'91 Centurion Classic C350 7.3 IDI 4x4 -= aka =- My Name is Lycanical, and I have issues...

[M Rose]

The quote from that shop had nothing to do with a shortage. They are a top tier place that does restorations from around the world for people with way more money than I care to spend.

They will only use certain brands and processes because they have an image to uphold. I believe for their paint service they take the vehicle apart and sand blast etc .. they don't have a tape and spray option.

MAACO keeps telling me $4500-6000 with repairs to the body damage, using their premium paint and all the upgrades options.

Ok that makes sense. And that shop probably uses OEM type paints as well. I wonder how much the Centuron would be worth with that type of restoration done.

 

[Dilldog]

I just saw this thread, super awesome build. 99% of cavitation in the older Navistars is from incorrect coolant. Most people put standard green automotive coolant in the 6.9 and 7.3 and end up havving issues with pitting cylinders and the front cover behind the water pump. Run a heavy duty diesel coolant that is approved by Cummins, International, Caterpillaer etc and you will be good to go. That is one of the first things I do to every old Navistar powered Ford that rolls into the shop.
Also make sure you are running a fuel additive, the two I have run and liked the best are Power Service and Stanadyne. And that old guy being a mechanical you can run 10-20% waste oil in it easilly, so save your used motor oil and use it as fuel.

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

Ok that makes sense. And that shop probably uses OEM type paints as well. I wonder how much the Centuron would be worth with that type of restoration done.

I have no idea... I've been watching video's this weekend about possibly just doing a Raptor liner paint job, which I can do myself. I've got a buddy that has done bondo work etc... and my uncle was saying I should bring it to his A/C / Heated shop anytime to work on it. Or maybe just have Maaco do the body work and then paint myself... Who knows.. I'll keep thinking about it.

At this point, I'm running out of steam on the entire project given all the problems we have had with parts, fitment, and service shops.

 

[M Rose]

I have no idea... I've been watching video's this weekend about possibly just doing a Raptor liner paint job, which I can do myself. I've got a buddy that has done bondo work etc... and my uncle was saying I should bring it to his A/C / Heated shop anytime to work on it. Or maybe just have Maaco do the body work and then paint myself... Who knows.. I'll keep thinking about it.

At this point, I'm running out of steam on the entire project given all the problems we have had with parts, fitment, and service shops.

DO NOT RAPTOR LINE YOUR TRUCK. Broncos have skyrocketed in price the past 18 months. Centurions are fetching a pretty penny in parts truck condition as long as the body panels are original and unmolested…I just saw a rusted out shell sell for 6k yesterday. Last week a really nicely restored Centurion sold for almost 100k
My 89 EB was just appraised at 25K when it wasn’t running, now that it’s running it’s approximately 45K with stock paint. As soon as you raptor line it you’re looking at $500.00, you can get away with the raptor liner on the fiberglass cap in an OEM like color, but not on the sheet metal.
I hear ya on getting burnt out… that’s why my EB is sitting in touched for the time being… I got tired of wrenching on her, but the wife won’t let me sell it.

 

[North American Sojourner]

I have no idea... I've been watching video's this weekend about possibly just doing a Raptor liner paint job, which I can do myself. I've got a buddy that has done bondo work etc... and my uncle was saying I should bring it to his A/C / Heated shop anytime to work on it. Or maybe just have Maaco do the body work and then paint myself... Who knows.. I'll keep thinking about it.

At this point, I'm running out of steam on the entire project given all the problems we have had with parts, fitment, and service shops.

I'd just sand out the bits that look bad, and clear it. (rat rod style) There are thousands of videos on line on how to do it. Cost is minimal and you'll have fun doing it. If you watch some of "Vice Grip Garage" videos he uses a secret formula to treat the existing paint and then how to clear it. I don't know many folks that have rare car restoration money but I do know thousands that want to get out into the wild and see the Country. I'd go for the latter. LOL.
Nice rig sir.
Zim

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

I have no idea... I've been watching video's this weekend about possibly just doing a Raptor liner paint job, which I can do myself. I've got a buddy that has done bondo work etc... and my uncle was saying I should bring it to his A/C / Heated shop anytime to work on it. Or maybe just have Maaco do the body work and then paint myself... Who knows.. I'll keep thinking about it.

