crawler forums but I didn't see one here after a search so here goes.

The Jeep JK is about to be replaced with an all new model. Details are scarce but it looks like it'll address a few areas of contention I have with current Gen JKs. First, a diesel will be available in North American wranglers for the first time, which theoretically will be a really nice boost to travel range per tank. And the spy shots of the new wrangler look to me to have a bit longer of a cargo box to them, similar to the Jeep Africa concept. And thirdly there looks to be a new plan for the roof which may allow the mounting of roof racks in a more convenient fashion. With the Defender out of production it's conceivable that this Jeep will fill that niche and will remain one of the top overland platforms available at dealerships today. I'd put the Land Cruiser and 4Runner, as well as the Tacoma or the Canyon/Colorado up there too (just my opinion). There are no doubt other options in Europe and Australia I'm not as aware of.

Right now there are 3 main versions of the Jeep, ranging from the very basic Sport to the hardcore off road Rubicon. The same is true of Toyota's - - they have a base model and a far fancier TRD Off Road option.

So here's the question: for Overlanding would you buy the sport/base model of a rig for 10k less ($ CAD, approximate) and use the savings to build it how you want? Or would you invest in the Rubicon/Off road package straight away?

I'm particularly interested in the conversation around Jeeps but we aren't brand snobs here so feel free to play along the pros and cons of this thought experiment with whatever brand and platform you like. Only rule is keep if to new, financable rigs from a dealer (buying used is a perfectly good option but this is meant more to assess the current offerings). I'll start with what I would do with the current jeep lineup to get the perfect overlander for me:

Sport Unlimited Base: $30,000
Packages (Tow, connectivity with key less entry and alarm, upgraded stereo, Aircon) - $6,000
Upgrades:
- AEV suspension - $1,500
- ARB front and rear lockers - $3,000
- Skid Plates - $1,000
- BFG KO2s - $1400

Total:

$43,900

Rubicon Base: $42,000
Packages (Tow, Air Conditioning) - $2,000
Comes with lockers and skids and suspension that's "Good enough" out of the box (though would be a good upgrade within the first 50,000 kms). Also comes with "decent" MTs but I'd want to try to trade or swap for an AT due to the MTs questionable performance in the cold. Hopefully this would be a dealer option or a straight trade.
Regears for better highway-speed performance: $1000

Total: $45,000

There's others stuff I'd add regardless of the package - - roof rack, RTT, on board water ( pump and heater) and air, storage, bumpers, and winch. This would run an additional $6,500 or so.

Conclusion - In my case I'd be better off going with the Rubicon. Resale will be higher and it's only marginally more expensive than a built sport; I'd have inferior suspension on the Rubicon for a time but I'd also have a beefier t-case and axles. And should my situation change the Rubicon is a great Overlander without mods. I'd suspect this will be true of the 2018s too.

What would you do differently? Or how does this thought process stack up on other brands?



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[Lindenwood]

I am partial to the 4runner for the interior space, but in any case Id personally buy a lower model and upgrade what you need.

 

[TerryD]

I had wanted to get a Rubicon this year but those plans have since changed due to budget. However, I'd buy the Rubicon if I were you. If you want a lift, get the lift installed by Jeep as well, it's covered under the factory warranty. I think the Rubicon is worth the money. The D44 in the front and the NP241OR t-case plus already having 4.10 gears (if you special order them with the automatic).

There are things to be said for building, but I don't think the time/money weighs out with this particular case. The Rubicon is just so much more than a Sport right out of the gate and you'll already be going.

 

[toxicity_27]

Ordered a 2013 JKU Sport the first day orders were available. Loved it, however it didn't have everything I wanted, and I didn't have the means to go and buy lockers etc. for it. Also everything I've read is that with the D30 up front, you want to leave it open as they are weak. I ended up trading the 13 Sport in on a 15 JKURHR that I had ordered. It's so nice to be able to hit the sway bar disconnect button and not have to get out to disconnect them. It also came with leather and heated seats which was a plus, as well as already having steel bumpers front and rear, which to me, was a huge savings cost.

