Low Sulfur Diesel Engine or not?

[MidOH]

Just cut back on the bling. My F250XL Fx4, CCSB, was $38,000. 2020's might be around $40 right now.

That's not terrible. Used truck prices are too high IMO. And I only trade mine in if it's a lemon.

 

[DRAX]

Keep in mind it's ULTRA-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) that is needed for 2007+ trucks. Low-sulfur diesel has been around for decades and is what was available before the ULSD mandate. This is critical to know because if you think it's LSD that you need and are looking to make sure locations have LSD, not ULSD, and you have an emissions-intact 2007+ diesel that LSD will eventually kill your DPF. Last time I checked, ULSD was rare south of North America. Can even be hard to find in parts of Mexico.

Also, Ag/off-road/marine diesel is dyed ULSD in the US. It hasn't been LSD for a long time, the only risk you have by running Ag/off-road diesel in your truck is if you get pulled over by a DOT/commercial enforcement LEO that wants to dip your tank or inspect your filters to see if you're running untaxed off-road diesel.

If you're planning on heading south with a diesel then I wouldn't recommend taking a DPF-equipped vehicle.

 

[Boostpowered]

Yall seem to forget that a dpf system is basically a catalytic converter for diesels. You know cats clog up and go bad too its a consumable item not some magic button that melts everything down when they go out.
If you have dpf eventually it will fail no matter how good the diesel is its a fact of life.

Delete or live with it and replace when needed both cost about the same.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

...no 98 bottle wine rack, and you'll be fine.

Good advice. Do what I do and decant the 98 bottles into large plastic bladders. WAY more portable and you save the weight of the rack AND the glass bottles!

(Kidding)

Gas is probably the best option for international overland travel if anyone at all is worried about fuel quality and/or availability. My reasons for saying this confidently are simple -- the entire world has motorbikes running around, and very, VERY few run on anything other than gas, and MOST have far less range than even a very poor quality car. So if a motorbike can do it, any gas 4-wheeled rig can get there too. (This doesn't have anything to do with terrain -- just fuel availability. Terrain-wise bikes can go lots of places cars can't of course!)

All that being said, I'm looking at Diesel in my next rig so this topic interests me. WIth a bit of research, it seems surfer levels vary widely. The highest is over 5000 PPM, but the overwhelming majority of the planet is on about 50 PPM or less, which isn't THAT much more than 15 PPM (The ULSD requirement) in the overall scheme of things, is it? Obviously, 50 PPM is way more than 15 PPM, but how impactful is that on a scale that goes to a hundred times higher than that? I guess the main question is how long would a system designed for 15 PPM fuel run on 50 PPM fuel before giving up the ghost?

My thinking is that if a truck can expect -- let's just say 100,000 miles -- out of it's emissions system using ULSD before needing to replace it (To Boostpowered's point), how much less do they get if they are running 50 PPM diesel? It strikes me that even if it cuts that in half or even by 75% -- 50,000 or 25,000 mile before the emissions die -- that's a manageable maintenance item that a person can plan for. I imagine this data could be graphed -- as PPM increases, expected longevity of an emissions system goes down. I'd be curious about that curve looks like.

But I also know very, very little about diesels so I'd be interested in learning from others on this one.

 

[Billiebob]

I'm in the market for a used F450-F550 for the purpose of converting to an overland camper for travel globally. My understanding is that all diesel engines manufactured after 2007 require low sulfur diesel fuel? Some people have mentioned that not all countries have low sulfur diesel and that low sulfur diesel engines will have problems with their fuel. I'm just trying to decide whether to buy pre-low sulfur diesel or not. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

yes, buy an early diesel
low sulphur is a first world thing
OLD diesels could run on almost ahything..... which is what you might be forced to buy

 

[DRAX]

Yall seem to forget that a dpf system is basically a catalytic converter for diesels. You know cats clog up and go bad too its a consumable item not some magic button that melts everything down when they go out.
If you have dpf eventually it will fail no matter how good the diesel is its a fact of life.

Delete or live with it and replace when needed both cost about the same.

A DPF is actually not anything like a cat. There is no catalytic reaction going on. A DPF is a particulate trap that traps soot and once the differential pressure sensor detects the filter is "full" the computer initiates a regen to burn the soot into ash which remains inside the DPF. Running LSD instead of ULSD will cause sulfur fouling of the DPF which cannot be "burned off" and the DPF is trash. Under normal operation with ULSD a DPF will eventually reach its end of life due to ash content, however that ash can actually be removed by any number of DPF cleaning services and then the DPF is almost like new for a fraction of the cost of replacing it.