At this point, I'm running out of steam on the entire project given all the problems we have had with parts, fitment, and service shops.

I'd just sand out the bits that look bad, and clear it. (rat rod style) There are thousands of videos on line on how to do it. Cost is minimal and you'll have fun doing it. If you watch some of "Vice Grip Garage" videos he uses a secret formula to treat the existing paint and then how to clear it. I don't know many folks that have rare car restoration money but I do know thousands that want to get out into the wild and see the Country. I'd go for the latter. LOL.
Nice rig sir.
Zim

I actually don't mind the money part as long as I feel like I am getting my money's worth. This last place I had it at I told them I have a long list of places with parts that I know ship fast, I can get OEM sheet metal for things like floor pans if needed etc...

They looked at the door lock actuators the day I took it in after coordinating bringing it with me for weeks, then said it needed new parts, and wouldn't order them or let me order them. Truck literally sat in 100 degree sun for 5 weeks with no action. Sorry, but it can sit at my house (2 miles away) under the car port for 5 weeks, and I can be doing other work on it or driving it etc...

What is rubbing me the wrong way are the shops that I keep finding with supposed great reputations that are not coming through on their end, double charging me so it becomes a hassle, and not being honest about what's going on.

I think a lot of it is that they don't want to take on longer jobs. They want the oil change stuff where they get more vehicles through the system. When we were talking about it when I dropped it off they said it would take $20,000 just to paint and I laughed at the price and said not for me, because it's a homestead / adventure vehicle... I think they went from seeing me as a gold mine to seeing me as wanting exactly what we talked about for months via the phone.

 

[Dilldog]

I have no idea... I've been watching video's this weekend about possibly just doing a Raptor liner paint job, which I can do myself. I've got a buddy that has done bondo work etc... and my uncle was saying I should bring it to his A/C / Heated shop anytime to work on it. Or maybe just have Maaco do the body work and then paint myself... Who knows.. I'll keep thinking about it.

At this point, I'm running out of steam on the entire project given all the problems we have had with parts, fitment, and service shops.

I'd just sand out the bits that look bad, and clear it. (rat rod style) There are thousands of videos on line on how to do it. Cost is minimal and you'll have fun doing it. If you watch some of "Vice Grip Garage" videos he uses a secret formula to treat the existing paint and then how to clear it. I don't know many folks that have rare car restoration money but I do know thousands that want to get out into the wild and see the Country. I'd go for the latter. LOL.
Nice rig sir.
Zim

I actually don't mind the money part as long as I feel like I am getting my money's worth. This last place I had it at I told them I have a long list of places with parts that I know ship fast, I can get OEM sheet metal for things like floor pans if needed etc...

They looked at the door lock actuators the day I took it in after coordinating bringing it with me for weeks, then said it needed new parts, and wouldn't order them or let me order them. Truck literally sat in 100 degree sun for 5 weeks with no action. Sorry, but it can sit at my house (2 miles away) under the car port for 5 weeks, and I can be doing other work on it or driving it etc...

What is rubbing me the wrong way are the shops that I keep finding with supposed great reputations that are not coming through on their end, double charging me so it becomes a hassle, and not being honest about what's going on.

I think a lot of it is that they don't want to take on longer jobs. They want the oil change stuff where they get more vehicles through the system. When we were talking about it when I dropped it off they said it would take $20,000 just to paint and I laughed at the price and said not for me, because it's a homestead / adventure vehicle... I think they went from seeing me as a gold mine to seeing me as wanting exactly what we talked about for months via the phone.

I would avoid the normal shops for exactly the reasons you state. Your average mechanic thrives on volume. I would try calling up some guys that do restorations. Sometimes those shops like getting in something different and that doesn't require the level of polish they typically do. Also a restoration shop will be set up with parts suppliers that sell hard to find parts for older stuff.
Another thing to consider is just finding an individual that does a lot of side work. Most mechanics do work out of thier home, it will be cheaper and much more flexible. Downsides will be it may take longer and there will be no warranty, but most will stand behind thier work and make things right.