As far as the MTs in the cold and snow, yea they're not great, but they could be worse. Put it in 4x4 and you're fine.

Resale is huge! In the two and a half years I owned the Sport I broke even trading it in. I've owned the Rubicon Hard Rock for two years now, and I'm about $9k ahead.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I hear you on the HR package. If the '18s have something similar I'm all over that kind of thing as there's lots of value in the bumpers.

I forgot you can get the AEV kits from jeep and have them warrantied. Seems a shame to say farewell to the Rubicon suspension which isn't bad but I suppose they will use those parts on some other rig.

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[ChasingOurTrunks]

Well that answers the question to some extent for me. Spy photo's just leaked of the new Wranglers. Some neat improvements but it doesn't look like they improved cargo space. This is not the longer Defender 110-style replacement I hoped for.

http://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/say-hi-to-the-2018-jeep-wrangler-jlu.726/

For those in the game though, now could be a great time to pick up a JK cheap!

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[Barton Fink]

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[Jeepney]

I don't think the Jeep will ever match the Defender 110 cargo-space wise, Jeeps have always lacked the cargo space -- unapologetic-ally.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I went with a Sport because I want a "built not bought" sticker so I can look down on all those Rubicon mall crawlers and their drivers (Is there a tongue-in-cheek emoji?).

Actually, I wanted the base model because I wanted to be able to upgrade to the components that worked best for my application. The only thing from a Rubicon that I want is the transfer case (well, and maybe the bigger bank account that accompanies ownership). I don't mind getting out to disconnect the swaybar, there are better aftermarket lockers out there, and the trailer package isn't worth what they charge for it - you can install a hitch for much less.

I wouldn't get a Rubicon if you're planning to get rid of the 4.10 gears for better highway performance. Paying for a Rubicon to drop it to a 3.21 or 3.73 gear ratio seems like a waste of money. If you want better highway performance get a sport with 3.73 and don't get anything bigger than 33's.

I think you're going about it the right way by figuring out where and how you want to spend that money.

One thing you have backwards -- a Rubicon isn't always indicative of a bigger bank account. Mine empties out at the middle of each month due to the payment :D

I hear you on the gears. It really depends on the overall performance. There are times and very specific conditions when the gearing makes a huge difference, but those are few and far between for most North American Overlanding as compared to the miles on high speed dirt or pavement. And at those times you can often compensate for gearing in the axle with the creative use of low range, lockers, and a winch.



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[ChasingOurTrunks]

I don't think the Jeep will ever match the Defender 110 cargo-space wise, Jeeps have always lacked the cargo space -- unapologetic-ally.

And not just cubic feet, but payload. That's why I was hoping for a longer box area on the new JL. Even 6-8 inches would make its a lot easier to haul gear, 4 people, and pets.

The bigger issue is the payload. My Rubicon payload is abysmally low -- 900 lbs or something I think? That means me (210 lbs) my wife (120....shhh don't tell I told you), and our two dogs (150) leaves us with just over 400 lbs left.

Add bumpers (net 50 lbs), a rack (100 lbs), a winch and recovery gear (100 lbs) and you are down to just 150 lbs. Add in the beer and toilet paper and you're over the payload.

Some of this can be mitigated with suspension but the JK platform is capable of MUCH more with strategic gusset int of the frame coupled with that suspension option (take a look at the J8 milspec for what I mean -- they have a payload north of 2,000 lbs). Combine that with a longer box space and you are getting into D110 territory.

The Defender 110 mated with the Jeep's modernity and relative reliability would in my mind be the perfect Overlander. Alas, the new JL is just a cosmetically updated JK in most ways. We'll see if they address the payload question when the specs come out. I can hope and pray for a limited run of "JL-Long" but I'd be better off being aware of my head for the risk of pigs coming into land!

