Are newer vehicles preventing you from choosing them for overlanding due to complexity?

[luchaDor]

Yep, I had a brand new 2021 vehicle...I quickly learned that you're no longer in charge of the vehicle. It is constantly making decisions about how you drive the vehicle and I didn't like that at all. Software updates, nannies galore...and I honestly really liked it. I sold it off to Vroom for a nice profit and picked up a nice FJ Cruiser. Simple & reliable vehicle and it does exactly what I tell it to...not the other way around.

 

[Alanymarce]

Yep, I had a brand new 2021 vehicle...I quickly learned that you're no longer in charge of the vehicle. It is constantly making decisions about how you drive the vehicle and I didn't like that at all. Software updates, nannies galore...and I honestly really liked it. I sold it off to Vroom for a nice profit and picked up a nice FJ Cruiser. Simple & reliable vehicle and it does exactly what I tell it to...not the other way around.

Interesting point - I guess it depends on the vehicle. We rented a Mercedes C-class for a wander in Central Europe last month and found that while it does have an amazing portfolio of toys, warnings, and tricks the driver stays in control all the time.

 

[leeloo]

Yes.

I do not like the integrated systems. I have read of situations such as the ABS system triggering a fault and then the computer will not allow you to shift into 4wd. That is totally unacceptable in my book. I have also read of folks who have had their computer go into some sort of failure mode that cannot be handled by a code reader, but rather must be addressed by a factory/dealership interface. That is also totally unacceptable.

I like my '96 XJ. From my experience with carburetors I do appreciated the merits of fuel injection, both for reasons of fuel slosh and for altitude compensation. And that is as modern as I am inclined to go. I do not have any desire for any of the newer features. They just look like failure modes to me.

However, it should be noted that I do my own work on my vehicle. I think most folks would have problems trying to maintain that which I maintain. I carry tools and spare parts. I have replaced my CPS (crankshaft position sensor) at the side of the highway. I have replaced my alternator in the driveway of a friend, 1,000 miles from home. I will also note that neither of those failures came with advance warning, and either of those failures could happen to a newer vehicle.

All choices come with their pros and cons, and every individual has a different risk threshold. Everyone needs to make their own decision.

That is not true, they go in to 4wd fine. You get some warnings like TC is disabled, or some other safety system is not working , cruise control might not work, but 4wd is fine, including on the newest Defender.
Yes your dash will be like a xmas tree, but you will get there.

On some very specific vehicles and situations like Landrovers and others that have full air suspention, a failed sensor might stop you from reaching off road height. Will this ruin your trip ? sure. Like any breakdown, either on a new of old vehicle.

Old vehicles they are fine, if don't have 2 left hands and do the work, overall TCO for sure is lower. It is a lot more budget friendly.
Are they superior on trail ? Not really. Statistically 100 % they will fail more often. There are limited repairs you can do on a trail, and the limit is not if the vehicle is new or old, is what you can carry as spare parts, access, tools, knowledge.
Can you wait for parts longer on newer vehicles ? For sure.
I have a wrangler 4xe. There are some parts specific to this model that you can wait for months. The plug in battery has a coolant heating element that can fail . You can wait 3 months for it, even more. Or the battery coolant pump, same thing. But I can still drive it and use it, just not in pure EV mode. That means I will not be stranded.
99 % of the problems it has are common Wrangler issues. Most of the issues that 4xe has are not from the new tech, but from the old one.
This old vs new debate is nothing new. I am old enough to remember when the tubeless tires showed up. OMG, you can't fix them on the trail .. they are so expensive, they are crap, an invention to waste our money. The fact that you could lower pressures transformed the 4x4 world, one of the 2 most significant progress in off road since the 70's . And everybody hated them when they were new.


The problem with new vehicles and tech is the policy of automakers, not that the tech is new. They heard that Data is the new gold, so now they are geared towards colleting as much as possible. They also limit access to tech data by exploiting loopholes in the regulation, or making it as hard as possible to get to it. in Europe is a lot worse than in US from this point of view.
I will never own a tesla, not because it is bad or is new tech, but because of Tesla's attitude and support towards supplying parts for 3'rd party shops and the non-existent aftermarket parts.
On the opposite side you have Ineos Grenadier -who is giving free access to manuals and parts to anyone for free. So no problem owning a new one, you can repair it yourself and what you ca repair on and off trails is you and what can carry as parts.

 

[KonzaLander]

This question is complicated. The answer will depend a lot on the mechanical aptitude of the individual, the general consensus of the vehicle manufactures reliability and how well the vehicle was/is maintained. Computer controlled vehicles seem to be more reliable for a longer period of time. I don't think you can argue that. The 'fear' is that the computer will freak out and cause a failure when the mechanics of a system are actually fine.

