F150/250 for Overland rig?
- Thread starter OverlandDeparture
- Start date
Autism Family Travels
Rank IV
Enthusiast III
Thanks Capitan obvious. Ha ha. I didn't say i can't. I said it's a freakin pain in the ass. Plus, here in NL, they have no clue how to lay out a parking lot property.
No random preconcieved biases. I lived 10 years North of 60 and a cold snap of 40 below could last 6 weeks. The only way a diesel was reliable was if it ran 24/7. And a lot of them did that in Yellowknife. But you could shut off a gas engine overnight. And that was 20 years ago when diesels were bulletproof.
Todays diesels..... my buddy owns a Transit Mix Company. After Macks he only buys the 3500 series trucks for work. In the past 5 years hes had them all. First a Duramax, it developed problems every 6 months. At one point it was in the dealership 6 weeks waiting for parts so he bought a Cummins..... and chipped it. Man he regrets that decision it never ran right and the dealership cancelled his warranty so it got sold and he bought Ford.... the 6.0L.... and did all the "upgrades" which should have been "warranty".... but it never ran reliably so he bought a 3500 series Chevy with a gas engine. Hes had that at least 2 trouble free years. While it is "his" truck it sees multiple drivers and it often tows a tandem duals 5th wheel trailer. 2 years old, it has 36K miles, 60K kms driven hard. He'll never buy another diesel pickup.
So rather than accusing others of being biased and lacking knowledge, check the mirror. While I agree the modern gas engine is equally complex, the manufacturers seem to have figured out how to keep them reliable. The forums on RVers with diesels are full of trouble shooting threads... like "Help my diesel is going into limp mode every 15 miles" and even the dealership mechanics don't have a clue. Never see that with a gas engine. Todays diesels have nothing in common with the bulletproof 12V or 7.3L of 25 years ago.
But don't take my word for it, read the threads on diesel problems. And if you are overlanding in Africa, South America, read the threads on diesel fuel vs the modern North American diesel engine.
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Talking payload, a base F150 has room for 5 passengers and a few suitcases just like a Crown Vic.
An F250 has room for 5 passengers plus a box full of camping gear.
And those are facts, the F150 is designed to replace the passenger car and deliver all the passenger car attributes like a cushy ride while giving suburbia a crewcab family station wagon. Great vehicles but easily and often overloaded. If you are shopping used..... It'll a rare F150 with a payload upgrade option..... Even shopping new an F150 on the dealer lot with a max payload or towing option will be scarce. Any F250 will be a better choice.
Thank god the minivan is almost extinct.
Advocate I
Sorry, but facts would include data and sources. So, let's play with some numbers...
For the F150, let's use a brand new F150 Supercrew, 4x4, 6.5' bed (fleetside) XLT with the 3.5 EcoBoost as I suspect that'd be a pretty typical Overland/DD type spec. Ford gives GVWR options up to 7850 lbs, I'd assume any Overlander picks the highest GVWR available. Ford gives a curb weight in this spec of 4913, which "should" leave 2,937 lbs cargo carrying capacity (CCC). However, Ford actually rates the Payload in this spec at "only" 2620 lbs - so we'll use their number (all stats from: https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/models/f150-xlt/ ). The thing has a pretty amazing 375/470 HP/TQ, and the new 10-speed auto... pretty slick. So, your argument is that there is only enough headroom in the Payload for "5 passengers and a few suitcases", correct? Keep in mind I'm not using a "cheater" regular cab, 2wd, base-model here... we're talking a mid-range trim, 4x4, Supercrew w/ the TTV6 etc. Let's say you pack pretty heavy and "a couple of suitcases" are 200 lbs. That leaves 2420 lbs left in payload. Using your example, the "5 passengers" would need to weigh 484 lbs each for your assertion to be true. Being more realistic, and saying the passengers average 200 lbs (which is probably still on the high-side for the average family of 5 with younger kids etc... I guess we're talking about a family where they have 3 teenage boys that are offensive linemen at High School or something). In this (much more reasonable) scenario, you're left with 1420lbs of Payload. That's a pretty big Overlanding pack-out (especially considering I've already factored in 200lbs of suitcases). Now, let's take another run of it with an average weight of 128 lbs, probably more realistic if they have younger kids, perhaps still high (250lbs Dad, 150lbs Mom, 80 lbs kid x 3 = 640lbs / 5 = 128lbs average), and let's forget about those 200lbs of suitcases we started with, to see the true weight carrying capacity left in the Payload of a Supercrew, 4x4, 3.5L Ecoboost, 6.5, mid-level-trim F150... we have 2620 - the family (560) to leave 2,060 lbs - that's right: OVER A TON OF PAYLOAD LEFT FOR OVERLAND GEAR AFTER THE FAMILY'S WEIGHT IS ACCOUNTED FOR.
