How to tick-off a trail leader

[armyRN]

Agree with all, except #2. If you schedule your roll out at 7:55, then roll out at 7:55. Screw the guy who overslept.

If I'm stopping early for the night, I'm stopping early for the night. You can carry on if you'd like. I'll catch up tomorrow, or I won't.

Unless it's some kind of weirdo hardcore trail, where we have to stick together or die. But then we agree to that, beforehand. My overlanding ain't usually like that. People come and go, as they please. They got the coordinates for the next campground.

I really try and emphasize that we stick together (I truly believe in safety in numbers, especially when way off the beaten path). I put out on the OB Rally point list of rules & guidelines and such (call me a control freak or a drill sergeant if you want) that if you decide to "drop out", you're no longer considered "with the group". I'm not going to be your 911, I'm not going to go slow or take a long lunch break (etc.) so you can catch up. You know it up front what the expectations are. I don't always know where we'll be stopping for the night, etc. I've had trips where we've had to take a detour, and there was more than one option for the detour. Radios only have so much range, and forget about cell phone coverage where I tend to go.

If you decide to "drop out", you're on your own (good luck on your travels, group runs aren't for everyone, thanks for at least giving us a shot, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the trip). If you catch up later, then great! But I'm not going to add you to the things I'm concerned about while leading a group.

Unfortunately, if you decide to stop early, there may be others in the group that feel you shouldn't be there by yourself so now they might decide to stop early too. So now the group starts to possibly fracture, and the trail leader becomes the bad guy/control freak/whatever if they don't want us to stop now too (somebody's got to be in charge - are you now taking over?). You're possibly putting the trail leader in a bad position here. You're fracturing the group when you do this. Not cool in my opinion. Sorry. This thread is about how to tick off a trail leader - this is one way to do it. Not the way I want to run my trips, or to have to deal with. Of course, attending one of my trips (or any trip really on OB) is totally voluntary, and to a point you can do whatever you want (and at some point I might be happy to see someone leave). I've had folks drop out for various reasons, and I've picked up folks that were traveling solo who we met and they decided to join us for part of the trip.

And yeah; if you're not ready to leave at 0800 (we're not talking "my Jeep won't start" kinda scenario), we're leaving without you. Maybe it will motivate you to hustle and get going, and if you do catch up and join us, be ready the next morning.

 

[rgallant]

Agree with all, except #2. If you schedule your roll out at 7:55, then roll out at 7:55. Screw the guy who overslept.

If I'm stopping early for the night, I'm stopping early for the night. You can carry on if you'd like. I'll catch up tomorrow, or I won't.

Unless it's some kind of weirdo hardcore trail, where we have to stick together or die. But then we agree to that, beforehand. My overlanding ain't usually like that. People come and go, as they please. They got the coordinates for the next campground.

The problem is that guy will always do that, and whine because no one else will. Generally, group runs tend to be for groups you know the drill and know when you have to be moving and when you will stop. Some leeway is always built in simply because stuff happens, people travel with small kids etc.

I have no patience for over-sleeping or hang overs you know when you have to get up so get up

 

[MidOH]

Fair enough. But it sure sounds a little like "camp Alcatraz ".

I'd lighten up a little if you're not in the desert. Maybe barbeque the whiny guy.

 

[smritte]

Personally I have had very few issues. The events would be the only time and those were mostly day runs. My long range trips, everyone is just happy to be there and I try to make it interesting. It may be because I have a somewhat strict requirement list which is pretty much based on well running rigs, safety and radio. On the other hand it could also be the threat of being dumped into a mine shaft. Not sure which.
I will say, I enjoy meeting new people and seeing all kinds of rigs. This is what its all about.

