Electric overlanding

[DintDobbs]

So much hostility toward EV'S. I'm not a fan for the environmental reasons, but seriously, give it some time to advance. It's like how we look at Thomas Edison's relatively crude brilliance, and apply the same concepts in modern technology to day. These electric cars could be the future, or they could be just another trend that washes out, like they always have. Now we have Uncle Sam threatening to take away our toys as an incentive to make EV's work this time.

Electric overlanding could happen. Range is a problem now, but suppose that a properly-thought rig could carry spare batteries, like we carry spare gas cans. I know the tech now looks ridiculous, but compare the 1st-gen Army jeeps to the modern Wranglers, and consider that after 80 years of development, the mechanics underneath modern 4x4s are largely the same as 80 years ago. The new ones just use slightly different means of accomplishing the same mechanical tasks.

So, let the EV's grow. Electric overlanding will never be feasible if people don't insist on advancing the tech.

 

[DosTacos]

Second life battery is a fairy tale, can't believe people believe this.

Curious, what's fairy tale about it. I work in this field and see it every day. Companies like Spiers New Technologies recycle used EV batteries into second life applications.
If there's something I am missing I'd be interested in learning.

 

[tjZ06]

So much hostility toward EV'S. I'm not a fan for the environmental reasons, but seriously, give it some time to advance. It's like how we look at Thomas Edison's relatively crude brilliance, and apply the same concepts in modern technology to day. These electric cars could be the future, or they could be just another trend that washes out, like they always have. Now we have Uncle Sam threatening to take away our toys as an incentive to make EV's work this time.

Electric overlanding could happen. Range is a problem now, but suppose that a properly-thought rig could carry spare batteries, like we carry spare gas cans. I know the tech now looks ridiculous, but compare the 1st-gen Army jeeps to the modern Wranglers, and consider that after 80 years of development, the mechanics underneath modern 4x4s are largely the same as 80 years ago. The new ones just use slightly different means of accomplishing the same mechanical tasks.

So, let the EV's grow. Electric overlanding will never be feasible if people don't insist on advancing the tech.

I used to be anti-electric in general, probably just because I've been a life-long hot rod guy. ~6mo of borrowing a buddy's Model 3 Performance certainly changed my mind some. That said, I've done the math in another thread on this forum and EV Overlanding is a long, long way off. Solar panel efficiency could reach 100% (vs. current 20% tops) and you'd still need many, many times the surface area of a vehicle to recharge in any reasonable amount of time... not to mention a lot of Overlanding is done in the woods w/o direct sun intentionally. Battery and EV motor tech will need to come a long, long way and a person will need to know the limitations and work around them (like staying in one spot for a few days to charge) but it'll happen.

-TJ

 

[DintDobbs]

@tjZ06 True! Today's long way off is tomorrow's learning to walk, next year's learning to run, and then they're grown up before you know it. Give it a few years, people will find some way to do whatever they put their minds to. Being logical and being practical were thrown out the window with EV's when the government stepped in, now people have moved past that and are making it happen with what we've got.

Theoretically, the prospect of EV overlanding could be an excellent way to preserve our sport/hobby/lifestyle and we could hide our gas-guzzling dirt launchers behind the pretty smiling face of an "environmentally friendly" solar-powered hippie van. Then we will be represented in the media as heroes, for using clean energy to go out and pick up litter and trash with our vegan rescue dogs.

I think the amount of societal pressures that will be removed from us will be a good thing, once the EPA and its alphabet soup friends start viewing overlanding as a means of preserving the environment. If it takes EV's to flip that switch, I am all in!

 

[MidOH]

It would be cool as heck to have an Outdoor RV toy hauler with most of the roof as a solar panel, and a pair of KTM electric dirtbikes in the back.

Less maintenance, is a big selling point. Bikes require constant maintenance, it's their biggest downfall. (aside from death by dismemberment)

 

[MazeVX]

Curious, what's fairy tale about it. I work in this field and see it every day. Companies like Spiers New Technologies recycle used EV batteries into second life applications.
If there's something I am missing I'd be interested in learning.

I'm somewhat involved in the the build and development of the battery housings, we know what it takes to separate the cells.
To be legal in Europe the housing must be close to indestructible.

Separate cells then test them and combine them new... It takes so much effort and time that a second life cost more then new.
Now sure I don't know what others do but that's what we have seen and what is required here.
We also talked to a battery manufacturer and they said that it is not possible to do it because it's not financially efficient. A second life solar storage would be 30% more expensive with second life cells.

