Emergency 2 way communication

[ThundahBeagle]

4 hour drive up to the spot vs 20 minute chopper. The SOS from a SPOT sends out SAR, SAR didn’t know to bring medivac, repellers, litter crew… ect ect… all of this is part of the required request for equipment we ask someone calling in for help, along with the best coordinates for evac (both ambulance, helicopters, bush plane, ect).

20 - minute chopper? Sir, the flight crew has to scramble and do a pre-flight check before they get off the ground, if there is even one available. It would be extremely rare to get a chopper on site so fast in a remote area, especially where no organized helipad is available. SAR may or may not be government or law enforcement based but they often at least First Responder trained. Usually BLS in there, and sometimes you'll find some ALS.

Whoever calls out this "20-minute chopper" of yours needs to be recognized EMS and have the authority to communicate directly with the hospital Medical Director or E/R doctor.

And you are talking about wood cutters in what I believe is 3,500 feet or more of hilly, woody terrain. Somewhere in there, an appropriate landing pad has to be found or cleared.

It's not always a quick operation to get a chopper out, and that determination is not made by laymen, is what I am saying.
4 hours drive might be 200 miles - I know I'm making some presumptions there...a medflight does what 155 knots? So maybe 170 mph or so. So that flight sounds more like an hour than 20 minutes. Again, I'm no expert, though.

Dont get me wrong. I agree with you that proper, speedy medical care is very important and with a bleeding head injury time is of the essence. I just disagree with you that from the time a call is made from the scene, to chopper on site time, is usually not going to be 20 minutes unless there is a chopper just returned from service, just cleaned and sanitized, and a fresh crew waiting. And a landing pad cleared in a hilly, mountainous, forest-strewn area.

There have actually been studies that indicate it is possible that, once called to the scene where ALS is summoned, there is a higher risk of patient death. The question has been, is that due to the more serious nature of an injury that requirs ALS, or is that due to ALS spending more precious time on scene with the patient before transporting to an appropriate facility?

I do like the idea of a radio. I also like the idea of a PLB. Seems smart to me. So smart that our local fisherman fleets carry an ocean-going type. Because a vessel sinking could all happen so fast that a radio becomes a moot (mute, in this case) point

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I'm hoping someone who is a helo pilot or med flight or something can chime in to tell us from thier perspective

 

[RJ Howell]

First I'd like folks to understand that the situation we were in was not Life/Death, just medical attention and a vehicle that wasn't going anywhere without assistance. Hitting the PANIC button and having SAR's come out was not what was needed. I was after a way to communicate to bring wanted/needed assistance.

We just got back from another short adventure and asked both NFCG host's and a Ranger what would have been the best scenario to get help? What was awful was not gave an answer that worked. I was within range easily of the CG Host and could have radioed him if I then knew the frequency. The Ranger told me she didn't know about me legally calling out on their frequency. I told her, it's not... but in a Life/Death situation and getting someone assistance... I'll take the fine!

I do see HAM as what could just be the choice 'I' will make. I doubt a HAM unit would broadcast on the NF frequency as my handheld will, but I don't know this yet and plan to carry this little unit with me as well.

Love all the feedback! Some I think went a bit of the basic track, yet good info pertaining to what was said.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

First I'd like folks to understand that the situation we were in was not Life/Death, just medical attention and a vehicle that wasn't going anywhere without assistance. Hitting the PANIC button and having SAR's come out was not what was needed...

...Love all the feedback! Some I think went a bit of the basic track, yet good info pertaining to what was said.

Two things:
1) Glad it wasnt life or death. I've read articles where inexperienced drivers have hit thier PLB because they had a flat tire. Nothing to be done there except a fine, maybe.

2) I cant imagine any of the feedback would have gone off the track, otherwise it would have been deleted by a higher power, ha ha, so for now, looks like we are good

 

[RJ Howell]

Two things:
1) Glad it wasnt life or death. I've read articles where inexperienced drivers have hit thier PLB because they had a flat tire. Nothing to be done there except a fine, maybe.

2) I cant imagine any of the feedback would have gone off the track, otherwise it would have been deleted by a higher power, ha ha, so for now, looks like we are good

Off track went towards the suggestions beyond the original posting and why. Did no imply anything needed deleting. I did say even those posts had validity according to what was said. All was welcomed and received as posters intended.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

Did make me think more seriously about a PLB, though.

 

[old_man]

Radio communications is sketchy at best in the mountains. More power rarely helps. The best bet is satellite.

I love the gal that ran off the road and down a mountain in Rocky Mtn Park. She was there for several days. She tried to sue the park, saying it was a government responsibility and her "right" to have cell phone coverage....in a wilderness area. The moral of this story is watch the damn'd road and don't drive off a cliff and try and blame someone else.

