Government plans increase in alcohol content in gasoline ?

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Has anyone heard anything about the governments plans to increase the alcohol content to 15% soon. I don't think it will do our engines any good personally but maybe some engineer out in OB land can tell us what he thinks. I know the manufactures started hardening the valve seats on engines back in the late or mid 70's to allow for unleaded gas but I don't know that much alcohol in gas. I do know it produces a lot of water in the system which could hurt vehicles that siy for long periods of time without being drive. I don't drive my off road vehicles that much between outings so I'm a bit worried if the story is true.

 

[Dilldog]

A little background here, ethanol is added to our gasoline as a cheap cleaner burning alternative to octane boosting chemicals. Since the ethanol has more resistance to combustion and less BTUs than the petroleum base it does a very good job boosting the anti knock index. Also as late as the 1940s there were gas stations in the mid west that only sold 100% ethanol gas. Early Ford engines were designed to run on this as our nations infrastructure hadnt developed to the point where petroleum based fuel was readily available, but most small towns had the ability to distill alcohol for fuel. Also leaded fuel had little to do with valve seat switch in older engines. Engines began to transition to hardened seats to increase longevity and reliability. Also this was made possible by advances in machining technology. Lead was added to fuel as a way to up the ani knock index, then we found out how terrible an idea it was to burn lead, so we switched over to ethanol, which was not quite as cheap, but much cleaner and did a better job.
About any gasoline engine made in the last 20 odd years and intended to be sold the US is designed to run on up to 15% ethanol (and honestly it wont effect the older engines either, just make sure your fuel system is rebuilt with viton lines and gaskets, and run more spark advance). The biggest concern with high alcohol contents in gas is that the alcohol will separate and attract water causing corrosion if left to sit static for too long (typically more than 30 days). The easy fix for this is before letting the rig sit treat it with Stabil and top off the tank, making sure to run the engine long enough to ensure the Stabil treated fuel reaches the carb or injectors. This is what I did and never had issues with my motorcycles. I have however heard of some European plastics not handling ethanol well at all. The Italian MFG. of motorcycle tanks Acerbis has problems (or at least used to) with their plastic fuel tanks getting soft and distorting due to corn alcohols. Im not sure if other European MFGs have similar issues.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

A little background here, ethanol is added to our gasoline as a cheap cleaner burning alternative to octane boosting chemicals. Since the ethanol has more resistance to combustion and less BTUs than the petroleum base it does a very good job boosting the anti knock index. Also as late as the 1940s there were gas stations in the mid west that only sold 100% ethanol gas. Early Ford engines were designed to run on this as our nations infrastructure hadnt developed to the point where petroleum based fuel was readily available, but most small towns had the ability to distill alcohol for fuel. Also leaded fuel had little to do with valve seat switch in older engines. Engines began to transition to hardened seats to increase longevity and reliability. Also this was made possible by advances in machining technology. Lead was added to fuel as a way to up the ani knock index, then we found out how terrible an idea it was to burn lead, so we switched over to ethanol, which was not quite as cheap, but much cleaner and did a better job.
About any gasoline engine made in the last 20 odd years and intended to be sold the US is designed to run on up to 15% ethanol (and honestly it wont effect the older engines either, just make sure your fuel system is rebuilt with viton lines and gaskets, and run more spark advance). The biggest concern with high alcohol contents in gas is that the alcohol will separate and attract water causing corrosion if left to sit static for too long (typically more than 30 days). The easy fix for this is before letting the rig sit treat it with Stabil and top off the tank, making sure to run the engine long enough to ensure the Stabil treated fuel reaches the carb or injectors. This is what I did and never had issues with my motorcycles. I have however heard of some European plastics not handling ethanol well at all. The Italian MFG. of motorcycle tanks Acerbis has problems (or at least used to) with their plastic fuel tanks getting soft and distorting due to corn alcohols. Im not sure if other European MFGs have similar issues.

Thank you for this quality information. It confirmed my concerns about harmful water in ethanol. I have used Stable in my lawn mowers and weed eaters for years but found draining the gas tanks a better method for me. I cant very well do that to a car (I have four). I'm not happy with the idea of having to top off three of the four cars or having to spend money and time just to make the government happy with lower emissions or whatever they are concerned with.

 

[grubworm]

I know I can sure tell a difference using ethanol in small engines where fuel lines and primer bulbs especially seem to break down and crack ALOT faster than with non-ethanol gas...

 

[Anak]

It looks like this is mostly a midwest thing, and they generally run 15% alcohol in the winter and 10% in the summer, but are waiving the volatility rules and allowing 15% in the summer as well for the benefit of the corn farmers.

I don't like the extra alcohol in fuel. If your fuel system is all stainless it should be fine, but mild steel is too vulnerable. And it certainly isn't good for small engines. Fortunately for me I live in a place where ethanol-free fuel is available. That is what I buy for my mowers. I drive the cars enough that my fuel doesn't usually have time to get old, so the I still use the normal blends there, but if they persist in ramping up the use of alcohol I may reconsider that.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I know I can sure tell a difference using ethanol in small engines where fuel lines and primer bulbs especially seem to break down and crack ALOT faster than with non-ethanol gas...

You made my point. It is not good for engine components which are far more expensive to repair than lawn mowers etc. Thanks for that, that has also been my experience. I'm wondering if it will effect all states or just states (or counties-perishes) that have high pollution. I live in an area that doesn't even require vehicle emission inspections. A lot of the government crap gives the oil companies justification for the high prices. I don't want California type regulations put on all the states but that's what it looks like the politicians want. The few who rule the domain with their mouths !