Now again, if you or the company you are working for found a way I'm glad it's working.

Oh and the company I'm working for makes more money with EVs than with normal cars so neither my job nor money is threatened by it.

 

[MOAK]

I am 100% on board with electric vehicles for daily driving, but I don't think we are quite there with range for overlanding. One also need to consider that in both hot and cold weather battery range will be reduced. Thats OK if you just need 20 miles worth to get to and from work, but could be a HUGE issue if off highway...

Agreed. EVs will make great commuter vehicles for people living in the burbs. However, as we live in a semi-rural area we have a RAV4 hybrid on order and that will serve our purposes very well. Great for trips to visit family in RI, SC and OH and great for bopping around our side of the county. On the eastern seaboard, timing is everything and I’ve no desire to add another 3 hours or more to our 9 hour drive to SC. Overlanding in an EV? Weight & range are the two biggest issues that may be insolvable with the current technology. 10 years from now? EVs may become as passe’ as pagers & blackberries.

 

[orange01z28]

That thing looks like it would high center on a speed bump!

Kinda like every Rivian i've seen

 

[DosTacos]

That thing looks like it would high center on a speed bump!

Kinda like every Rivian i've seen

Funny considering that Rivian's come with larger stock tires than jeeps and have better clearance

 

[John and Mandi]

It's way off. Just watch the Long Way Up. They struggled with electric motorcycles and Rivians WITH corporate support. Anyone with a keen eye will notice the diesel truck hauling the generator with them. Unfortunately the series became about the struggles of trying to run electric vehicles over the beauty and experience of Latin America, before the idiotic bus build in Mexico.

In regards to solar, the overlanders that have tried to solve the A/C power requirements with solar have come up with all kinds of additional sliding panel configurations. The ridiculous part is in many places in Latin America where electricity is available, it's about $5 extra to run an A/C. In our 7 years, we maybe would have benefitted from having an A/C about 30 times...most of those due to bugs and not the heat itself. We have seen a habitation with no windows so in that situation an A/C would be required. Instead of spending thousands of dollars for additional solar it would be smarter to install a generator.

Neither is up to the task if one's requirements are above minimum.

 

[orange01z28]

Funny considering that Rivian's come with larger stock tires than jeeps and have better clearance

Do they lower when they park or something?

Every one i've seen has the wheels tucked like a lowered sports car

Even if it had better nominal ground clearance than a stock Jeep Sport there's zero room for articulation

 

[DosTacos]

Do they lower when they park or something?

Every one i've seen has the wheels tucked like a lowered sports car

Even if it had better nominal ground clearance than a stock Jeep Sport there's zero room for articulation

That's a fair opinion to have if you've only seen them parked. When they are not in Off Road mode, putting the vehicle in park lowers it to less than 8" from the ground (sport mode height). However, when you go offroading, the suspension raises to give you 15" of clearance with a flat, armored underbody with no differential to bang on rocks. With over 835 horsepower and 900+ ft lbs of torque, it's a beast offroad. Motortrend actually did a pretty good writeup on the suspension and articulation. 2022 Rivian R1T: How Its Suspension Makes It the McLaren of Off-Roaders
Here's a pic from this past weekend at Hidden Falls Adventure Park.

 

[DosTacos]

I'm somewhat involved in the the build and development of the battery housings, we know what it takes to separate the cells.
To be legal in Europe the housing must be close to indestructible.

Separate cells then test them and combine them new... It takes so much effort and time that a second life cost more then new.
Now sure I don't know what others do but that's what we have seen and what is required here.
We also talked to a battery manufacturer and they said that it is not possible to do it because it's not financially efficient. A second life solar storage would be 30% more expensive with second life cells.

Now again, if you or the company you are working for found a way I'm glad it's working.

Oh and the company I'm working for makes more money with EVs than with normal cars so neither my job nor money is threatened by it.

Thanks for that insight. You are correct that it's difficult to disassemble the packs. Along with logistics and grading, it's one of the largest cost drivers. Fortunately new technologies are in the works that will help improve this (LFP, solid-state, etc.) and improved methodologies for packaging as well as disassembly are helping drive down the cost. We saw a bunch of that at the recent CES show in Las Vegas. Some companies are already making this possible but it needs to scale significantly given the rate of EV growth. I think we're going to see a lot of improvement in the years to come.