Now, THOSE are the facts.
The F150 was NOT meant to replace the passenger car completely. In Ford's case the Escape, Edge, Flex and even Explorer share that job. Sure, lots of people that would have driven a sedan or station wagon in the 60s/70s (or even 80s) now drive a F150, and maybe tow a boat to the lake with it which they would have towed with the old Ranch Wagon in '62, so there is overlap. But I see that more as people being 'forced' to use sedans and station wagons for "truck jobs" back then because trucks were so abysmal to DD, vs. trucks like the F150 being "designed to replace the passenger car."
Also, for fun, let's look at the last of the Crown Vics (you'll see in my previous post I was clearly talking about current production, but like I said, just for fun)... They had a curb weight of around 4100lbs at the end of their run, but it's actually very hard to find GVWR on them. At best, they made 239/281 HP/TQ and put it down through a 4-speed auto. Again, it's hard to find good data on GVWR on it, but what I did find was generally ~5,600 lbs. So, 5600 - 4100 leaves just 1500 lbs. Using your 484lbs passengers, sadly the Crown Vic can only carry 3 of them, with only 48lbs left for suitcases. Going to the other extreme, and using my hypothetical 640lbs family you're left with 860lbs, honestly not bad - but nothing like the 2,060 lbs of the F150. And the 'Vic doesn't have 4x4, or twin turbos, or a pickup box, etc.
They're just not the same thing.
-TJ
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Advocate I
Fair 'nough... if you're living in 40-below weather, considerations are certainly different. I suspect that less than 0.0000001% of this forum live where it's continually 40-below, so my advice was more tailored to the "average person" rather than the extremes. BTW, 20 years ago diesels were bullet-proof? In the 2000 model year GM still was using the 6.5 "Detroit" (a real shame that name got sullied with it) diesel. I don't know anybody that calls the 6.2/6.5 Detroits "bulletproof." The D'max came out in '01... (though, you could argue '01 D'max trucks started showing up about this time in 2000).
Your buddy and his anecdotal stories are fun, but they don't really mean anything. Though, we can all agree 6.0/6.4 PSDs are garbage and should be avoided at any cost. For what it's worth, I checked the mirror as per your suggestion, and yup I still have an ugly mug and I still have a '11 Silverado 2500 HD w/ the D'max/Allison that I bought new, and now have ~120k miles on. At least half of its miles, probably much more have been towing (I've always had other cars while I owned it). For many years (including this year, until last month when I went back to an RV) I towed 15k+ lbs (probably closer to 17k lbs) 5th wheels with it (yes, the weight police will point out that I was way over GVWR on the truck with the 3,300+ lbs pin-weight of my last 5'er). It's gone deep, deep into the woods of Idaho hours and hours from cell signal, electricity etc. and I've always trusted it. It's recovered broken sand rails way out in the sand dunes of Glamis with temps approaching 100+ dealing with huge dunes. It's also just putted along the freeway with one of those 5'ers behind it crossing Nevada with cruise control set at 75 MPH in 110+ ambient temps. It's never given me one mechanical problem (of course, now it's going to break down tomorrow). The biggest issue it had was a failed TCM last year - but that has nothing to do with it being a diesel, and even that wouldn't have left me stranded as it cleared up with a few key cycles (I had it towed anyway, because I have a ton of free tows... but if I was in the woods I would have been able to get out). A modern gasser has as many, or more electronic control systems. STILL, that's just an anecdote and doesn't really mean jack.
The reason RV forums are mostly full of diesel-owners with issues is...
...RV forums are mostly full of diesel owners. How many gassers do you really see towing travel trailers and such? Not a lot. I know TONS of people who have tried to go that route (even the venerable 3.5L EcoBoost) and they ALL end up in a diesel sooner or later. So sure, you get more noise about issues on the RV forums related to diesels, because there are probably 100 diesel truck owners on the RV forums for every 1 gasser owner. Go poke around the EcoBoost forums, you'll see nothing is truly trouble free.
12Vs are pretty "bullet proof" until the Killer Dowel Pin gets them. Google it... you'll find a zillllllllllllllllllion write-ups, fixes, etc. It's far worse than a little electrical issue, the dowel pin drops in the timing gears, frags that, and the rest of the motor eats itself alive. It's complete scrap after that. Then the almighty 7.3... do you know anybody who's had one that hasn't had cam position sensor, EBPV, IPR, ICP or problems with the UVCH (under-the-valve-cover-harness)? I still think both 12V and 7.3s a GREAT engines and I'd take either in a friggin' heartbeat over a 6.0 or 6.4 PSD. But pobody is nerfect and all mechanical things have problems.
