How to tick-off a trail leader

[OTH Overland]

When everyone has a chance to review and suggest edits to a trip BEFORE YOU LEAVE the end result is a trip that has fewer detours with folks who had a hand in the planning and are more eager to work collectively as a group.

One thing really grinds my gears as a trail leader:

Blatantly not following Tread Lightly principles. I have been with folks who know better but still break the principles. All I can figure is they are being pressured by influencers and advertising. It is sickening. As a Tread Trainer I take the opportunity to explain why the action is not appropriate, but humans generally don't like to be told they are wrong or be called out in front of others.​

Great Idea to get input on posted route prior to trip and incorporate into final version BEFORE departing, especially on small to medium sized group, Totally agree on the TL gripe!

 

[armyRN]

Sounds like overlanding with you guys would be “loads” of fun. I previously wanted to meet up with others that share my common interest. After reading this thread, think I’ll stick with solo.

Excellent! Know what you're getting into before you consider signing up. And if it isn't for you or not to your liking, then don't sign-up. Group trips aren't for everyone, or maybe sometimes but not for other trips. I enjoy group trips, but sometimes I just want to be out there on my own.

 

[armyRN]

Interesting read, and thanks to all that replied with insight and experiences. . . My wife and I typically do "solo" backcountry mountaineering, skiing, hiking, and vehicle exploring. As we get older, we have contemplated group trips to meet like-minded people, which was one of the biggest reasons we joined OB. However, I must say, after reading your posts, I am now reluctant. . . We may stick with "solo" adventures for now . . .

Hoka Hey!!!
Akicita


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The important thing is that you're getting out there and having adventures. Group trips aren't for everyone - sounds like you're used to going solo. Don't be afraid to join up with a group sometime though and see how it works for you. You might like it. Some folks do appreciate having some structure and knowing what to expect going into the group trip. I'd rather have just a couple folks join me who are "on board" than a dozen who are going to ultimately be causing issues and such (even if it is just whining).

 

[19mystic96]

Sounds like overlanding with you guys would be “loads” of fun. I previously wanted to meet up with others that share my common interest. After reading this thread, think I’ll stick with solo.

My thoughts exactly. Trips I go on are considered a vacation. There's no need for me to follow a strict schedule or speed. If I want to stop at my leisure or take a detour that I find interesting/fun then I will. Being stuck to a strict route or schedule doesn't sound like a good time to me. I'll just continue solo tripping or heading out with other buddies.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I really try and emphasize that we stick together (I truly believe in safety in numbers, especially when way off the beaten path). I put out on the OB Rally point list of rules & guidelines and such (call me a control freak or a drill sergeant if you want) that if you decide to "drop out", you're no longer considered "with the group". I'm not going to be your 911, I'm not going to go slow or take a long lunch break (etc.) so you can catch up. You know it up front what the expectations are. I don't always know where we'll be stopping for the night, etc. I've had trips where we've had to take a detour, and there was more than one option for the detour. Radios only have so much range, and forget about cell phone coverage where I tend to go.

If you decide to "drop out", you're on your own (good luck on your travels, group runs aren't for everyone, thanks for at least giving us a shot, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the trip). If you catch up later, then great! But I'm not going to add you to the things I'm concerned about while leading a group.

Unfortunately, if you decide to stop early, there may be others in the group that feel you shouldn't be there by yourself so now they might decide to stop early too. So now the group starts to possibly fracture, and the trail leader becomes the bad guy/control freak/whatever if they don't want us to stop now too (somebody's got to be in charge - are you now taking over?). You're possibly putting the trail leader in a bad position here. You're fracturing the group when you do this. Not cool in my opinion. Sorry. This thread is about how to tick off a trail leader - this is one way to do it. Not the way I want to run my trips, or to have to deal with. Of course, attending one of my trips (or any trip really on OB) is totally voluntary, and to a point you can do whatever you want (and at some point I might be happy to see someone leave). I've had folks drop out for various reasons, and I've picked up folks that were traveling solo who we met and they decided to join us for part of the trip.

And yeah; if you're not ready to leave at 0800 (we're not talking "my Jeep won't start" kinda scenario), we're leaving without you. Maybe it will motivate you to hustle and get going, and if you do catch up and join us, be ready the next morning.