 

[MazeVX]

Thanks for that insight. You are correct that it's difficult to disassemble the packs. Along with logistics and grading, it's one of the largest cost drivers. Fortunately new technologies are in the works that will help improve this (LFP, solid-state, etc.) and improved methodologies for packaging as well as disassembly are helping drive down the cost. We saw a bunch of that at the recent CES show in Las Vegas. Some companies are already making this possible but it needs to scale significantly given the rate of EV growth. I think we're going to see a lot of improvement in the years to come.

For sure, this segment will see a lot of improvement and it must see that. Otherwise we will run into troubles way worse than crude oil exploitation...

We are responsible for the joining technology of aluminum and composite mixed built battery boxes for some known vehicle manufacturers and basically every manufacturer is a customer with different volumes, including Tesla, Nio, BYD, Fisker and all the well known old brands.
Knowing how strong the joints needed to be and how much we had to punch in to achieve the goal makes me feel bad for the person who is trying to separate that again some day.
But other manufacturers have different stuff that might be easier.

 

[P8trit]

Joe Rogan: “EV’s Are A Disaster". Will Electric Vehicles Be Around For The Long Term? - YouTube

 

[DosTacos]

Joe Rogan: “EV’s Are A Disaster". Will Electric Vehicles Be Around For The Long Term? - YouTube

If we tried to maintain the exact same battery tech for the next 50yrs, this guy might be right. However, battery tech is advancing quickly, improving novel methodologies for mineral extraction, increasing density and range. Is it perfect today? Not by a long shot but it's getting better.

I'm sure early gas powered vehicles faced similar naysayers from the horse and buggy industry. Horses are more efficient. Horses don't break down. You don't have gas pumps in the mountains or open ranges, so how are you going to power your fancy engines up there? Naturally asperated engines fail at high altitudes, Cars cost 10x as much as a horse, and the list goes on and on. Electric Vehicles are still early and we're learning a lot but I can confidently say, they aren't going away, as much as it might pain some folks to hear.

As an aside, this is source is hilarious considering JR drives a Tesla

 

[P8trit]

Batteries are worthless if the grid can't support them.

 

[DintDobbs]

@P8trit True, but as @DosTacos said, people said the same thing about automobiles themselves, back in the horsedrawn carriage days. Automobiles were slow, clunky, unreliable, and gasoline stations were few, far between, and unrefined.

It took 150 years for the gas-powered car to get where it is today, and the industry has had ups and downs through the decades.

Electric road vehicles have taken a long, hard trip to catch on. Consider that fully electric road cars have been on and off the scene since long before gasoline-powered cars became the transportation norm, and novel introductions have been made in every generation since. Never have they been practical until recently.

Like it or don't, the grid is going to take the strain, and somebody somewhere is going to find a way to make it work - whether that means more efficient vehicles, or just building more environment-polluting energy facilities. The EPA don't give half a dog pile either way.

 

[DintDobbs]

Nevertheless, the fact that companies are actually entertaining the idea of electric overlanding vehicles should be somewhat reassuring to the haters of electric road cars. It means that an effort is being made to bring the sport/hobby/lifestyle into the next generation, and ensure that we have the option to continue even IF we have to use electric vehicles.

Regardless of how logical, reliable, safe, or environmentally friendly they may or may not be. The EPA doesn't care what you do as long as it doesn't touch the pavement.

 

[leeloo]

I own a 4xe, not an EV, but it offers me a glimpse of what is to come. And I don't like it.
Right now, if you do not charge at home, there is no cost advantage when running on gas vs electricity. Vehicles are more expensive, a lot heavier. I don't think people really appreciate the scale. It takes a mindboggling amount of materials they require and we do not even have plans to scale up. Literally mountains will have to be erased to come up up with them, and we already see, the price of materials required is not going down as predicted. Mining and manufacturing is not scaling like a tech company. heavier vehicles will degrade the roads faster, you will go trough many more tires.. many things that are not taken in the account. Might not seem a thing now, but imagine in 2030 you will only buy EV.
I don't think the tech is there yet to replace all vehicles with EV. We are far away from that. . This will fade when the cost will rise. Petrol vehicles were effective and developed fast because they were cost effective and afordable.. Government will cut subsidies pretty soon.
I am afraid it will be like it was with diesel vehicles in Europe. Buy diesel the government said.. and now they are banning it in most cities..
As things are right now in Europe at lest, EV 's are just a tax on poor people..