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

I have no idea... I've been watching video's this weekend about possibly just doing a Raptor liner paint job, which I can do myself. I've got a buddy that has done bondo work etc... and my uncle was saying I should bring it to his A/C / Heated shop anytime to work on it. Or maybe just have Maaco do the body work and then paint myself... Who knows.. I'll keep thinking about it.

At this point, I'm running out of steam on the entire project given all the problems we have had with parts, fitment, and service shops.

I'd just sand out the bits that look bad, and clear it. (rat rod style) There are thousands of videos on line on how to do it. Cost is minimal and you'll have fun doing it. If you watch some of "Vice Grip Garage" videos he uses a secret formula to treat the existing paint and then how to clear it. I don't know many folks that have rare car restoration money but I do know thousands that want to get out into the wild and see the Country. I'd go for the latter. LOL.
Nice rig sir.
Zim

I actually don't mind the money part as long as I feel like I am getting my money's worth. This last place I had it at I told them I have a long list of places with parts that I know ship fast, I can get OEM sheet metal for things like floor pans if needed etc...

They looked at the door lock actuators the day I took it in after coordinating bringing it with me for weeks, then said it needed new parts, and wouldn't order them or let me order them. Truck literally sat in 100 degree sun for 5 weeks with no action. Sorry, but it can sit at my house (2 miles away) under the car port for 5 weeks, and I can be doing other work on it or driving it etc...

What is rubbing me the wrong way are the shops that I keep finding with supposed great reputations that are not coming through on their end, double charging me so it becomes a hassle, and not being honest about what's going on.

I think a lot of it is that they don't want to take on longer jobs. They want the oil change stuff where they get more vehicles through the system. When we were talking about it when I dropped it off they said it would take $20,000 just to paint and I laughed at the price and said not for me, because it's a homestead / adventure vehicle... I think they went from seeing me as a gold mine to seeing me as wanting exactly what we talked about for months via the phone.

I would avoid the normal shops for exactly the reasons you state. Your average mechanic thrives on volume. I would try calling up some guys that do restorations. Sometimes those shops like getting in something different and that doesn't require the level of polish they typically do. Also a restoration shop will be set up with parts suppliers that sell hard to find parts for older stuff.

This last place is a restoration / custom / hot-rod shop. They do vehicles from all over the world, and because I drive past them daily I have seen the work for years.

Another resto shop closed from COVID, one never calls me back...

The place that specializes in ford's and diesels (exactly me) doesn't seem to know what the hell they are doing because they couldn't ID parts of my drivetrain which added weeks to the work, left the belt for the AC sloppy, left my transfer case disconnected, and they have double and triple billed me on things.

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

DO NOT RAPTOR LINE YOUR TRUCK. Broncos have skyrocketed in price the past 18 months. Centurions are fetching a pretty penny in parts truck condition as long as the body panels are original and unmolested…I just saw a rusted out shell sell for 6k yesterday. Last week a really nicely restored Centurion sold for almost 100k
My 89 EB was just appraised at 25K when it wasn’t running, now that it’s running it’s approximately 45K with stock paint. As soon as you raptor line it you’re looking at $500.00, you can get away with the raptor liner on the fiberglass cap in an OEM like color, but not on the sheet metal.
I hear ya on getting burnt out… that’s why my EB is sitting in touched for the time being… I got tired of wrenching on her, but the wife won’t let me sell it.

You may have talked me out of the raptor liner paint job, maybe not... The thing is, I sort of don't care about it from a value perspective because I have no intention of selling it. I bought the truck for $6k and I've got about $10k in repairs (most of in the engine / drivetrain). It has a salvaged / recovered brand from somewhere in it's past, and I'm guessing at some point was either someones project parts donor or was in a pull-a-part lot as most of the interior trim is gone (I've been collecting from eBay), it's got some sort of rubber coating on the floor rather than carpet, and its share of other issues. I was looking at the raptor liner as a "better than paint" option for durability and the fact that I want this thing to take me to my grave (not in the sense that I want the vehicle to be the death of me, hah!).