 

[ZombieCat]

Great write up, @armyRN! This sounds remarkably like being a hike/adventure travel leader. I can say from experience that these behaviors are beyond frustrating and make you think twice about leading events.
I’d suggest a few additions to #3:
1. Learn to use your equipment BEFORE the trip. You should know how to set up your tent, operate cooking gear, manage power sources, use your portable compressor, heck, change a tire! prior to signing up for a trail run.
2. Have the appropriate skills, knowledge and abilities (KSA) consistent with the trip requirements. Attempting a very technical trail (or extremely challenging trek) without meeting these requirements may hinder the entire group’s progress and cause frustration/resentment among the participants. This includes having the right equipment/clearance for the trail.
3. Don’t whine if the trip leader excludes you from the run due to any of the above. It’s difficult to both tell someone they aren’t up to snuff and to be the person receiving the news; both sides should try to be reasonable and understanding. Correct your deficiencies or choose a trip to which you/your rig are better suited.
I’ve taught adventure planning seminars and the first segment is devoted to the harmonious selection of participants, activities and destinations. After that it’s just basic logistics…

 

[smritte]

. Attempting a very technical trail (or extremely challenging trek) without meeting these requirements may hinder the entire group’s progress and cause frustration/resentment among the participants. This includes having the right equipment/clearance for the trail.

I have led runs where half the rigs didn't finish under their own power. They qualified for the run but things happen. A problem with excluding rigs that don't qualify to attend the run is, unless its on private land you cant ban them from following you. You hope the gate keeper stops them but you would be surprised how tenacious people can be. I wont muddy the thread with horror stories but some people over estimate their skill and their rigs capabilities. I'm just glad I don't have a rig that's real hard core any more.

 

[zgfiredude]

I totally depend and rely on my tailgunner. I can't see what's going on behind me, so I'm counting on him (or her) to be the eyes in the back of my head. I've had some excellent ones over the years - I got kinda spoiled sometimes. We work together as a team. One less thing for me to worry about when I know I've got a good tailgunner.

Tailgunner is a hard job! Patience and being on the same page with the leader is critical. Respect the Tailgunner!!

The sometimes forgotten thing is that the Tailgunner gets to deal with most or all of the "issues" that the folks in front of them encounter. Not so much on a 4x4 trip, but it can be physically challenging dealing with the "problems" in front of you, and then when you finally make it to the rest stop. lunch, whatever.....the rest of the group got their rest, lunch, whatever and are ready to GO....the poor folks at the back don't and just have to "keep up". This is where the relationship of the leader to the tailgunner is important. It's all about communication. Respect the work being done on your behalf and try to be helpful and supportive. It's not a race, it's a journey.....enjoy the journey.

 

[MOAK]

I don’t care for large groups at all. Over the past few years I’ve settled on no more than 6 vehicles and that includes me. I’ve only ever encountered one whiner. The other thing I’ve noticed, some people think these tours are “ all about the kids” or “ making memories”. Making memories should not be the goal. When that happens people are ultimately let down when the “manufactured memory” isn’t what they expected. A fond memory of an experience is and should be a by product of the whole experience. It becomes a fond memory by default. Kids? Cool, love em all. But the tour isn’t about making time to find and or go to a children’s attraction, it’s about the tour. Speaking of the tour, the last time out west we had a guy that kept pestering everyone about stopping at a hot springs for the day. After a couple of days I finally had to set him straight. We aren’t here for that, the nearest one is half a day off the trail. You live out here!

 

[armyRN]

Tailgunner is a hard job! Patience and being on the same page with the leader is critical. Respect the Tailgunner!!

The sometimes forgotten thing is that the Tailgunner gets to deal with most or all of the "issues" that the folks in front of them encounter. Not so much on a 4x4 trip, but it can be physically challenging dealing with the "problems" in front of you, and then when you finally make it to the rest stop. lunch, whatever.....the rest of the group got their rest, lunch, whatever and are ready to GO....the poor folks at the back don't and just have to "keep up". This is where the relationship of the leader to the tailgunner is important. It's all about communication. Respect the work being done on your behalf and try to be helpful and supportive. It's not a race, it's a journey.....enjoy the journey.

Yup - that's why it drives me crazy when folks are wanting to drive too slow (and I don't consider myself a fast overlanding driver). They figure if their vehicle has a granny gear, they're going to use it - forgetting the fact they're the weak link in the group and are holding things up. Probably something I need to emphasize more strongly leading up to the trip, and at the initial and morning drivers' meetings.

Sometimes I call those folks the "LCD" - Lowest Common Denominator.

I just want to have fun, and have others with me having fun. Usually folks are just happy to be there on the overlanding adventure, but all it takes is one or two to spoil it for me and others in the group.