You're operating on some pretty bad misinformation about diesel emissions and fuel, really shouldn't be giving people advice about how to operate their diesels. Sorry.

Anyone that has a DPF needs to run ULSD. A single tank of LSD isn't likely to kill it, but running it over a few thousand miles could very well do it.

 

[DRAX]

Good advice. Do what I do and decant the 98 bottles into large plastic bladders. WAY more portable and you save the weight of the rack AND the glass bottles!

(Kidding)

Gas is probably the best option for international overland travel if anyone at all is worried about fuel quality and/or availability. My reasons for saying this confidently are simple -- the entire world has motorbikes running around, and very, VERY few run on anything other than gas, and MOST have far less range than even a very poor quality car. So if a motorbike can do it, any gas 4-wheeled rig can get there too. (This doesn't have anything to do with terrain -- just fuel availability. Terrain-wise bikes can go lots of places cars can't of course!)

All that being said, I'm looking at Diesel in my next rig so this topic interests me. WIth a bit of research, it seems surfer levels vary widely. The highest is over 5000 PPM, but the overwhelming majority of the planet is on about 50 PPM or less, which isn't THAT much more than 15 PPM (The ULSD requirement) in the overall scheme of things, is it? Obviously, 50 PPM is way more than 15 PPM, but how impactful is that on a scale that goes to a hundred times higher than that? I guess the main question is how long would a system designed for 15 PPM fuel run on 50 PPM fuel before giving up the ghost?

My thinking is that if a truck can expect -- let's just say 100,000 miles -- out of it's emissions system using ULSD before needing to replace it (To Boostpowered's point), how much less do they get if they are running 50 PPM diesel? It strikes me that even if it cuts that in half or even by 75% -- 50,000 or 25,000 mile before the emissions die -- that's a manageable maintenance item that a person can plan for. I imagine this data could be graphed -- as PPM increases, expected longevity of an emissions system goes down. I'd be curious about that curve looks like.

But I also know very, very little about diesels so I'd be interested in learning from others on this one.

You're off by a factor of 10 for LSD. Prior to the ULSD requirement of 15ppm diesel was up to 500ppm for LSD, not 50.

100k out of a DPF is low unless you do a lot of short trips and are constantly in regen. 250k isn't unreasonable, so for the sake of argument let's use that number for this comparison. A DPF that lasts 250k before needing to be replaced due to non-soot-related problems (meaning it can't be cleaned and put back into service due to something like sulfur fouling/contamination) while using ULSD will end up failing after roughly 7,500 miles of driving with 500ppm LSD. That's the difference between 15ppm and 500ppm diesel and why you don't run LSD if you have A DPF.

 

[Sailmike]

Can the DPF just be cleaned more frequently if exposed to a lot of non-ULSD?

 

[leeloo]

Can the DPF just be cleaned more frequently if exposed to a lot of non-ULSD?

There is a guy doing a world tour in a new Iveco diesel truck. He is very knowledgeable and makes very good research .

High sulphur fuel and other fuel issues for modern European engines

Modern European engines aren't designed for high sulphur fuel. Here are the fuel issues of taking a Euro 5 engine to countries with high sulphur fuel