Part of the reason I got into this adventure though was because I've been paying thousands a year on leased vehicles for almost two decades and I'm tired of constantly shelling out money, adding aftermarket stuff, and then turning it in. I've had my fun with trading in year after year and always getting the new bells, whistles, and fresh leather smell. I did the 1st gen Raptor when those were new and cool, I've done the Rebel when it was new. I've had my fill of $60-90k vehicles and would like this one to not go down that path if possible as it would defeat the purpose of getting it in the first place. If I wanted to drop that sort of money again, I'd probably be looking at an F-250 Tremor. If I could get a diesel in the new Bronco, I'd be considering that as well...

Just for some more fun backstory, I'm basically needing a 3 row vehicle for my daily driver, while at the same time also needing a farm truck, and an adventure wagon. I've wanted a Centurion ever since I saw one as a kid when they were new, and it checks all the boxes. Top is on, I've got room for 8 creatures and gear. Top is off, 4x4 engaged, and it's fun adventure time. (Or perhaps just hauling the family and my service dog to Sonic for some frozen summer treats). Seats stowed and I've got 12' of covered bed space with the tailgate closed, or lots of room for fruit trees etc with the top off. That's a lot of bags of soil (30 bags last run, without touching the seating), bails of straw, lumber, etc... for our homestead!

At this point, I'm looking to start building on my retirement house and sort of want to spin down to manage outgoing money so my early retirement comes together.

While I'm at it, should I be warned away from painting the underside with Coroseal to manage the rust? :)

 

[Dilldog]

That sucks that shops in your area aren't worth anything. I guess up here we are just a bit different, when I worked for Caterpillar we worked on on highway trucks (naturally specializing in Cats) but also stuff as diverse as a 1966 C600 Ford and a 1989 British Leyland bus...
As far as diesels in light duty goes, anything post 2007 isn't worth it in my opinion. The emissions systems make them less reliable and have a shorter overall life span with higher maintenance costs than a gasoline engine. Unless you will be towing a lot and often, light duty diesel doesn't make sense. Honestly the Ford Eco Boosts even get comparable empty fuel millage when compared to a diesel in a similar platform. Naturally the diesel will get better fuel millage when loaded. Also quite frankly the Power Stroke doesn't get but 2-5mpg more than the new 7.3L gas empty or loaded and costs thousands more upfront and throughout its service life...
Now once diesel engine manufacturers have figured out how to run cleaner without bolt on exhaust treatment band aids like the gassers did about 25 years ago we will have something special worth investing in.

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

That sucks that shops in your area aren't worth anything. I guess up here we are just a bit different, when I worked for Caterpillar we worked on on highway trucks (naturally specializing in Cats) but also stuff as diverse as a 1966 C600 Ford and a 1989 British Leyland bus...
As far as diesels in light duty goes, anything post 2007 isn't worth it in my opinion. The emissions systems make them less reliable and have a shorter overall life span with higher maintenance costs than a gasoline engine. Unless you will be towing a lot and often, light duty diesel doesn't make sense. Honestly the Ford Eco Boosts even get comparable empty fuel millage when compared to a diesel in a similar platform. Naturally the diesel will get better fuel millage when loaded. Also quite frankly the Power Stroke doesn't get but 2-5mpg more than the new 7.3L gas empty or loaded and costs thousands more upfront and throughout its service life...
Now once diesel engine manufacturers have figured out how to run cleaner without bolt on exhaust treatment band aids like the gassers did about 25 years ago we will have something special worth investing in.

I just like the sound, and I like the feel of diesel ;)

 

[M Rose]

You may have talked me out of the raptor liner paint job, maybe not... The thing is, I sort of don't care about it from a value perspective because I have no intention of selling it. I bought the truck for $6k and I've got about $10k in repairs (most of in the engine / drivetrain). It has a salvaged / recovered brand from somewhere in it's past, and I'm guessing at some point was either someones project parts donor or was in a pull-a-part lot as most of the interior trim is gone (I've been collecting from eBay), it's got some sort of rubber coating on the floor rather than carpet, and its share of other issues. I was looking at the raptor liner as a "better than paint" option for durability and the fact that I want this thing to take me to my grave (not in the sense that I want the vehicle to be the death of me, hah!).