 

[armyRN]

I have led runs where half the rigs didn't finish under their own power. They qualified for the run but things happen. A problem with excluding rigs that don't qualify to attend the run is, unless its on private land you cant ban them from following you. You hope the gate keeper stops them but you would be surprised how tenacious people can be. I wont muddy the thread with horror stories but some people over estimate their skill and their rigs capabilities. I'm just glad I don't have a rig that's real hard core any more.

Fortunately the overlanding trips I organize and lead average a week or more in length, and aren't that technically challenging (we're not rock crawling). More along the lines of the TAT or a BDR run. But I do put out vehicle and gear requirements (along with convoy procedures, etc.) ahead of time on the Rally Point page. I'm really big on not damaging vehicles since we're in it for the long haul (trail pinstriping doesn't count as damage).

 

[smritte]

The point there was more about excluding rigs. This was based on a comment somewhere in the thread. My trips pretty much align with yours in the way of difficulty now. When I sold my last rock rig, I had also stopped attending events. Now its just weekend runs up to a few multi day a year.

 

[Tundracamper]

Sounds like overlanding with you guys would be “loads” of fun. I previously wanted to meet up with others that share my common interest. After reading this thread, think I’ll stick with solo.

 

[Akicita]

Interesting read, and thanks to all that replied with insight and experiences. . . My wife and I typically do "solo" backcountry mountaineering, skiing, hiking, and vehicle exploring. As we get older, we have contemplated group trips to meet like-minded people, which was one of the biggest reasons we joined OB. However, I must say, after reading your posts, I am now reluctant. . . We may stick with "solo" adventures for now . . .

Hoka Hey!!!
Akicita

 

[FishFam_logs]

I do believe this is why I have shied away from almost every gathering.
I suck with rules and have never really made a plan/schedule. I can understand some amount of necessity in large groups of unknown people. But if I got sent an excel spreadsheet on rules on a trip I didn't pay to attend I would likely bow out immediately.
Something about grown individuals needing this much hand holding just seems wrong. Maybe I'm just turning into that old curmudgeon that gives everyone evil stares off his front porch

Also, as a family with young kids. We stop a lot. If my girls see something out the window they want to explore, we do that! That in itself makes us fly solo much of the time, or at least with similar folks.

Cheers

 

[zgfiredude]

I think it's just that different folks come with vastly different expectations. My experience is that the folks that are very new to off roading just need a little guidance and patience and in general the 4x4 crowd is much more self sufficient than the adventure motorcycle crowd (oddly enough). I led and coordinated multiple motorcycle journeys and the number of folks that show up with a brand new bike and ZERO idea of how to ride off pavement (or on for that matter) is mind boggling. A lot of people just show up expecting a guided tour, and a catered lunch. The 4x4 crowd is not as bad.

It's just good to have a different mind set on a group event. Relax and enjoy the company, the journey, and be flexible. It's just the world these days where entitlement creeps into lots of areas where it shouldn't. Groups are good, smaller groups are generally better.

 

[OTH Overland]

I don't think anyone is intending to create a blanket set of rules to be applied to any and all trips, especially with the intent of striping out all the fun and creating a dictator led march. Rather they are a set of guidelines that can and should be dug thru and selected for the particular adventure at hand. A weekend trip with a few rigs during fair conditions is generally easy to manage and impromptu schedule / route changes often have little impact on the outcome of the trip, However a two week trip to Alaska in the winter is a different story where multiple delays, route changes or vehicle issues can result into not being able to complete the trip, fuel and supply shortages etc even with a small group of rigs. Weather, trails conditions and random issues are enough of an issue without adding in being unprepared or a fragmented group. If I am going on a trip like that, as a general participant and if I feel the leader has not properly prepared and set guidelines for rig standards etc, I am not going, if it is a weekend trip, there are far less worries and it's only a couple of days if it does not go well. I tend to like the solo trips or ones with just a couple of rigs because there is more flexibility and group decisions on the fly are much easier, plus you tend to know each other well and how each will react to a situation, but I also enjoy leading the occasional larger trips and helping to get folks new to this out in the backcountry and building their skills. I have also met some great people on group trips that have become part of my goto list of people I look to head out with as a small group.

