Lithium Car Batteries

[Fozzy325]

For years i have been using a replacement Lithium-ION battery in my Harley Electraglide and BMW R1200GS and I have not had any issues.

However it has been I use them or I don't use them, the good thing is the power is consistent until it gets to 10.5v then it dies and when it does it may not recover and recharge.
The good thing for the Harley it was 625 CCA.

So what is the feasibility or justification to have Lithium batteries for a SUV/Offroading vehicle except for the CCR.

I can think of the following.

PRO’s
1. for the same size battery you could mount 2 lithium's in parallel in the same space giving more amps
2. allowing more things to be run when the vehicle is running
3. Better / flatter discharge rates ( I think your comment about consistent power is related, just a finer point)
4. 4x or more charge cycles than SLA/AGM
5. faster charge times
6. 1/4 the weight of SLA/AGM
7. lower TCO

CON’s
1. if they get wet they explode
2. higher initial cost
3. more volatile

I'm just trying to justify why or why not I should think about getting it

Edited the list to add PRO/CON from member pl626

 

[pl626]

For years i have been using a replacement Lithium-ION battery in my Harley Electraglide and BMW R1200GS and I have not had any issues.

However it has been I use them or I don't use them, the good thing is the power is consistent until it gets to 10.5v then it dies and when it does it may not recover and recharge.
The good thing for the Harley it was 625 CCA.

So what is the feasibility or justification to have Lithium batteries for a SUV/Offroading vehicle except for the CCR.

I can think of the following.
1. for the same size battery you could mount 2 lithium's in parallel in the same space giving more amps
2. allowing more things to be run when the vehicle is running

con = is if they get wet they explode

I'm just trying to justify why or why not I should think about getting it

So you forgot some more pros:
- Better / flatter discharge rates ( I think your comment about consistent power is related, just a finer point)
- 4x or more charge cycles than SLA/AGM
- faster charge times
- 1/4 the weight of SLA/AGM
- lower TCO

Cons:
- higher initial cost
- more volatile

 

[The other Sean]

isn't there something about them not liking cold temps as much as AGM batteries?

 

[Fozzy325]

isn't there something about them not liking cold temps as much as AGM batteries?

From batteryuniversity.com

The performance of all batteries drops drastically at low temperatures; however, the elevated internal resistance will cause some warming effect by efficiency loss caused by voltage drop when applying a load current. At –20°C (–4°F) most batteries are at about 50 percent performance level. Although NiCd can go down to –40°C (–40°F), the permissible discharge is only 0.2C (5-hour rate). Specialty Li-ion can operate to a temperature of –40°C but only at a reduced discharge rate; charging at this temperature is out of the question. With lead acid there is the danger of the electrolyte freezing, which can crack the enclosure. Lead acid freezes quicker with a low charge when the specific gravity is more like water than when fully charged.

 

[Kent R]

You had me at explode!

 

[Fozzy325]

You had me at explode!

One of my functions in the military was command post signaller so I was always given the 351/352 clansman radio. In the mid 90’s they came out with lithium-ion batteries which were disposable.
The only thing the MOD said to us is don’t get them wet.

We being on foot patrols etc. We can’t stop that. When the water shorted the batteries it was like a firework show on our backs.

 

[MazeVX]

Modern Lifepo4 batteries don't explode!!!
You need to charge them with a charge booster and have a discharge and balance circuit that's absolutely necessary. Protection and balance can be internal or external, some may not need balancing but discharge protection is necessary. You have higher cost but you will have twice the performance of everything else by 1/3 of the weight.

 

[Fozzy325]

Modern Lifepo4 batteries don't explode!!!
You need to charge them with a charge booster and have a discharge and balance circuit that's absolutely necessary. Protection and balance can be internal or external, some may not need balancing but discharge protection is necessary. You have higher cost but you will have twice the performance of everything else by 1/3 of the weight.

Does it matter if Li-on are vertical or horizontal?
Does the charger need to be different if you wire the batteries in parallel?

 

[Nef]

With tesla packs, do not charge at 0°. Will ruin battery

 

[MazeVX]

Does it matter if Li-on are vertical or horizontal?
Does the charger need to be different if you wire the batteries in parallel?

I would not use Liion, they can explode if you don't use the right chemistry, it's a science on its own. As far as I know they are not available as blocks.
Lifepo4 is what you want and they are available as battery blocks with the right voltage. The charger needs to be a specific lifepo4 charger or need to be adjustable to the right "charging style" (don't know how it's called in English Ladekennlienie) I would recommend using it for auxiliary battery only.
Vertical or horizontal doesn't matter and 2 of the same lifepo4 can be charged or used in parallel.

I post a link to a sample Battery so you can what I'm talking about

https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/products/12v-lithium-battery-pack-powerbrick/40ah-12v-lithium-ion-battery-pack-powerbrick/

 

[titicaca]

For years i have been using a replacement Lithium-ION battery in my Harley Electraglide and BMW R1200GS and I have not had any issues.

I'm guessing you didn't ride way below 0C too often or at all. Not being able to recharge below freezing is a show-stopper to the idea for us in Alberta. But, a fantastic idea as a portable power pack, backup, jump-start, so think of it as something you bring indoors for storage or to recharge as part of your trip kit - it is so compact after all.

 

[Nef]

I guessing you didn't ride way below 0C too often or at all. Not being able to recharge below freezing is a show-stopper to the idea for us in Alberta. But, a fantastic idea as a portable power pack, backup, jump-start, so think of it as something you bring indoors for storage or to recharge as part of your trip kit - it is so compact after all.

Have you considered a heater, perhaps a coolant based one? Small like those for cooling a PC CPU or video card. Would circulate the hot fluid around the battery, kind of like the Tesla cars have.

 

[Fozzy325]

I have a great idea that will make millions or billions.. lol hahahaha

3 images of a mobile lithium battery,

Image 1 - Vehicle and home mounts with mobile battery
Image 2 - Home charging
Image 3 - Car charging and use

So when needed you could take the battery to the vehicle and just slide it in and clam it down. all other times the battery could sat at home warm
On the vehicle mount you could build in a heater sheath to keep it warm when the vehicle is running.

 

[MazeVX]

I'm guessing you didn't ride way below 0C too often or at all. Not being able to recharge below freezing is a show-stopper to the idea for us in Alberta. But, a fantastic idea as a portable power pack, backup, jump-start, so think of it as something you bring indoors for storage or to recharge as part of your trip kit - it is so compact after all.

Don't worry you can charge it just like agm... When it's really cold it's completely ineffective to charge no matter what battery you have.

 

[titicaca]

Don't worry you can charge it just like agm... When it's really cold it's completely ineffective to charge no matter what battery you have.

For a bit more explanation on lithium battery chemistry and why charging when cold is different and dangerous:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=3460507

 

[MazeVX]

For a bit more explanation on lithium battery chemistry and why charging when cold is different and dangerous:
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=3460507

But that's meant for LiIon like the quoted tesla batteries ... Lifepo4 specially the ones with ytrium can be charged down to
-40°C with reduced charge current.
Use of other batteries than lifepo4 is absolutely NOT recommended.
Look at the datasheets of the chosen battery for more specific information.