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

It looks like this is mostly a midwest thing, and they generally run 15% alcohol in the winter and 10% in the summer, but are waiving the volatility rules and allowing 15% in the summer as well for the benefit of the corn farmers.

I don't like the extra alcohol in fuel. If your fuel system is all stainless it should be fine, but mild steel is too vulnerable. And it certainly isn't good for small engines. Fortunately for me I live in a place where ethanol-free fuel is available. That is what I buy for my mowers. I drive the cars enough that my fuel doesn't usually have time to get old, so the I still use the normal blends there, but if they persist in ramping up the use of alcohol I may reconsider that.

Where is Sandy eggo ? I just told another OB'er that different states offered no alcohol gas but I couldn't tell him where.

 

[Billiebob]

You made my point. It is not good for engine components which are far more expensive to repair than lawn mowers etc.

I'm wondering how much of this is regional. My boat outboard is 50 years old, my lawnmower etc 15 years old. I've never bothered with Stabil thing and never had issues. My lawnmower which runs every week all summer has never even had the plug changed. Starts 3rd pull every spring. Same with my snowblower.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

I'm wondering how much of this is regional. My boat outboard is 50 years old, my lawnmower etc 15 years old. I've never bothered with Stabil thing and never had issues. My lawnmower which runs every week all summer has never even had the plug changed. Starts 3rd pull every spring. Same with my snowblower.

Are you in a heavily populated area or rural ? I think it does make a difference but check out your gas pump for alcohol content and let us know. My lawnmower runs great too, in the summer. It's the dormant season we are talking about. If we don't leave gas in the system there isn't a real problem. It's when you leave gas in the system that is harmful because of the alcoholic water content and chemical additives in the gas.

 

[old_man]

Why waste it in gasoline. If the government wants us to all be happy, just give us the extra alcohol.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Why waste it in gasoline. If the government wants us to all be happy, just give us the extra alcohol.

That's called HAPPY TRAILS TO YOU !!

 

[Roam_CO85]

Why waste it in gasoline. If the government wants us to all be happy, just give us the extra alcohol.

I second that!! Haha lil more corn whiskey!

 

[Roam_CO85]

You dont see it to much in this area but we have a station in fort collins that sells straight unleaded. Use to have a few about 10 years ago. In wyoming there are some and utah. Ive found most of the maverick stations will have no ethanol gas. Like diesel in the winter around here. A good mix of of #2 and #1 diesel. Up north they run alot of just plain # 1 in things. Noticed down in the southern states that 15% ethanol has a bigger foot print

 

[Anak]

Where is Sandy eggo ? I just told another OB'er that different states offered no alcohol gas but I couldn't tell him where.

As another poster said, find a Maverick station and odds are they will have ethanol free.

Philips 66 is another one.

 

[Roam_CO85]

Sandy eggo? Im assuming thats short for San Diego CA

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

You dont see it to much in this area but we have a station in fort collins that sells straight unleaded. Use to have a few about 10 years ago. In wyoming there are some and utah. Ive found most of the maverick stations will have no ethanol gas. Like diesel in the winter around here. A good mix of of #2 and #1 diesel. Up north they run alot of just plain # 1 in things. Noticed down in the southern states that 15% ethanol has a bigger foot print

Thanks for that input, your making my point. Not all states require it presently and why would the government push to make all states buy that junk.

 

[smritte]

Here's a bit more info. When they state that, alcohol lower's emissions, that data was based on later model carburetors and very early fuel injection. There is no benefit from running it in a newer model vehicle. This is something some of the guys at my shop have researched extensively. They have gone as far as done their own testing over the last few years. Not to prove or disprove but, to see if it's true. So far, the less alcohol percentage, the better the emissions and overall efficiency.
Alcohol does slow down the burn (increase octane) but the problems outweigh the benefits. If you need to add it in to control detonation, you probably want to rethink your build or your running variable boost and need to run it when your out racing.
It seems this is more of a political deal than anything.

 

[Dilldog]

Thank you for this quality information. It confirmed my concerns about harmful water in ethanol. I have used Stable in my lawn mowers and weed eaters for years but found draining the gas tanks a better method for me. I cant very well do that to a car (I have four). I'm not happy with the idea of having to top off three of the four cars or having to spend money and time just to make the government happy with lower emissions or whatever they are concerned with.

The problem with draining the tanks is it allows condensation to form inside thus giving the same result. A full tank of stabilized fuel will actually keep water out of the tank.

 

[smritte]

Early Ford engines were designed to run on this as our nations infrastructure hadnt developed to the point where petroleum based fuel was readily available, but most small towns had the ability to distill alcohol for fuel.

Fun fact on this.
Alcohol was being voted in as the national fuel. US had a grain surplus and as was stated above, small towns could produce their own fuel if needed. Rockefeller didn't like this. His interests were oil based. He got a bunch of his senator buddies to make it illegal. Boom..... Prohibition. Rockefeller now pushes gasoline as the national fuel.
Best way to make money. Make your competition illegal.

Before this happened, a guy named Diesel make an engine to replace the steam engine. Its a multi fuel engine designed to run on whale oil, lamp oil, alcohol, kerosene and anything you can make combust. Rockefeller had stake in a bunch of oil wells. His fuel was dirty, smelly and smoked. No one wanted it. he refines it a little and markets it as Diesel Fuel. Using his connections with the rail industry, starts shipping it out to major cities as fast as he can. You replace your steam engine and you think you need his fuel too. Again, the engine was designed to run anything available. This was the small towns didn't need to clear cut trees or import charcoal for the steam engines.
Saw a special on this on Discovery a while back.

 

[old_man]

Pretty much all cars in Brazil run on pure alcohol.