Another HAM vs GMRS question

[M Rose]

Sorry I left the wrong impression. My comment was that there was a lot more to discuss on the air OTHER than ailments and politics. I do not like those discussions (Though the weather does interest me some).

Along with this... that is why we have a dedicated Overland Channel 146.460 then once you make a connection you have 146.461-146.469 to and even further

 

[Billy Hung]

HAM is great in big places like Big Bend and you can use a repeater to talk from one end of park to another in places with no cell service. Also the Dual Band feature so you can use your HH to talk to your vehicle to repeater is another feature.

I've been reading a lot about repeaters and still don't think I quite understand. What I think i know: Ham radios can reach super long distances because of repeaters which are basically giant transceivers way up high. You can chat with someone far away using that repeater BUT everyone else using that repeater can also hear right? Like the reapeater is just one big conference room for everyone to use? You are not simply using it to bounce your signal off on on your on freq., you are using the repeaters freq?

Are you saying that dual band allows you to use a handheld radio to talk with the one mounted in the vehicle? How is this different than just radio to radio?

 

[Billy Hung]

Oh..one last question for the night. So I was looking at some cheaper HT's while I save up for a TH-D72. I notice that the Baofengs, specifically the F8HP, 8 watts, can use 2m-70cm BUT you can also manually punch in FRS frequencies. I know technically this is a no no, even after lowering the power on the HT, it still has a removable antenna making it illegal. From what I can tell the TH-D72, at almost 6 times the price cannot do this. Is this the norm from the big 3? Being more legit companies, do they not risk crossing the line?

 

[rsweet]

Just got my Technician license :)

 

[M Rose]

I've been reading a lot about repeaters and still don't think I quite understand. What I think i know: Ham radios can reach super long distances because of repeaters which are basically giant transceivers way up high. You can chat with someone far away using that repeater BUT everyone else using that repeater can also hear right? Like the reapeater is just one big conference room for everyone to use? You are not simply using it to bounce your signal off on on your on freq., you are using the repeaters freq?



Are you saying that dual band allows you to use a handheld radio to talk with the one mounted in the vehicle? How is this different than just radio to radio?

Dual band... you set one band to your repeater and the other to your handheld unit... then you can talk and listen to both at the same time.
A repeater is actually more like a mirror bouncing the radio wave with a more direct point (usually to a satalite or to a digital gateway.
I would recommend you talk with members of your local ham club. Or contact @Prerunner1982

 

[Ubiety]

Just got my Technician license :)

Congratulations! The men in black will show up shortly to teach you the secret handshake :)

 

[M Rose]

They haven’t found me yet

 

[M Rose]

Just got my Technician license :)

Congrats once you get your call sign, go to the call sign check in thread.

 

[rsweet]

Congrats once you get your call sign, go to the call sign check in thread.

Will do! Now I need to spec out a radio for my rig. I have a Yaesu VX-6r now. Need a mobile unit for truck.

 

[Ubiety]

Oh..one last question for the night. So I was looking at some cheaper HT's while I save up for a TH-D72. I notice that the Baofengs, specifically the F8HP, 8 watts, can use 2m-70cm BUT you can also manually punch in FRS frequencies. I know technically this is a no no, even after lowering the power on the HT, it still has a removable antenna making it illegal. From what I can tell the TH-D72, at almost 6 times the price cannot do this. Is this the norm from the big 3? Being more legit companies, do they not risk crossing the line?

That is a can of worms :) I just went through this looking at the AnyTone 878 and the Kenwood D74, both APRS radios with self contained GPS. To me it came down to quality and feature set. The Kenwood is known quality, I have been running them for years without fail and the feature set blows the other away - the D74 is an HF receiver as well! That said; if I was new to the hobby or could not afford the Kenwood I would have looked harder at the alternatives. Go take a look at YouTube, saw some cheap/expensive HT comparison videos there this evening. You could get the cheaper radio now, grow/save into a better one once you have developed some interests and find/lust for a shiny new radio then have the cheap one as a backup/loaner. A spare comes in handy more often than you think.

Wanted to address one comment you made about the removable antenna. Not sure what you meant but wanted to caution you against ever running a transmitter without an antenna. Bad joojoo that can cost you a radio.