-TJ
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Advocate I
Resale doesn't make up for jack? I just don't understand that stance. I still get offers on my truck on a regular basis of 35k+ and it's 10 years old with 120k miles. But, I'll probably keep it "forever." So sure, I paid $52k instead of about $45k for a gasser... but at 120k miles and 10 years of the use my truck has has, a gasser would be DONE. Fuel filters? I have an adapter and run cheap CAT filters. Oil changes? Sure, they're expensive because I run Amsoil, but I do them way less often. We use Amsoil in the Trackhawk... it's just as much.
"Avoid diesel at all costs" has to be one of the silliest things I've seen on this forum...
-TJ
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I just traded in a Ford 6.2 with 200,000 miles with only rusty exhaust as an issue. No other repairs. Engine ran perfectly new. Actually faster than my Cummins. I'd have no worries about running that engine another 100,000.
Will a DPF last that long? Because the DPF on my Cummins costs more than a 6.2 long block, installed.
Will a DPF last that long? Because the DPF on my Cummins costs more than a 6.2 long block, installed.
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Advocate I
Okie dokie, diesels are garbage, and not suitable for hard work. I guess the entire trucking, heavy equipment, generator, pump etc. industries have it wrong.
Have a great day.
-TJ
Have a great day.
-TJ
Is any of that overlanding?
I'm a diesel tech, keep in mind. Anywhere from 20 to 4000 kilowatts. There's a huge swing in medium duty trucks or less, to gasoline engines. That's why the PSI/GM 8.8 and Ford 7.3 exists. Tier V was a huge mistake.
Modern consumer grade diesels have nothing in common with the big boys.
I'm a diesel tech, keep in mind. Anywhere from 20 to 4000 kilowatts. There's a huge swing in medium duty trucks or less, to gasoline engines. That's why the PSI/GM 8.8 and Ford 7.3 exists. Tier V was a huge mistake.
Modern consumer grade diesels have nothing in common with the big boys.
Advocate I
Globally, I think you'll find most Overlanders are diesel.
No thoughts on the numbers I presented?
-TJ
No thoughts on the numbers I presented?
-TJ
Contributor III
We ran diesels in our company fleet vehicles. Chevy ford Dodge, doesn't matter maintenance is expensive. Most were retired due to cost to repair being more than blue book value. Needless to say I'd say 99 percent of the fleet is gas engines now.
Don't get me wrong I love diesels.
Just not in consumer grade momo trucks. If you like the idea of paying for my kids college tuition, I'll surely appreciate it. But you could just cut out the middle man, and pay me directly. Save yourself the trouble.
I don't care about the globe, I don't care what a hobo on the sidewalk offered for your truck. This ain't a pissing match. Stick to Glamis if that's your deal.
If you can't handle a master tech telling you to avoid modern little diesels, then that's on you. DPF, DEF, EGR, ain't ready for primetime yet. Avoid the diesel Nissan Titan, ZR2, F150, especially.
Gas is booming big. If GM, Dodge, Ford can't find ways to reduce diesel downtime, they're in serious trouble.
Just not in consumer grade momo trucks. If you like the idea of paying for my kids college tuition, I'll surely appreciate it. But you could just cut out the middle man, and pay me directly. Save yourself the trouble.
I don't care about the globe, I don't care what a hobo on the sidewalk offered for your truck. This ain't a pissing match. Stick to Glamis if that's your deal.
If you can't handle a master tech telling you to avoid modern little diesels, then that's on you. DPF, DEF, EGR, ain't ready for primetime yet. Avoid the diesel Nissan Titan, ZR2, F150, especially.
Gas is booming big. If GM, Dodge, Ford can't find ways to reduce diesel downtime, they're in serious trouble.
Advocate I
You can't handle anyone disagreeing with you. This is an Overlanding forum, not the gospel according to MidOH.
This started with you claiming a F150 can only handle 5 passengers and a couple suitcases. I irrefutably proved you were wrong, so you've ignored that and made this somehow about us.
You were demonstrably wrong. It happens.
We get it, gas 3/4 ton trucks are the only ones worth owning. Cool.
-TJ
Advocate I
Got a nice sale on Airdogs and cp4 to 3 conversions. While supplies last, and while my backyard wire harness squirrels are all dead.
I accept kidneys, small children, weeks on Epstein Island, along with American Express.
I accept kidneys, small children, weeks on Epstein Island, along with American Express.
Advocate I
L
Anyway, sorry for confusing you with the other posts earlier. It's probably time I let this thread get back on track.
-TJ
Lol. I replaced my CP4 at around 100k as preventive maintenance... but I've also had a lift pump and filtration on it since about 5k.
Anyway, sorry for confusing you with the other posts earlier. It's probably time I let this thread get back on track.
-TJ