www.tuckstruck.net

To resume, it depends a lot on how well the DPF and injection system is designed. Iveco daily or mercedes Sprinter 4x4 vans seem to do fine. 500 ppm Diesel it is a non issue. More than that, the effects seem to be temporary.
That being said, if the particular model you want does not have a good rep even in ideal conditions ( meaning running with the fuel it was designed for ) , you might have a lot of problems.
For sure you will need to half you oil service interval when running on high sulfur diesel and you DPF burning cycle will kick in more often.
Makes life a bit harder with a modern diesel but it is doable.
Around the world I would take a petrol engine, if possible, just to avoid complications. Fuel is just a part of the total cost of a such a long term trip. There are many others. Visas, road taxes, paperwork, food, paid camping spots, all kinds of insurance for vehicle, health etc..In the overall grand scheme of things of long distance and long term travel, there is not a huge difference of cost between going around the world in a diesel or a petrol vehicle.
So I would go for the less complicated way always if cost is similar..
I was forced to buy a diesel pick up, because all pick ups in Europe are diesel. I heard in 2023 there will be a Hybrid Landcruiser Prado and even a petrol hybrid Hilux. . it will have the best of both world.. simple engines wil high tolerance for bad fuel, and low taxes and good fuel economy.. I will be the first in line for those.
A 12 year old vehicle, or even older, comes with its own set of issues, starting from safety features to reliability problems. I had old vehicles, and no matter how well they were built, when you push they will break . You will carry a lot all the time, electrics start to break etc. For sure you will have problems and cost and lost time. So yes, you will not have issues due to fuel but because of age. So you trade one set of mechanical problems with another set and lose comfort and safety.
On the other hand they are cheap to begin with. So for the overall budget, can make a big impact if you start with a 20 k or 60 k vehicle. For 40 K you can fix a lot of things a long the way and extend your trip with many months.. but you lose comfort and safety.
Lots of things to consider. ...

 

[Boostpowered]

A DPF is actually not anything like a cat. There is no catalytic reaction going on. A DPF is a particulate trap that traps soot and once the differential pressure sensor detects the filter is "full" the computer initiates a regen to burn the soot into ash which remains inside the DPF. Running LSD instead of ULSD will cause sulfur fouling of the DPF which cannot be "burned off" and the DPF is trash. Under normal operation with ULSD a DPF will eventually reach its end of life due to ash content, however that ash can actually be removed by any number of DPF cleaning services and then the DPF is almost like new for a fraction of the cost of replacing it.

You're operating on some pretty bad misinformation about diesel emissions and fuel, really shouldn't be giving people advice about how to operate their diesels. Sorry.

Anyone that has a DPF needs to run ULSD. A single tank of LSD isn't likely to kill it, but running it over a few thousand miles could very well do it.

You didn't get the point of my post it is a consumable item something that will need replaced in the life of your diesel , never said it makes a catalytic conversion. Although they both turn bad gasses into less bad gasses.
And on diesel I own a fleet of tractors all run on diesel my daily driver is diesel, so I kind of do know what I'm talking about on diesel.

I've known 7 people who have done south America in a modern diesel , of the 7 people 2 needed a dpf filter changed after the trip. I'm no scientist but those seem to be pretty good odds to me

I'm suprised no one has mentioned that ulsd has to have 20% biodiesel mixed in to meet lubricating standards.

 

[Boostpowered]

Nothing alike huh? Maybe more than you think.


How It Works
There are different types of DPF's but the most common type is a double walled flow through design made with a cordierite core. This core is similar to a full flow catalytic converter honeycomb design with half of the channels blocked at the inlet and the other half blocked at the outlet forcing the exhaust gasses to flow though the walls between the channels. As the exhaust gasses flow though the walls, the particulate matter is trapped where it remains until it is burned off during regeneration. After regeneration, the resulting minute amount of ash remains where over time it too will build up and require removal. Ash removal can only be done manually which requires removal of the DPF to be cleaned in a reverse flow machine designed to remove ash and collect it for proper disposal. The substrate cores of both catalytic converters and particulate filters are similar in composition and construction.

6.4L Catalyst (Oxi-Cat)​

Take A Closer Look The core on the left reveals the open passages of a catalytic converter which exhaust gasses flow directly through. On the right, the alternating pattern of blocked passages in the core of a particulate filter is quite apparent. The opposite ends of the open cores is blocked off and the opposite ends of the blocked passages are open. This means that exhaust gasses enter the open passages and must pass through the substrate to the alternating passages and exit out the other end.

6.4L DPF (Particulate Filter)​

 

[smlobx]

I have several comments and have thought about this a lot.

First, I have owed a construction company for 37 years and have probably owned over 50 diesel powered vehicles prior to retiring last year. I still have a 2016 F-350 diesel truck with a Hallmark pop up expedition camper as well as a CAT skid steer that I keep to play with.

Secondly, I have a fair amount of overland experience having driven not only over North America but Central America, Africa and Europe as well

When I decided to get a new rig to build I looked at this question hard as I do have a fondness for Diesel engines. But I am also a realist and have experienced some of the problems with modern Diesel engines.