When thinking about this question I looked inward, to my garage, and thought of two typical trips I would take. However, I do not have a "modern" vehicle to even draw perspective from. Why? I don't want a 'connected' car that some whizz kid could potentially manipulate remotely. I know I lost faith in the new technology when my old 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee displayed "Service 4WD System" when I tried to put it in 4-Lo at the base of a beautiful trail 800 miles from home... That said, my overlanding vehicle is a 1999 Land Cruiser for most of the same reasons everybody has posted above.

Exhibit A: One week adventure motorcycle trip. Two bike choices; 1978 Yamaha DT250E or a 2017 Yamaha WR250R. Both bikes are meticulously maintained and run perfect. What bike would I choose for a one week trip? Easy, the 2017 with electric start, fuel injection and a modern suspension.​

Exhibit B: One month overland trip. Two vehicle choices; 1966 Chevrolet K20 or 2016 Toyota Land Cruiser. Both vehicles are meticulously maintained and run perfect. Which vehicle would I choose for a one month trip? Easy, the 2016 with a well insulated cabin, air conditioning, air bags, no points ignition since it has fuel injection and modern suspension. Although taking the old Chevrolet Pickup would certainly be fun, I would have to be in a very specific state of mind to want to do the trip.​

I think most of us feel more comfortable with a solid computer controlled fuel injection system versus a well tuned carburetor. These fuel injection systems are only one broken solder joint or water leak away from leaving you stranded, yet we trust it without giving it a second thought. Toss in a collision avoidance system and a transfer case selector on a touch screen and most of us pause, then say, "no, it's too complicated". I feel the same way. But why? I suspect we are waiting for enough time to pass for the newer technology to 'prove' itself before relying on it in the middle of nowhere. This is why most of us seem to drive OBDII compliant vehicles that range between 1995 and 2010. This seems to be the sweet spot for efficiency yet basic enough that mechanical systems are still prevalent.

Additionally, new vehicles are very expensive.

 

[MOAK]

This question is complicated. The answer will depend a lot on the mechanical aptitude of the individual, the general consensus of the vehicle manufactures reliability and how well the vehicle was/is maintained. Computer controlled vehicles seem to be more reliable for a longer period of time. I don't think you can argue that. The 'fear' is that the computer will freak out and cause a failure when the mechanics of a system are actually fine.

When thinking about this question I looked inward, to my garage, and thought of two typical trips I would take. However, I do not have a "modern" vehicle to even draw perspective from. Why? I don't want a 'connected' car that some whizz kid could potentially manipulate remotely. I know I lost faith in the new technology when my old 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee displayed "Service 4WD System" when I tried to put it in 4-Lo at the base of a beautiful trail 800 miles from home... That said, my overlanding vehicle is a 1999 Land Cruiser for most of the same reasons everybody has posted above.

Exhibit A: One week adventure motorcycle trip. Two bike choices; 1978 Yamaha DT250E or a 2017 Yamaha WR250R. Both bikes are meticulously maintained and run perfect. What bike would I choose for a one week trip? Easy, the 2017 with electric start, fuel injection and a modern suspension.​

Exhibit B: One month overland trip. Two vehicle choices; 1966 Chevrolet K20 or 2016 Toyota Land Cruiser. Both vehicles are meticulously maintained and run perfect. Which vehicle would I choose for a one month trip? Easy, the 2016 with a well insulated cabin, air conditioning, air bags, no points ignition since it has fuel injection and modern suspension. Although taking the old Chevrolet Pickup would certainly be fun, I would have to be in a very specific state of mind to want to do the trip.​

I think most of us feel more comfortable with a solid computer controlled fuel injection system versus a well tuned carburetor. These fuel injection systems are only one broken solder joint or water leak away from leaving you stranded, yet we trust it without giving it a second thought. Toss in a collision avoidance system and a transfer case selector on a touch screen and most of us pause, then say, "no, it's too complicated". I feel the same way. But why? I suspect we are waiting for enough time to pass for the newer technology to 'prove' itself before relying on it in the middle of nowhere. This is why most of us seem to drive OBDII compliant vehicles that range between 1995 and 2010. This seems to be the sweet spot for efficiency yet basic enough that mechanical systems are still prevalent.

Additionally, new vehicles are very expensive.