And I totally agree your assessment of OB forum members being welcoming, supportive and overall an enjoyable crowd.

 

[Prerunner1982]

@Billy Hung feel free to hit me up, I am in the OKC area as well and probably one of the biggest #radionerds here.
I will reply to your questions in the AM when I am in front of a computer.

 

[Itacal]

Just got my Technician license :)

Congrats! I have my general and my GMRS, and would not want to be without either. GMRS for trail comms is great, but if the group gets separated and you can't reach anyone through GMRS, there is a likelihood you can reach someone in the group with a ham radio. Also, there are so many aspects of ham radio, it would take a lifetime to delve into all of them. That is the beauty of amateur radio: There is so much there, you're bound to find something to pique your interest.

 

[JeepGuy91]

That is a can of worms :) I just went through this looking at the AnyTone 878 and the Kenwood D74, both APRS radios with self contained GPS. To me it came down to quality and feature set. The Kenwood is known quality, I have been running them for years without fail and the feature set blows the other away - the D74 is an HF receiver as well! That said; if I was new to the hobby or could not afford the Kenwood I would have looked harder at the alternatives. Go take a look at YouTube, saw some cheap/expensive HT comparison videos there this evening. You could get the cheaper radio now, grow/save into a better one once you have developed some interests and find/lust for a shiny new radio then have the cheap one as a backup/loaner. A spare comes in handy more often than you think.

Wanted to address one comment you made about the removable antenna. Not sure what you meant but wanted to caution you against ever running a transmitter without an antenna. Bad joojoo that can cost you a radio.

And I totally agree your assessment of OB forum members being welcoming, supportive and overall an enjoyable crowd.

I think he was saying that since the radio he was talking about had a removable antenna, per the FCC rules, it was not legal for use on FRS frequencies. They're also not legal for use on GMRS. All GMRS radios must be approved by the FCC.

 

[Ubiety]

I think he was saying that since the radio he was talking about had a removable antenna, per the FCC rules, it was not legal for use on FRS frequencies. They're also not legal for use on GMRS. All GMRS radios must be approved by the FCC.

I think I get what you are saying but am not familiar with the removable antenna CFR - I don't play FRS/GMRS. When I got my ticket we had sticks and rocks and you never wanted to fire up your rock without having your stick attached. :)

 

[Prerunner1982]

So.. I've been doing a lot of reading, prepping for my tech test, even ordered a mobile unit to put in my vehicle ahead of time. Every time the question is ask about which way to go: CB, HAM, GMRS, people seem to almost scream HAM. So that's the route I went. There are just so many pro's to it. Longer distances, more frequencies, APRS, etc.

BUT from what I can tell after further digging is that HAM is really meant for radio hobbyist who talk about their equipment more than communicate. My purpose for this whole thing is communication with buddies I am traveling with, and during hikes where someone remains at camp. It seems like HAM is not suited for this as the communication is much more structured. You get on a frequency, wait to see if anyone is already using it. You check in with your call sign (you have to do this every 10 minutes or someone might report you) you say what you need and sign off. It a nutshell it does not seem very user friendly. The capabilities are all their, LONG distance communication; but I'm not supposed to use it like a walkie talkie?

Or am I missing something? Maybe the first HAMs are retiring and a new generation is coming online: overland crowd, off-roaders, etc. At this point I am switching gears and getting GMRS for communication and a handheld HAM for emergency communication along with my inReach.

Ham radio has many facets and is used for many things. It's a hobby which is probably the most common, but it is also used for emergency communications, storm spotting, experimenting, as well as just general communications...which includes chit chat or as ham say rag chewing. The local repeater I listen to is typically busier during morning and evening drive times, guys and some ladies get on there and just chat about their day, what they are working on or doing this weekend. These conversations can go on for some time with people joining the conversation or leaving the conversation as they arrive at their destination. There are sometimes couples who use the repeater to check in with each other on their way home from work and discuss their meal plans for the evening or if they need to stop somewhere on the way home.
It's really not as dress right dress as it may seem to you, sure there seems to be a lot of rules but it's really not that bad. Mainly ID every 10 mins during your conversation and at the end, don't cuss, and be courteous to others.
How strict can the rules be, there are ham radio contests every weekend.. hams like to play games too.