 

[Downs]

20 - minute chopper? Sir, the flight crew has to scramble and do a pre-flight check before they get off the ground, if there is even one available. It would be extremely rare to get a chopper on site so fast in a remote area, especially where no organized helipad is available. SAR may or may not be government or law enforcement based but they often at least First Responder trained. Usually BLS in there, and sometimes you'll find some ALS.

Whoever calls out this "20-minute chopper" of yours needs to be recognized EMS and have the authority to communicate directly with the hospital Medical Director or E/R doctor.

And you are talking about wood cutters in what I believe is 3,500 feet or more of hilly, woody terrain. Somewhere in there, an appropriate landing pad has to be found or cleared.

It's not always a quick operation to get a chopper out, and that determination is not made by laymen, is what I am saying.
4 hours drive might be 200 miles - I know I'm making some presumptions there...a medflight does what 155 knots? So maybe 170 mph or so. So that flight sounds more like an hour than 20 minutes. Again, I'm no expert, though.

Dont get me wrong. I agree with you that proper, speedy medical care is very important and with a bleeding head injury time is of the essence. I just disagree with you that from the time a call is made from the scene, to chopper on site time, is usually not going to be 20 minutes unless there is a chopper just returned from service, just cleaned and sanitized, and a fresh crew waiting. And a landing pad cleared in a hilly, mountainous, forest-strewn area.

There have actually been studies that indicate it is possible that, once called to the scene where ALS is summoned, there is a higher risk of patient death. The question has been, is that due to the more serious nature of an injury that requirs ALS, or is that due to ALS spending more precious time on scene with the patient before transporting to an appropriate facility?

I do like the idea of a radio. I also like the idea of a PLB. Seems smart to me. So smart that our local fisherman fleets carry an ocean-going type. Because a vessel sinking could all happen so fast that a radio becomes a moot (mute, in this case) point

Even in a large metro area where there are multiple helicopters within a short distance calling for a medical helicopter is done very rarely. Unless the pt is trapped I'm going to get them to a hospital before the flight crew even gets off the ground. Even in rural areas it's not a quick deal and there's pre setup areas for medical helicopters to meet up with ambulances. And they sure aren't launching a bird based on the say so of some unknown civilian on a radio. The situation with the saw was a lose lose situation for the guy involved. They aren't launching air med based on some unknown person's say so which means someone with some authority needs to get on scene which takes time.

It wouldn't have mattered PLB or Radio that guy probably wouldn't have made it as either one launches the same response.

I get that HF radios and M Rose would love for every one to have their higher level licenses but like it or not HAM radio especially at that level is a very niche hobby that most are never going to get into or even have any interest in. A PLB cost 230 dollars and you pull a cover and hit a button.

 

[M Rose]

Radio communications is sketchy at best in the mountains. More power rarely helps. The best bet is satellite.

I love the gal that ran off the road and down a mountain in Rocky Mtn Park. She was there for several days. She tried to sue the park, saying it was a government responsibility and her "right" to have cell phone coverage....in a wilderness area. The moral of this story is watch the damn'd road and don't drive off a cliff and try and blame someone else.

Sketchy at best? 1000 QSO in 24 hours in the mountains on 70cm-160m ranging from 1/4 mile to a crossed the gloab tells me this isn’t true.

 

[ThundahBeagle]

I can see the value in what @ M Rose is saying. Not every situation rises to the level of a balls-to-the-wall SAR/EMS/ Med Flight response. Sometimes it's just a minor emergency and explaining g to someone for a minute would help. But I also like what Kent and Downs are saying for that time you absolutely, positively have to get help right away. Right now all I have is cellphone, FRS, CB, and whatever my GPS will do, if anything.

Like I said I'm rethinking PLB. We hike in the Whites often. Thank God none of us has been hurt beyond making it back under our own power

 

[ChadHahn]

That's why I'm also an advocate of ham. At least around here, there are dozens and dozens of repeaters. I have all the repeaters in my state programmed into my radio. I also carry a hand held with the repeaters programmed into it. I am also able to use my mobile unit as a cross band repeater if needed. Also, with APRS and smsgte, I can send text messages to friends, to either let them know I'm alright or need help.

 

[Downs]

APRS sounds good on paper till you get away from places that have digipeaters. I've played with APRS a lot in my area and in one of the areas I frequent the most (western Arkansas and Eastern Oklahoma around the Ouchiatas) and there are huge dead areas around and in the Ouchiatas. I've found that if I don't have cell signal I'll probably not be in an area where I can get to an APRS digipeater anyway. That's not to say it's not a useful tool but it pales in comparison to something like SPOT or InReach if you are looking to send short text messages. And has the advantage that the person replying to you doesn't have to be a licensed operator either.