 

[Tundracamper]

I think it's just that different folks come with vastly different expectations. My experience is that the folks that are very new to off roading just need a little guidance and patience and in general the 4x4 crowd is much more self sufficient than the adventure motorcycle crowd (oddly enough).

This may be more true than you realize. We have lots of friends that talk up all sorts of travel plans. Thing is, they never make any reservations. I tell my wife, no reservations, no trip (for trips involving air travel or hotels, not overlanding). I think people like to talk, but when it comes to “doing,” many don’t know how.

 

[rgallant]

With group trips and planning it really comes down to keeping things moving. Most of our 2 day club trips cover between 250 to 400 miles of back country, the large majority of it well out of cell range. You need a plan and you need folks to stick together, to give a worst-case example a jeep group I ran into while I was travelling solo had 2 trucks go off on their own and were going to meetup around 6:00 Pm. When I hit their main group, it was 7:30 and they had a 2-hour drive back to where the 2 trucks left the group as they had not showed up. We left 3 trucks at the camp,1 with a good radio and headed out, make things short we found both trucks well and truly bogged almost 4 hours later. There was no safe way to do a night recovery so all but two people went back to their camp and I stayed with them at the bogged vehicles. Thier whole group ended trip ended as a result, as by the time they got the trucks clear they had to head for home.

Made no difference to my trip as I was traveling solo, I did some photography and fishing between helping with recovery prep.

You cannot just ignore people who do side trips away from the group and leave if they do not show up so they need to stick together, unless they are only traveling so far with the group heading off on their own of course.

 

[Anak]

One of the more fun trips The Varmints and I have been on was the trip where the trail boss called in sick the day before the trip. He shared his trip plan and wished us all a good trip, with regrets that he couldn't be part of it.

We all knew right then "We're gonna get lost".

And we did.

And we coped.

And we found out that a drone is actually a pretty useful piece of equipment to have in your kit. It is a good way to inspect that questionable trail and find out that it is a dead end, we'll go the other way.

And next year that trail boss got to lead the run he intended to lead, and it was a completely different trip.

It was all good.

That said, some folks probably would not have been comfortable with that situation. We knew going in that it would be a fluster-cluck, and we were ready for that ride. Someone else would have been less than pleased with the thought that we would end up camping who-knows-where and end up trying to get back to civilization from who-knows-where.

It is not that the one person is any better than the other. We each have unique risk profiles. The one person is comfortable with a risk in one area, the other not so much. But there is likely another area where the situation is reversed. And that is precisely why individuals need to have the freedom to make their own choices. Anytime anyone tries to impose a "one size fits all" policy they have just stomped all over half the people.

Don't be a control freak. Don't be bothered when other folks make choices you yourself are not comfortable making. Let folks be individuals. That is what made this country great.

 

[KonzaLander]

Initially when reading @armyRN's list here and in his Rally Point I felt the rules were overwhelming and over reaching. However, once I stopped and remembered the logistics of leading a group (over 5 rigs is a big group for me) the rules and expectations make sense. I can't fathom trying to organize a week long trip with more than 5 rigs. The structure would help keep the trip running smoothly. With a small group you are certainly allowed more flexibility, but the guy who can't manage to wake up, complete a bowel movement and get his gear loaded in a reasonable amount of time can still wreck the plans you have for the day.

I am the trail leader 99% of the time for groups of 2-5 simply because nobody else wants to put a plan together. Since I generally know who will, or would like to, go on a trip I always start a shared google map with the proposed route, sites, camps, etc identified. It is awesome when somebody else proposes a stop or something to see along the way. When everyone has a chance to review and suggest edits to a trip BEFORE YOU LEAVE the end result is a trip that has fewer detours with folks who had a hand in the planning and are more eager to work collectively as a group.

One thing really grinds my gears as a trail leader:

Blatantly not following Tread Lightly principles. I have been with folks who know better but still break the principles. All I can figure is they are being pressured by influencers and advertising. It is sickening. As a Tread Trainer I take the opportunity to explain why the action is not appropriate, but humans generally don't like to be told they are wrong or be called out in front of others.​