Hi. First of all I want to say thank you all for the warm welcome/answers. I was half expecting some umm.. less then pleasant banter with the way the WWW is these days. So yeah, appreciate the patience shown from everyone!

Back on topic. So is it fair to say that out away from heavy populated areas, like forest, campsites, etc, people are a bit more lax on radio transmission decorum/rules/laws? Would it be reasonable to think that on the way to such places, my buddy and I can find a unused frequency, call in, and leave ourselves on that frequency for the trip reporting in once in a while? We both travel with children and sometimes there are only a few bathrooms along the route so stopping in time is important. Once at a secluded place we would be able to chat a bit more freely?

Local fee for tech test seems to be $15. Hence why I still plan on getting my technician license regardless of the direction I go. The other part that interested me about GMRS is that its $90 for the whole family to get licensed. But again, its so much weaker from what I understand that it would not serve that one purpose of communication well let alone the many others HAM can (GPS location, APRS). But its nice that I won't have to "persuade" my wife to study and get her technician license..

I am the first in my small group to start looking into radios as an alternative/emergency communication system so we are not tied to any particular system yet. Again I was strongly convinced HAM was the way to go. My only hesitation is in the rigidness of its use.

This place is quite welcoming, regardless of what you drive or your level of build.

Sure find an un-used frequency and use it, be mindful of band plans as there are certain sections of frequencies used for simplex communication as not to interfere with repeaters or satellites or etc.
Band Plan: http://icomamerica.com/en/amateur/amateurtools/2019_USBandPlan.pdf
See the 2m line, the pink color is for simplex. Typically 146.40-146.60 MHz is used, the OB frequency of choice of 146.460 and the 2m National Calling frequency of 146.520 fall into this area. You could also use a frequency between 147.40 MHz and 147.60 MHz.
I wouldn't worry about waiting until you are in a secluded place to chat freely, like I mentioned before just be mindful of the language and chat away. There is nothing against that in the ham radio rules.

GMRS is fine for communication within a group or convoy and around camp, it can cover some distance as well. Ham radio is good for emergency contact and as a tool (APRS) as well as for general communication. One may serve you better in a particular situation or circumstance.. such as GMRS for communication between vehicles with your wife (I am likely going this route as well).

Thanks. Its encouraging to hear. I was pretty disheartened reading that the old folks like @J.W. only get on HAM to talk about equipment, politics, and the weather. Good to know I can actually use this "tool" for my intended purpose and have a side hobby with it as well.

I recall at least two sites in my early days of research that was like a HAM for Dummies guide. I cannot find those sites again. Can anyone point me towards some good research. Passing the test is the easy part to me. I want to actually know what the heck I am doing and prepping for the test did nothing..

Old hams and their ailments is something you hear a lot on HF, maybe not so much on VHF.

Here are some resources that may help. That are more than just the question/answers.

Gordon West Radio School | 714-549-5000 | Ham It Up!

Gordon West Radio School | 714-549-5000 | Home Page

www.gordonwestradioschool.com

ARRL :: What's New

I've been reading a lot about repeaters and still don't think I quite understand. What I think i know: Ham radios can reach super long distances because of repeaters which are basically giant transceivers way up high. You can chat with someone far away using that repeater BUT everyone else using that repeater can also hear right? Like the reapeater is just one big conference room for everyone to use? You are not simply using it to bounce your signal off on on your on freq., you are using the repeaters freq?

Are you saying that dual band allows you to use a handheld radio to talk with the one mounted in the vehicle? How is this different than just radio to radio?

Repeaters take your signal and retransmit it on a slightly different frequency from an antenna way up high giving you more range. Everyone can hear you and you are tying up the repeater so it is common practice to not get too long winded with your conversation in case someone else would like to use the repeater as well.

Dual band radios simply means you can use two different bands, typically 2m and 70cm. Some radios can only utilize one band at a time, others can monitor two frequencies at the same time. Some dual band radios also have cross band repeat, which works well with a handheld when you are away from the vehicle. The easiest way to use this is say you wanted to get into a 2m repeater, you program one "side" of your mobile radio to a UHF frequency and the other "side" to the 2m repeater frequency. You program the handheld to the UHF frequency. You talk to the handheld, it transmits to the mobile radio and then the mobile radio transmits on the 2m frequency to the repeater. When someone responds, the mobile picks up on the 2m frequency from the repeater and sends it to you on the UHF frequency you are using on the handheld.
Now if you wanted to use the mobile radio as a repeater around camp that is a little more difficult on the handheld as you would have to program the handheld to transmit on a UHF (or VHF) and have it receive on the other. If you transmit on UHF, it would receive on VHF or vise versa.