HAM is a great tool to have on hand. But I think we as a community need to realize that it appeals to a very niche group of people and while it would be great if we could convince everyone to get on board with it, it's probaby not going to happen. I think with the fee adjustments, it'll only get worse. It's one of the reasons I stopped pushing for HAM so much with my local Jeep group and instead pushed for GMRS/FRS. It's much more likely I'll have a much higher percentage of people who are willing to buy FRS radios at the very least and possibly spend the money/time on a GMRS license vs a HAM license.

 

[DRAX]

Not sure if this was understood/mentioned, but a Garmin inReach isn't a PLB. It's a 2-way satellite communication device whereas a PLB is a one-way, low-power beacon that simply sends out an SOS. The inReach requires a subscription, the PLB doesn't. The inReach Mini is relatively inexpensive itself, the PLB is a little more money. The inReach has multiple purposes, the PLB only has a single purpose.

Here's an article comparing them. My wife has an inReach Mini and it's a cool device, makes tracking and checking in a breeze to let people know you're OK. The only negative is the battery life, if you're in a spot with poor satellite coverage the battery will get sucked down in short order as it repeatedly attempts to sync/update your location.

How to Choose PLBs and Satellite Messengers | REI Co-op

Learn the differences between a personal locator beacon (PLB) and satellite messenger. Discusses signals, GPS, messaging and subscription fees.

www.rei.com

 

[Flipper]

If you had your General License for amateur radio you would know that any of the five 60m frequencies are monitored 24/7 for emergency situations. 20m, 40m and 80m hold emergency nets 24 hours a day at the top of each hour… to break a net just cal “Breaker” and they will give you priority to relay your information.
As for exact location, a lot of HT’s (not Baofeng) have gps built in.

Several years ago, a few people were up wood cutting just outside of Baker City, Oregon when a saw kicked back and cut the guy real good. They had an inreach device, the first people on screen were the Baker County Sheriff and a deputy. It was 4 hours beforelife flight was called and landed… a radio would have gotten the correct responders to the location the first time… needless to say the guy died because the wrong people showed up. Voice trumps text 9 out of 10 times.

I do. I’ll be sure to schedule my emergency at the top of the hour. I will stick with my ACR PLB and Global Rescue while you spin the dial and search for help. I’m talking PLB not In-reach. BIG difference. One more issue: how many overlanders have a $1000 HF rig in the vehicle?

 

[ChadHahn]

APRS sounds good on paper till you get away from places that have digipeaters. I've played with APRS a lot in my area and in one of the areas I frequent the most (western Arkansas and Eastern Oklahoma around the Ouchiatas) and there are huge dead areas around and in the Ouchiatas. I've found that if I don't have cell signal I'll probably not be in an area where I can get to an APRS digipeater anyway. That's not to say it's not a useful tool but it pales in comparison to something like SPOT or InReach if you are looking to send short text messages. And has the advantage that the person replying to you doesn't have to be a licensed operator either.

HAM is a great tool to have on hand. But I think we as a community need to realize that it appeals to a very niche group of people and while it would be great if we could convince everyone to get on board with it, it's probaby not going to happen. I think with the fee adjustments, it'll only get worse. It's one of the reasons I stopped pushing for HAM so much with my local Jeep group and instead pushed for GMRS/FRS. It's much more likely I'll have a much higher percentage of people who are willing to buy FRS radios at the very least and possibly spend the money/time on a GMRS license vs a HAM license.

I'm in the desert southwest and it's hard to be out of range of a repeater. I had change the settings for receiving beacons because I was getting them from across the state. Of course it's easier to be in range of a repeater when they are on top of 10,000 foot high mountains.

 

[old_man]

The problem in Colorado is that you are typically in a canyon or down low. The repeaters are rarely even close to line of site which is commonly around a half mile. If you can get to the top of a mountain, ham works pretty good but there are lots of areas with zero coverage.

Terrain means that even satellite has limited coverage in much of the area I frequent. You have to wait for a satellite to go overhead.

 

[M Rose]

I do. I’ll be sure to schedule my emergency at the top of the hour. I will stick with my ACR PLB and Global Rescue while you spin the dial and search for help. I’m talking PLB not In-reach. BIG difference. One more issue: how many overlanders have a $1000 HF rig in the vehicle?

My cheap HF rig cost $250, but then again I built it myself… a good mobile HF rig starts out at less than $500.00 for a prebuilt radio. Check out the Xeigo G-90. I personally run a Icom IC-7100 all band all mode radio. They are running $750 right now.

As for spinning the dial, that’s what memories are for. I program the EMS nets to my Hf memory banks along with a note for times of net. As for the Net starting at the top of the hour… nets usually last a minimum of one hour. Columbia Basin Net runs about 9-10 hours… starting at 10:00 am and usually closing around 8:00 pm pacific time. Now I know this a pacific coast Net, but I also check into EMS nets from Colorado, Texas, Kansas, Florida, Connecticut, and New York on a regular basis from my vehicle.