Not to mention possible liability - waiver or not! - if something unfortunate were to befall someone who splintered off from your group, only to claim later to an attorney that you abandoned them, leaving them with a vehicle that's inoperative (flat with no or wrong size spare) and somewhat exposed because they couldn't get help

 

[armyRN]

Not to mention possible liability - waiver or not! - if something unfortunate were to befall someone who splintered off from your group, only to claim later to an attorney that you abandoned them, leaving them with a vehicle that's inoperative (flat with no or wrong size spare) and somewhat exposed because they couldn't get help

Yup. And that's why I try and put everything up front, so you fully know what you're getting into. Hopefully it weeds out folks that aren't like minded (and that's the intent - these kinda trips aren't for everyone and that's fine). Planning, organizing, and trying to run and lead a group is work for those of us doing it. And we don't get paid for it. We're trying to help get folks "out there" who otherwise wouldn't feel comfortable doing it solo or want to test the overlanding waters. Plus they're hoping to meet like-minded folks.

I've done some solo overlanding - it was fun, but it kinda scares me sometimes when I think of what would happen if something happened right there in the middle of nowhere. Do I try and walk-out (miles and miles and hopefully find help and leave my vehicle to the whims of vandals and folks with ill intent? Will it still be there & intact when I get back?). Do I stay with the vehicle and hope someone comes along in the next few days who is willing to help me? I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that. My organized trips are usually a weeklong at a minimum. On an organized group run, you might give up some flexibility on your part, but you gain safety in numbers among other benefits. Pick your poison. Know what you're getting into if you're considering an organized trip. Ask questions - on OB when I post a trip, we have a running thread where folks can ask questions and such if I haven't already put it out up-front.

On one of my last trips, we had a slowpoke (just wouldn't keep up intentionally - was ticking me off) in a very nice JL truck with a camper and on 37's. He was way in the back, and slit a sidewall. He was an older guy (late 60's at least?) and besides the fact his tires weighed a ton, he was not exactly in a spot conducive to changing out a flat. Fortunately for him he wasn't out of radio contact (yet), so the two vehicles in front of him (one might have been behind him) had to backtrack to where he was to help him change his flat tire. And it was a hard job for the three of them - he couldn't have changed it by himself. Those of us up front had to wait for quite a while for them to finally show up.

 

[MMc]

I've done some solo overlanding - it was fun, but it kinda scares me sometimes when I think of what would happen if something happened right there in the middle of nowhere. Do I try and walk-out (miles and miles and hopefully find help and leave my vehicle to the whims of vandals and folks with ill intent? Will it still be there & intact when I get back?). Do I stay with the vehicle and hope someone comes along in the next few days who is willing to help me? I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks that. My organized trips are usually a weeklong at a minimum. On an organized group run, you might give up some flexibility on your part, but you gain safety in numbers among other benefits. Pick your poison. Know what you're getting into if you're considering an organized trip. Ask questions - on OB when I post a trip, we have a running thread where folks can ask questions and such if I haven't already put it out up-front.

I travel solo in Baja almost monthly, a couple hundred miles of dirt road is normal. I try to keep the rig at 100% all the time because of risks. I have buried it and taken 12 hours to recover. I also have as many recovery stories as most here. I know the risks and chose to live with the the choices I make. I don't go with more than 1 other rig. Reading this thread convinces me why I don't travel with a groups, especially as a leader. I have the upmost respect for those that do

 

[DevilDodge]

only to claim later to an attorney

This is why I steer clear of group activities.

I appreciate a group that has rules and a plan. And some one that can lead enough to stick to them.

Always fun to see how diverse people's opinions are of how to do something.

Good stuff!

 

[ThundahBeagle]

This is why I steer clear of group activities.

I appreciate a group that has rules and a plan. And some one that can lead enough to stick to them.

Always fun to see how diverse people's opinions are of how to do something.

Good stuff!

Yeah, I just...a few years ago my girlfriend went to the Galapagos and Ecuador. The whole trip was planned out for them. They kinda had some time to themselves but also had an itinerary to follow. I'm sure if someone on that trip were "supposed to be" with the group at X time, but decided to swim with dolphins at the wrong spot and got bitten by a shark, they'd try to make a case.