I’m with you almost 100%, I’d narrow it down a bit though - 1993 - 2005. ( first year of the FZJ 80 and the final year of the I-6 TJ/LJ Jeep Rubicon.) ASWP just finished the Canning Stock Rt with a couple of brand new vehicles and a 45 year old Range Rover successfully. We just finished up our 10th 6,000 + mile round trip in our 96 FZJ 80. We never ask the vehicle to do more than it is designed to do which is relatively easy to do.

 

[4x4tripping]

Here are many guys who travel not far out of civilisation (just US as example) - and have to the "need" of being able to fix anything by themself.

Never thought about the safety, when heaving a heavy crash or rollover?!

The advantage of 12+ Airbags, electronic stability system, pre-crash?

I did use a brand new land cruiser 200 at 2011 for my transafrica, for south america. I thought with that decission too about the safety of us passengers in the car.

Do you really worry about vehicle durability for 10`000k miles based trips inside of the US? Where maintenance and mechanics are mostly nearby? That is amazing - I`m wondering what vehicle those people would use for an round the world trip?!

Probably a bicycle, because of easy maintenance?

trippin

 

[MOAK]

Here are many guys who travel not far out of civilisation (just US as example) - and have to the "need" of being able to fix anything by themself.

Never thought about the safety, when heaving a heavy crash or rollover?!

The advantage of 12+ Airbags, electronic stability system, pre-crash?

I did use a brand new land cruiser 200 at 2011 for my transafrica, for south america. I thought with that decission too about the safety of us passengers in the car.

Do you really worry about vehicle durability for 10`000k miles based trips inside of the US? Where maintenance and mechanics are mostly nearby? That is amazing - I`m wondering what vehicle those people would use for an round the world trip?!

Probably a bicycle, because of easy maintenance?

trippin

I’m able to drive & maintain a 25 year old vehicle because here in the states it is very practical. Most Parts are only a day away, there are qualified shops everywhere. World tour? Australia? Africa, Asia, South America? Hands down a brand spanking new 70 series LC that has been properly modified. Which, of course because we can’t even get them here in the states makes the 70 series completely non-practicle. ( we should have a conversation about how many drivers are afraid to go out alone here in the lower 48, LOL )

 

[grubworm]

i think most vehicles will hold up just fine "overlanding" in the united states...
its crossing walmart parking lots where they are put to the test...

 

[K12]

i think most vehicles will hold up just fine "overlanding" in the united states...
its crossing walmart parking lots where they are put to the test...

View attachment 243428

I would love to see the poluce report and interviews on what happened for this one. Cameras would be useless since they dont work at walmart.

 

[Alanymarce]

...World tour? Australia? Africa, Asia, South America? Hands down a brand spanking new 70 series LC that has been properly modified...

Yes, and No.

We looked at buying an 11 year old 70 series with appropriate modifications in Australia (know the owner). It was a lot more expensive than shipping our own Montero to Australia and back (even if we include buying the Montero and modifying it).

Current price of a new 70 series (unmodifed) here - USD 84,000, so add modifications and you're spending anything from USD 87,000 upwards.

 

[Shakes355]

Brand matters and systems matter, to be sure. There are plenty of reasons for folks to be uncomfortable with computerized systems (see: BMW owners) But as a rule, I like to call it the illusion of complexity coupled with tighter operating tolerances (see: smaller margin for error).

The wiser of us tend to like older tech because they know how it works. The science is still the same and a lot of the same rules still apply today. It's just not as easy to spot right off. With some basic learning from some youtube-certified teachers, most anyone can dig in and get comfortable with their rig regardless of model year.

 

[YoKramer]

Not even a little. If anything I'm a little more cautious with my 250,000mi '02 Xterra than I will be with the '23 JL Rubicon we just ordered. After being a mechanic for years I just don't want to do my own wrenching anymore if I can avoid it. On top of that the Xterra is starting to show some major signs of age; both the front and rear crank seals are leaking and the lifters are noisy on startup, the trans sometimes shifts funny and has a shudder, the front suspension and steering are starting to wear out, one motor mount is hooped (and a whore to change), has open diffs and on top of all that the aftermarket is ok at best. Now don't get me wrong the truck has been great for the 8 years and tens of thousands of miles I've driven it and beat it out in the rocks and off road but its time for something new.

Now the JL still has a manual transfer case, comes with lockers, is solid front axle over IFS and comes with a warranty that Im expecting to use since it still is a Wrangler. Can I fix anything that pops up, yea sure and I will do most of it but when that big thing happens Ill shuffle it off to the dealer and get a loaner car while I wait.