Oh..one last question for the night. So I was looking at some cheaper HT's while I save up for a TH-D72. I notice that the Baofengs, specifically the F8HP, 8 watts, can use 2m-70cm BUT you can also manually punch in FRS frequencies. I know technically this is a no no, even after lowering the power on the HT, it still has a removable antenna making it illegal. From what I can tell the TH-D72, at almost 6 times the price cannot do this. Is this the norm from the big 3? Being more legit companies, do they not risk crossing the line?

Why do the big 3 radios not allow programming of non-ham frequencies... because as you noted it's illegal. They don't want to get in trouble with the FCC as Baofeng distributors recently did. Most any radio though can be opened up to transmit out of band by doing a MARS/CAP mod.

 

[Prerunner1982]

@Billy Hung
Like I said earlier, feel free to hit me up.
I am in the NW OKC area, if you need any help or have any questions.
Also if you might have an interest in ham radio as a hobby and getting into HF, I can help you there too.
The largest ham radio "contest" is coming up the end of June. I am planning on going up to Lake McMurtry to camp and operate in the contest, you are welcome to tag along or there are a handful of clubs in the area that also participate and I can point you to one of them if you would rather. The contest is called Field Day and it is a large scale disaster scenario, hams and ham clubs set up portable stations and antennas run off emergency power (generators, batteries, solar, etc) and operate for 24hrs making as many contacts as possible. Some clubs make it more of a social gathering, others like the contest, either way is fine. It's generally a good time to get some hands on experience with different radios and different antennas, helping to set up, and seeing different modes (SSB, CW, digital, satellite, etc).

 

[M Rose]

Thanks Jon,
I think this has been one of the best threads on Ham I have read so far. I can’t wait to purchase my Radio... hurry up IRS and give me my money back.

 

[JackA]

I’m glad you mentioned that. GMRS cost about $70 for a license, Ham is free. If you don’t know what you will be using right now, start with Ham, it cost nothing to get the license. If you find you want GMRS after that, go for it! Nothing wrong with having both.

The GMRS license is $7 a year. payable in 10 year increments; meaning that you pay for 10 years at a time which is $70. It allows multiple family users and GMRS Radios which means those covered can each operate their own radio.

 

[JackA]

I have been considering this topic for a few months now. My 4X4 club (Trail Seekers, Wenatchee, WA) is heavy on HAM because the founder is a HAM enthusiast and promoter. I have yet to understand the disadvantages of GMRS. There are 22 discrete channels of GMRS with 8 of them authorized for not more that 50W operation. I am often told that channel crowding can be an issue with only 22 channels yet when I am off pavement I have not experienced this. In addition, each GMRS channel has a range of 38 "privacy codes" which causes transmissions on the channel to be ignored (squelched out) if not set to the same privacy code. This in my mind is the same as more channels. The General Mobil Radio Service seems to have the same power that most mobil HAM units are operating on. Frequency setting is for sure offers more channel choices but why is that a real advantage? I may yet get a HAM license but remain somewhat convinced that GMRS is going to become the common mobile communication system because it is equal in practical use and family groups can use the same $7/year license.

 

[Ubiety]

This in my mind is the same as more channels

HAM is a hobby that many folks are into and that bleeds over into overlanding as you have seen. If GMRS works for you then use it! If folks you are overlanding with use GMRS then it makes sense for you to pursue that route. Having your HAM ticket allows you to do other things besides yack on a radio - hitting satellites, APRS, long distance, etc. Whatever works for you. Totally agree that when you get to the wild places there is very little, if any, interference from others.

The squelch codes are not giving you more channels, just the ability to not hear each other. All of the users on a channel, regardless of squelch tone, may only transmit one at one time or you may get folks stepping on transmissions that you are interested in. Overlanding in the wild not such a problem, but it could be an issue at a crowded venue like Disneyland.