I plan to take the new truck to Mexico and Central America and although there is some ULSD available it is not widely available, particularly if you plan on going off the beaten track and away from major cities. Therefore, I chose a Jeep Gladiator and am building it out slowly to mimic the Toyota 79 Series that we used on our African Expeditions. We rented these vehicles from this company if you want to see how they did it (www.bushlore.com).

I don’t know if you guys have ever heard of Dan Grec but I highly recommend you check him out. He’s just a regular dude who bought a Jeep and did the Pan American Highway from Alaska down to the tip of South America. He then bought another Jeep and drove completely around Africa. He has published a couple of books and has a pretty good Utube Channel. So he has been asked the gas/diesel question many times and decided to do a video on it ...here it is..

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

You're off by a factor of 10 for LSD. Prior to the ULSD requirement of 15ppm diesel was up to 500ppm for LSD, not 50.

100k out of a DPF is low unless you do a lot of short trips and are constantly in regen. 250k isn't unreasonable, so for the sake of argument let's use that number for this comparison. A DPF that lasts 250k before needing to be replaced due to non-soot-related problems (meaning it can't be cleaned and put back into service due to something like sulfur fouling/contamination) while using ULSD will end up failing after roughly 7,500 miles of driving with 500ppm LSD. That's the difference between 15ppm and 500ppm diesel and why you don't run LSD if you have A DPF.

Thanks for the info, that's exactly the kind of info I was hoping to get with my question. That is a significant reduction in mileage on using non-ULSD in an ULSD-spec'd vehicle. Minor clarification (which doesn't change things much at all) but the 50 PPM number I used wasn't based on an LSD spec -- I was just going off the Wiki article I linked and the list of countries it describes, as well as the map that another poster shared, which shows a good chunk of the world has 50 PPM fuel available. But, those parts of the world with 50 PPM are often separated from each other/everywhere else by parts of the world with 500 PPM so the point you have made still stands!

Of course, a good chunk of the world also has propane available...but good luck finding a propane vehicle filling station outside of major fleet areas (i.e. big cities with taxi fleets). In other words, "Available" doesn't necessarily mean "accessible" when you need it for remote touring applications.

 

[Sailmike]

I just looked up data on the 206 F550 gas and diesel engines. The F550 gas V10 engine puts out 457 ft-lbs of torque and the V8 diesel engine puts out 570 ft-lbs of torque. How big a difference do those numbers make in terms of off road handling? Hill climbing? Going through mud? Sand?

Also, do diesel trucks last longer than gas?

 

[MidOH]

Off road? Nothing. Nada. Power in low gears is plenty, excessive even. Power just breaks stuff. Take it easy off road.

But the gas engine is much lighter, so going up slick hills, is obviously easier.

Diesels used to live longer. Not anymore. And gas engines are cheaply disposable. When you get to your second timing chain replacement interval, you can scrap the long block, or ride it until it grenades.

 

[Sailmike]

Off road? Nothing. Nada. Power in low gears is plenty, excessive even. Power just breaks stuff. Take it easy off road.

But the gas engine is much lighter, so going up slick hills, is obviously easier.

Diesels used to live longer. Not anymore. And gas engines are cheaply disposable. When you get to your second timing chain replacement interval, you can scrap the long block, or ride it until it grenades.

Even with a heavy camper?

 

[MidOH]

Overlanding campers ain't heavy for a gas 6.8, 6.2, 7.3, 8.1, or 8.8's.

Assuming proper axle ratios.

 

[Sailmike]

Overlanding campers ain't heavy for a gas 6.8, 6.2, 7.3, 8.1, or 8.8's.

Assuming proper axle ratios.

Thank you!

Problem is diesels far outnumber gas trucks making it much easier to find a diesel at a good price.

 

[MazeVX]

Maybe this map will help. I was told that everything above "green" is ok for dpf diesel engines.

Global Sulphur Levels

Global Sulphur Levels

www.unenvironment.org

 

[Get Out GO]

The problem is not only finding 50ppm diesel in some remote / rural areas but also the quality of diesel. I would recommend a pre-filter (2-micron) regardless. This has saved my motor a couple of times.
I have a 2012 Toyota D4D diesel and it doesn't mind 500ppm every now and then. I also had a 70 series Land cruiser before and opted for the 1HZ motor instead of the V8 specifically for sulphur and diesel quality.

For a global overlander I would seriously consider gas instead of diesel;