 

[Anak]

That is not true, they go in to 4wd fine. You get some warnings like TC is disabled, or some other safety system is not working , cruise control might not work, but 4wd is fine, including on the newest Defender.
Yes your dash will be like a xmas tree, but you will get there.

Oddly enough, there are a bunch of folks whose real world experiences say otherwise.

Try looking up "Silverado won't go into 4wd ABS light on". That search also suggests there may be a similar issue with Ford F150s and Nissan Frontiers.

It is not a problem I am willing to accept. Even if there is some sort of convoluted work around involving key position or some such thing, that is unacceptable. My wife/teenage sons/even my mother should be able to get in the vehicle and be able to put it into 4wd without having to know the special handshake.

Note that I am not taking a blanket "no electronics" stance. My stance is against integrated systems. One failure should not create a cascade of failures. That is a design failure at best. It is downright evil if someone thinks they are doing it for my safety.

 

[Alanymarce]

I did have a further thought.

One thing which is now fairly common on newer vehicles is the lack of a handbrake - the parking brake is a button, so either "on" or "off".

I would not buy a vehicle without a handbrake - the ability to use it progressively to hold and control the vehicle on slopes/uneven surfaces is very valuable, in my view.

(I recall that some vehicles designed in the USA had a foot-operated parking brake, which I found really inconvenient when I first encountered these vehicles, however most vehicles around the world had handbrakes. )

 

[tjZ06]

I did have a further thought.

One thing which is now fairly common on newer vehicles is the lack of a handbrake - the parking brake is a button, so either "on" or "off".

I would not buy a vehicle without a handbrake - the ability to use it progressively to hold and control the vehicle on slopes/uneven surfaces is very valuable, in my view.

(I recall that some vehicles designed in the USA had a foot-operated parking brake, which I found really inconvenient when I first encountered these vehicles, however most vehicles around the world had handbrakes. )

Nearly everything sold in the US these days either has the electric parking brake, or a pedal operated one (mostly pickup trucks). That said, almost everything sold in the US these days is an automatic. I don't see much need/value for a handbrake in an auto, you can just two-foot it. I suppose CVTs are a good argument for a handbrake since they don't like being two-footed (lacking the traditional torque converter), but I'd never even remotely consider anything CVT for ANY Overlanding/off roading.

-TJ

 

[Willys Yella Jeep]

I do understand a desire for simplicity. Although I have a 2018 jlu rubicon with a 2.0l turbo and it's a mild hybrid, keeping this simple is important. Whether you choose a vehicle with all the bells and whistles or a manual carburetor beast, make sure that it can go where you want to go and won't leave you stuck. Emergency brakes are not an option. I believe that unless you have a friend with a big rock at the ready an e-brake is a better option.

 

[tjZ06]

Back to the original question, my primary Overlander is a 2011 Silverado 2500 diesel. It's not "old" but it's also not "new." Being a turbo diesel it's a bit more complex than its gasoline counterparts, and generally harder to work on but it's worth it to me for the torque, fuel range etc. There are things that can leave me stranded that I can't fix on the trail, yes - but I keep my maintenance over-the-top and replace any parts that are known to fail preemptively.

-TJ

 

[Alanymarce]

Nearly everything sold in the US these days either has the electric parking brake, or a pedal operated one (mostly pickup trucks). That said, almost everything sold in the US these days is an automatic. I don't see much need/value for a handbrake in an auto, you can just two-foot it. I suppose CVTs are a good argument for a handbrake since they don't like being two-footed (lacking the traditional torque converter), but I'd never even remotely consider anything CVT for ANY Overlanding/off roading.

-TJ

I take your point, although I do find it easier to control the handbrake when "easing" a vehicle on an uneven surface than using the foot brake, for some reason.

 

[tjZ06]

I take your point, although I do find it easier to control the handbrake when "easing" a vehicle on an uneven surface than using the foot brake, for some reason.

Interesting. Maybe it's just that I've always left-foot-braked any auto car I've ever driven so my left foot is just as adept/smooth at braking as my right. I know for folks that don't regularly left-foot-brake it's like learning to drive all over - very jerky.

-TJ

 

[Alanymarce]

Interesting. Maybe it's just that I've always left-foot-braked any auto car I've ever driven so my left foot is just as adept/smooth at braking as my right. I know for folks that don't regularly left-foot-brake it's like learning to drive all over - very jerky.

-TJ

I have used my left foot for braking, off and on, for years and you're right that initially it was not smooth - the left foot is accustomed to a different action on the clutch. Perhaps when I'm stationary or at very low speeds in an automatic my body memory is assuming that I'm using a clutch and not balancing the brake against the power very well. Always more to learn : )