I guess it's one thing if you lived in Ecuador and were around there all the time, you know what you are doing. A different situation if you signed on for a guided tour I guess.

 

[Tundracamper]

Not to mention possible liability - waiver or not! - if something unfortunate were to befall someone who splintered off from your group, only to claim later to an attorney that you abandoned them, leaving them with a vehicle that's inoperative (flat with no or wrong size spare) and somewhat exposed because they couldn't get help

That’s a great point. When one of those “whiners” has a major issue, any “leader” could be open to lawsuit. “They didn’t tell me that rock dropoff was that steep and I’d rip off an axle.” Just one more reason to not be a leader!

 

[armyRN]

Ok... we've kinda gotten sidetracked from the original intent of this thread, to it now becoming a solo vs. group trips debate. And I've fed into it too.

I think we can all agree not everyone is suited or wants to do a group trip. And that's fine - I'm not trying to talk anyone into doing something they don't want to do.

Not everyone wants to follow a timeline, a set departure time, and a set route, and a set of rules. Got it.

I don't need anyone else chiming in saying how they don't like rules, they prefer to go solo damn the possible consequences, etc. We've got it. Group trips aren't for you.

Not everyone can be like Dan Grec (I'm one of his patreons) and spend years doing solo overlanding trips.

This thread is for trail leaders or trip leaders to talk about what ticks them off when leading a group.

Let's get back on track.

 

[armyRN]

This article popped up recently. I thought it was interesting and appropriate.

Alpha, Bravo, Charlie: The ABCs of Overland Convoy Etiquette (expeditionportal.com)

 

[Advtres]

Good article - TY for sharing.

Full disclosure - I have been that whiner!! LOL!

Yet one thing I try to think ahead of the whining is this ( it is a work in progress, I promise I will get better!!:
Usually I do group trips because I am going to an area I have never been, and someone has been gracious enough to plan, organize and manage the trip.
I have the support, expertise, camaraderie and enjoyment of my friends during the adventure, and that is pretty special.
I do not have to worry about trip planning, routing, gas or anything else ( usually! LOL!)

SO!

I will be a good participant and I can always come back and explore.
So I am thankful that this person opened a new area up for me on my Map of Adventure so that I can experience it now and at my leisure another time.

FYI
I will note though that people are the Masters of their own experiences.
Honestly I respect people who say, you know, I will meet you guys at xyzzy campsite, or you know what I will catch up with you guys..
Yes I agree to everything that was said ( ie you left the pack! ) but I also respect our individuality and freedoms..

Sometimes there is just something cool, and we never know if we will pass this way again...

 

[danwyandt]

I read this somewhere about the Trail Boss.


A. The Trail Boss shall be responsible for the initial planning of the run, including but not limited to determining the routes to and from the run, places to stop for gas, ice, food, alcohol, ice cream and toilet paper while on the run, getting lost while on the trail, ensuring adequate potty stops and being blamed for unforeseen weather conditions. The Trail Boss shall also be assigned all verbal abuse from those following the Trail Boss, including but not limited to having his (or her) parentage status challenged, his (or her) sexual proclivities questioned, his (or her) fondness for barnyard animals suggested, his (or her) relative intelligence denigrated and his (or her) cognitive abilities questioned.
The Trail Boss shall also alert Those Following the Trail Boss and the Trail Butt of incoming or outgoing traffic, divots / ruts / challenging road conditions and cattle guards as necessary. The Trail Boss shall have the exclusive authority at appointing the Trail Butt. Monetary gifts, other gratuities and outright bribery of the Trail Boss for the position of Trail Butt is encouraged.

B. Those Following the Trail Boss shall be responsible for all verbal abuse directed at the Trail Boss and continued whining for the duration of the run. Those Following the Trail Boss shall also ensure that those who have not made it on the run will be talked about.

C. The Trail Butt shall be responsible for alerting the Trail Boss and Those Following the Trail Boss of any mishap along the trail, any mechanical breakdown of Those Following the Trail Boss, unscheduled potty stops made by Those Following the Trail Boss and making choo-choo train noises when necessary.

 

[Anak]

I read this somewhere about the Trail Boss.