 

[grover]

Also everything I've read is that with the D30 up front, you want to leave it open as they are weak.

I've seen that said but in reality I think it's often the other way around. A locked diff is usually easier on drivetrain components. The reason is, when a driver gets heavy on the gas with an open diff, and one of the wheels comes off the ground, that wheel spins like mad... until it contacts the ground. That sudden shock can easily imploded U/CV joints and axle shafts. I'm no hard-core wheeler but I have seen imploded u-joints with open diffs. Myself and a couple friends have locked D30's (XJ and JK) and I haven't seen any issues so far.

 

[Jeepney]

ah yeah the payload is definitely not good on the Jeep. But again I don't think those folks on the Jeep design board don't have that high in their list. When people think Jeep, they see 4-wheel crawling, 35" tires, 3" lift, flex/articulation, topdown... it just doesn't have the expedition image.

I wonder though if Jeep is eventually gonna tap into the growing Overlanding scene. Think an Expo/Overland edition out of the gate. So outside of suspension, I am curious what else the Jeep will need to get better payload capacity. Better brakes? Sure. Stiffer frame? Not sure, don't these frames see lots of abuse on the rock crawling world? Drivetrain? I doubt it -- it's pretty hefty for overlanding.

 

[Lindenwood]

To add some context to my earlier statement, I was also speaking from my 4Runner experience; I didn't know thus was going to be a Jeep-specific thread! Not knowing much about Jeeps, it sounds like these guys have given great advice.

As far as my 4Runner experience goes, I bought the TRD Pro version for its obvious premium. Admittedly, a good chunk of it was the color. However, at the time I did not think I would get into modding it at all, soI liked that it came with nice enough wheels and tires, and the mild suspension upgrade, to not feel the need to upgrade them.

That said, knowing how much I would have gotten into modding it, for the same money I could have an SR5 with an ARB locker or LSDs, a much nicer suspension, and even some armor and skid upgrades.

So, stepping back from the very new-Jeep-specific discussion, Id still say that in the future I will generally lean toward base models with my own mods before I spring for factory upgrades**.

**Obviously, I can see that the Rubicon upgrades are far more consequential than the TRDP upgrades, so the Rubicon actually does sound like its upgrades do carry practical value.

 

[Glenn]

It doesn't matter what you buy to start with, you will always modify "something"...lol

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

To add some context to my earlier statement, I was also speaking from my 4Runner experience; I didn't know thus was going to be a Jeep-specific thread! Not knowing much about Jeeps, it sounds like these guys have given great advice.

As far as my 4Runner experience goes, I bought the TRD Pro version for its obvious premium. Admittedly, a good chunk of it was the color. However, at the time I did not think I would get into modding it at all, soI liked that it came with nice enough wheels and tires, and the mild suspension upgrade, to not feel the need to upgrade them.

That said, knowing how much I would have gotten into modding it, for the same money I could have an SR5 with an ARB locker or LSDs, a much nicer suspension, and even some armor and skid upgrades.

So, stepping back from the very new-Jeep-specific discussion, Id still say that in the future I will generally lean toward base models with my own mods before I spring for factory upgrades**.

**Obviously, I can see that the Rubicon upgrades are far more consequential than the TRDP upgrades, so the Rubicon actually does sound like its upgrades do carry practical value.

Thanks Lindenwood, this wasn't intended to be a Jeep specific thread and all brands are welcome. You do raise a really good point -- the "build or buy" equation very much depends on WHAT you are able to buy.

I agree on the Toyota option. The base Toyota already has pretty robust parts, and the price leap to the TRD is usually far more money than its worth. I'd argue the same is true with the GMC/Chevy line and their off road package.

Swinging over to Ford, the F-150 is a great truck. But the capabilities of the Raptor make that a tempting upgrade (if you can afford 3x the price of a work truck!)

