Nitrogen "Blend"

[smritte]

This is NOT about the plus or minus around nitrogen in tires. This is something a co-worker brought up and then I heard it again later in another conversation.
The original comment to me was "my mother went to a shop (tire maybe) and was told, were out of nitrogen but we can sell you a nitrogen blend".
Sigh.
I hope this is not a new trend.
FYI. Air is a nitrogen blend. 78% nitrogen, 20(ish)% oxygen, 1% argon and other stuff. Blend.
It's bad enough people are being sold nitrogen for $300-$500 but now were tricking people into paying for air?


Rant over.

 

[rtexpeditions]

They should put in Helium, to make your vehicle lighter.

 

[old_man]

They should put in Helium, to make your vehicle lighter.

Just because helium will pass through the rubber and leak out is not a problem.

 

[smritte]

Just because helium will pass through the rubber and leak out is not a problem.

Auto "Air Down"?

 

[RatAssassin]

One time, a tire guy tried to sell me the Nitrogen fill by telling me that (what he actually called) "regular air" rots out tires from the inside and they can fail.
I then challenged him right there in front of a full waiting area to take me out to the large pile of used tires out back anyone could clearly see and show me one of those "regular air" damaged tires. The guy looks at me, looks around the room at everyone looking at him and then very quietly says, "Ok then".

Dude stepped back real quick.

 

[smritte]

Sadly, the sales guy is correct. The issue more than anything isn’t the air but the water. Water forms acids and break down the rubber, Water vapor will leach into the carcass and corrode the metal linings in the belts.
In a nut shell, if you run air your tires will rot, come apart and you will crash.
The part no one tells you is how long this takes. The projected time frame is 10-15 years for noticeable damage.
He didn’t lie. Just left out the math or was not told the whole truth.

 

[Mad Garden Gnome]

They should put in Helium, to make your vehicle lighter.

BETTER MILEAGE!!!

 

[Mad Garden Gnome]

Unless you put the tire under complete vacuum prior to a nitrogen service, you will never get a true nitrogen service. Plus, if you aren't cruising at altitude and then accelerating your tires from zero to landing speed on a runway, you don't need it.

 

[grubworm]

i use straight oxygen in my tires just in case i ever get chased by foreign spies or a road rage dude and i end up having to drive off into a lake and have to breathe while staying submerged to keep from getting shot....
ya just never know these days...

 

[Mad Garden Gnome]

You, sir, are a survivor.

 

[YoKramer]

Unless you put the tire under complete vacuum prior to a nitrogen service, you will never get a true nitrogen service. Plus, if you aren't cruising at altitude and then accelerating your tires from zero to landing speed on a runway, you don't need it.

Depends on applications but yea its a gimmick for 90% of people.

I worked as a tech at a dealer and we had a nitrogen machine so I decided to put it in my autox tires for a 12hr event we were doing. We set our pressures at the beginning to what we wanted at the end of our first run and we say maybe a .5psi rise from cold and it rose 2psi over the whole event. Normally we would see a 5-10psi rise over a single run and .5-1psi after the tires were hot and adjusted back down to what we wanted the pressures to be.

Nitrogen is a much more stable gas than straight air and even without a perfect 100% swap still does a much better job with air pressure changes between hot and cold, whether due to extreme conditions (racing/autox) or just general temp changes. Now the whole "Itll make your tires last longer and make all the women love you" BS you usually get with it from sales people is just pure garbage.

As for off-roading & overlanding Im not sure its worth the money you would spend having it done with how often we tend to air down and up.

 

[smritte]

As for off-roading & overlanding Im not sure its worth the money you would spend having it done with how often we tend to air down and up

Back in the late 70's, I started seeing nitrogen tanks in the desert race pits. Way easier than a gas powered air compressor for tools and tires. Eventually everyone had nitrogen tanks in the pit. Then I started seeing them in jeeps for tire filling. The issue with small nitrogen tanks was, very few places will fill them, exchange only. Your small, very expensive, polished aluminum tank wasn't going to be swapped. Instead of nitrogen, people started filling the small tanks with CO2. Most welding shops would fill those.
I still like my on board air. I just need electricity. My tow rig only got nitrogen. My buddy uses nitrogen for his pit crews, and keeps large tanks. I just use his.

 

[YoKramer]

Back in the late 70's, I started seeing nitrogen tanks in the desert race pits. Way easier than a gas powered air compressor for tools and tires. Eventually everyone had nitrogen tanks in the pit. Then I started seeing them in jeeps for tire filling. The issue with small nitrogen tanks was, very few places will fill them, exchange only. Your small, very expensive, polished aluminum tank wasn't going to be swapped. Instead of nitrogen, people started filling the small tanks with CO2. Most welding shops would fill those.
I still like my on board air. I just need electricity. My tow rig only got nitrogen. My buddy uses nitrogen for his pit crews, and keeps large tanks. I just use his.

Yea Ive looked at the CO2 systems cause having an air tool on the trail for backup would be nice but on board air and battery tools work fine for me.

 

[old_man]

Yea Ive looked at the CO2 systems cause having an air tool on the trail for backup would be nice but on board air and battery tools work fine for me.

I run an air/hydraulic jack, so I can slide it under the vehicle and plug it in my CO2 a presto the rig is in the air. I hook up the impact and the wheel is off in less than a minute.

 

[YoKramer]

I run an air/hydraulic jack, so I can slide it under the vehicle and plug it in my CO2 a presto the rig is in the air. I hook up the impact and the wheel is off in less than a minute.

Yea I can for sure see the upsides to it. May have to re think it.

 

[DRAX]

Nitrogen is a much more stable gas than straight air and even without a perfect 100% swap still does a much better job with air pressure changes between hot and cold, whether due to extreme conditions (racing/autox) or just general temp changes.

It actually isn't more temp stable than air, "air" and nitrogen expand and contract the same with temperature changes, what makes the difference is what was mentioned previously; Moisture content inside the tire. If you had 2 tires, one with 100% dry nitrogen and one with 100% dry air, with no moisture content at all, they would behave exactly the same in terms of pressure change with temperature. This is part of the ideal gas law and has been proven. You can swap out 100% of the "air" with dry nitrogen but if there is any moisture still condensed inside the tire then you're going to see large pressure swings as tire temps change as the condensed moisture switches from a liquid to a gas as temperatures rise.

Dry air, nitrogen, or CO2 will all provide the same pressure changes as temps change, there's no way around that. Race cars use 100% dry nitrogen so they can accurately predict on-track tire pressures once the tires are up to operating temperature, tire pressures can win or lose races.

 

[YoKramer]

It actually isn't more temp stable than air, "air" and nitrogen expand and contract the same with temperature changes, what makes the difference is what was mentioned previously; Moisture content inside the tire. If you had 2 tires, one with 100% dry nitrogen and one with 100% dry air, with no moisture content at all, they would behave exactly the same in terms of pressure change with temperature. This is part of the ideal gas law and has been proven. You can swap out 100% of the "air" with dry nitrogen but if there is any moisture still condensed inside the tire then you're going to see large pressure swings as tire temps change as the condensed moisture switches from a liquid to a gas as temperatures rise.

Dry air, nitrogen, or CO2 will all provide the same pressure changes as temps change, there's no way around that. Race cars use 100% dry nitrogen so they can accurately predict on-track tire pressures once the tires are up to operating temperature, tire pressures can win or lose races.

Interesting, makes sense that we had the experience we did with it being done with an exchanger. Thanks for the clarification!