A. The Trail Boss shall be responsible for the initial planning of the run, including but not limited to determining the routes to and from the run, places to stop for gas, ice, food, alcohol, ice cream and toilet paper while on the run, getting lost while on the trail, ensuring adequate potty stops and being blamed for unforeseen weather conditions. The Trail Boss shall also be assigned all verbal abuse from those following the Trail Boss, including but not limited to having his (or her) parentage status challenged, his (or her) sexual proclivities questioned, his (or her) fondness for barnyard animals suggested, his (or her) relative intelligence denigrated and his (or her) cognitive abilities questioned.
The Trail Boss shall also alert Those Following the Trail Boss and the Trail Butt of incoming or outgoing traffic, divots / ruts / challenging road conditions and cattle guards as necessary. The Trail Boss shall have the exclusive authority at appointing the Trail Butt. Monetary gifts, other gratuities and outright bribery of the Trail Boss for the position of Trail Butt is encouraged.

B. Those Following the Trail Boss shall be responsible for all verbal abuse directed at the Trail Boss and continued whining for the duration of the run. Those Following the Trail Boss shall also ensure that those who have not made it on the run will be talked about.

C. The Trail Butt shall be responsible for alerting the Trail Boss and Those Following the Trail Boss of any mishap along the trail, any mechanical breakdown of Those Following the Trail Boss, unscheduled potty stops made by Those Following the Trail Boss and making choo-choo train noises when necessary.

That is the amended bylaws of DR0NK OHV.

Happy to see it around.

 

[CR-Venturer]

Interesting discussion. I've planned and led two significant group expeditions so far, although with a small number of rigs on each trip, and all of them with friends of mine, not relative strangers. While leadership styles and number of rules might vary vs what armyRN does, I definitely think it's best to have things out in the open right up front so it's clear what people are getting into.

In my experience, speaking in very general terms so as not to possibly hurt anyone's feelings, it annoys me when someone doesn't have their kit squared away as they should have, especially if they have been advised about it early on and haven't chosen to address the problem. It can and often does come back to bite the group in the butt later on.

It might be something along the lines of "hey, this bolt on your spare tire carrier is loose, you should tighten it." and they don't, and it falls off and rolls down a mountain mid way in the trip. (not a specific event, just an example).

Another thing is people not communicating their needs/wants/desires early on BEFORE the trip, then complaining or making issues later. This hasn't been a big issue for my trips so far, thankfully, but I believe it's best to be completely open and lay it on the table when you're planning an adventure like this.

Another one is someone saying they want to go, participating in the planning and discussions over a long period, then forgetting to book the time off and missing the trip completely. More of a "what the heck, man?!" kind of feeling than anything.

 

[reaver]

I've really only led one large group run so far. We did the Idaho bdr last year, and had two rigs from Washington join us, along with another from Oregon. The other Idaho rig had to cut out early due to what ended up being strep throat.

I spent months planning the trip, figuring out gas stops (I have a 20 gallon tank, and get 8-12 mpg towing the trailer). We planned for 10 days on the trail, but didn't find out until we started that two of the rigs only had 5 days.

One of the rigs was having some major mechanical issues on the trip, which slowed ALOT of things down.

I think, going forward, for any open group trips I do, I'll have to do something similar to what @armyRN does by posting rules ahead of time, so that it sets expectations.

I learned a lot about planning group trips, and I think I'll keep it to smaller groups for the time being. I've only recently started doing solo trips, and that's a whole different ball of wax.

 

[rgallant]

@reaver leading a group is tough a common failing even by experienced people is forgetting to allow time for problems, vehicular or terrain. So on a 10 day trip have at least a day leeway, it surprising how much time even small things can eat up.

As to the guys who say they can only do 5 days you make it clear to them, that they need to plan their own route out or not come.

I did a lot of convoy escort on military exercises, you have no idea how many times I wanted to slap a capt or major for screwing up a simple night move. Driving with no lights and no NOD's was just a fact of life, and some units could not get organized to move out on time, were always stopping etc. I had 7 jeeps to herd them and cats would have been easier many times. Overland convoy's are so much easier, mostly.

 

[grubworm]

there is no need to get "ticked off" at people in circumstances like this...
just get a tube of super glue and patiently wait for them to go to sleep

 

[MidOH]

CA glue will give them to much of a processed taste when I grill them.