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[Lindenwood]

I vote build your vehicle.
My pet project 1958 Willys/

While that sounds like an awesome project, the OP did say he was looking to discuss new or near-new vehicles, as opposed to 60-year-old relics hand-built into custom rigs ;) .

Only rule is keep if to new, financable rigs from a dealer (buying used is a perfectly good option but this is meant more to assess the current offerings).

Regardless of his reasoning, I still think it is worthwhile to discuss it for forum members considering an offroad-capable vehicle, who also want something factory-reliable. I have done far more than my fair share of wrenching on various vehicles, and with the following statement I mean absolutely no disrespect to your skills or tenacity. However, I would feel far mofe confortable sending my wife off on a road trip in a new Rubicon than anything old enough that you can spend more than the truck is worth in standard offroad upgrades :) .

But, in the context of the intended discussion, and with respect to 4Runners, I don't think a new SR5 with an aftermarket locker, lift, and armor will really take any hit in reliability over a factory Trail. And, I would definitely rather have the former than the ladder.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Buying an older rig and building it up is my dream. Someday I'll get a 30 year old Unimog or something.

But, the trouble with that approach is it doesn't account for your time -- you really have to both have time to spend sourcing parts and researching options on top of the time actually doing the work. With a JK I can spend 20 minutes and narrow down my suspension options, place an order, and have the system ready to install by next weekend. By Monday I'd be driving.

An older rig can take more time. I've got a 1968 Chevy impala that was supposed to be a 2 year project....and that was 7 years ago and it's still in bits!

But 58-fc-170, I'm guessing you both enjoy the work and are good at to - - and I'd bet it's hard to beat how satisfied you feel when you get it all together!

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[Ironhide Fx4]

Thanks Lindenwood, this wasn't intended to be a Jeep specific thread and all brands are welcome. You do raise a really good point -- the "build or buy" equation very much depends on WHAT you are able to buy.

I agree on the Toyota option. The base Toyota already has pretty robust parts, and the price leap to the TRD is usually far more money than its worth. I'd argue the same is true with the GMC/Chevy line and their off road package.

Swinging over to Ford, the F-150 is a great truck. But the capabilities of the Raptor make that a tempting upgrade (if you can afford 3x the price of a work truck!)

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I can comment on the F150 bit. Yes the Raptor is very cool, however I won't buy one for overlanding. If I were to do it all over again, and staying with the f150, I would buy another Fx4 with factory 3.73s and rear locker. The problems for me with the Raptor are cost, width, and payload. The new Raptors are going for up to and over 70k there is no extra left after that for most. You can get an fx4 for 40k all day long. Throw 5k at it and you have an amazing overland rig. Heck you can even compete or be better than a raptor with some upgrades on a stock f150. Of course, if your bombing through the desert you want the wide Raptor and all its fun go fast electronics

 

[Anchor Mtn]

If you are ever planning on going bigger than 35" tires on the jeep.... you might as well get the sport(or sahara). You will want to regear to at least 4.56 gears and the D44 housing isnt any stronger than the D30 housing. The 4:1 T-case in the Rubicon is great in the big rocks but leaves a huge ratio gap for normal trail riding and sand. Disconnecting anti-Sway-bar only works up to about 12mph and then you are back to street mode and a rough ride on dirt roads. A front Currie Anti-rock will keep the rig feeling smooth and controlled offroad and on road.

 

[sledgehomer]

If you are ever planning on going bigger than 35" tires on the jeep.... you might as well get the sport(or sahara). You will want to regear to at least 4.56 gears and the D44 housing isnt any stronger than the D30 housing. The 4:1 T-case in the Rubicon is great in the big rocks but leaves a huge ratio gap for normal trail riding and sand. Disconnecting anti-Sway-bar only works up to about 12mph and then you are back to street mode and a rough ride on dirt roads. A front Currie Anti-rock will keep the rig feeling smooth and controlled offroad and on road.

The tubes and brackets, ends and knuckles are all the same between the d30 and d44 on the JK. The only difference is the carrier & differential.

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