Part of the reason I got into this adventure though was because I've been paying thousands a year on leased vehicles for almost two decades and I'm tired of constantly shelling out money, adding aftermarket stuff, and then turning it in. I've had my fun with trading in year after year and always getting the new bells, whistles, and fresh leather smell. I did the 1st gen Raptor when those were new and cool, I've done the Rebel when it was new. I've had my fill of $60-90k vehicles and would like this one to not go down that path if possible as it would defeat the purpose of getting it in the first place. If I wanted to drop that sort of money again, I'd probably be looking at an F-250 Tremor. If I could get a diesel in the new Bronco, I'd be considering that as well...

Just for some more fun backstory, I'm basically needing a 3 row vehicle for my daily driver, while at the same time also needing a farm truck, and an adventure wagon. I've wanted a Centurion ever since I saw one as a kid when they were new, and it checks all the boxes. Top is on, I've got room for 8 creatures and gear. Top is off, 4x4 engaged, and it's fun adventure time. (Or perhaps just hauling the family and my service dog to Sonic for some frozen summer treats). Seats stowed and I've got 12' of covered bed space with the tailgate closed, or lots of room for fruit trees etc with the top off. That's a lot of bags of soil (30 bags last run, without touching the seating), bails of straw, lumber, etc... for our homestead!

At this point, I'm looking to start building on my retirement house and sort of want to spin down to manage outgoing money so my early retirement comes together.

While I'm at it, should I be warned away from painting the underside with Coroseal to manage the rust? :)

There will come a time when you will sell… and at that point in time you will regret the rhino liner… I did in my 2nd gen Ram with 12V Cummins… I bought the truck for 5 grand, and sold a 30k truck for 3 because of the rhino liner… everything else looked new… in fact everything was new…

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

You may have talked me out of the raptor liner paint job, maybe not... The thing is, I sort of don't care about it from a value perspective because I have no intention of selling it. I bought the truck for $6k and I've got about $10k in repairs (most of in the engine / drivetrain). It has a salvaged / recovered brand from somewhere in it's past, and I'm guessing at some point was either someones project parts donor or was in a pull-a-part lot as most of the interior trim is gone (I've been collecting from eBay), it's got some sort of rubber coating on the floor rather than carpet, and its share of other issues. I was looking at the raptor liner as a "better than paint" option for durability and the fact that I want this thing to take me to my grave (not in the sense that I want the vehicle to be the death of me, hah!).

Part of the reason I got into this adventure though was because I've been paying thousands a year on leased vehicles for almost two decades and I'm tired of constantly shelling out money, adding aftermarket stuff, and then turning it in. I've had my fun with trading in year after year and always getting the new bells, whistles, and fresh leather smell. I did the 1st gen Raptor when those were new and cool, I've done the Rebel when it was new. I've had my fill of $60-90k vehicles and would like this one to not go down that path if possible as it would defeat the purpose of getting it in the first place. If I wanted to drop that sort of money again, I'd probably be looking at an F-250 Tremor. If I could get a diesel in the new Bronco, I'd be considering that as well...

Just for some more fun backstory, I'm basically needing a 3 row vehicle for my daily driver, while at the same time also needing a farm truck, and an adventure wagon. I've wanted a Centurion ever since I saw one as a kid when they were new, and it checks all the boxes. Top is on, I've got room for 8 creatures and gear. Top is off, 4x4 engaged, and it's fun adventure time. (Or perhaps just hauling the family and my service dog to Sonic for some frozen summer treats). Seats stowed and I've got 12' of covered bed space with the tailgate closed, or lots of room for fruit trees etc with the top off. That's a lot of bags of soil (30 bags last run, without touching the seating), bails of straw, lumber, etc... for our homestead!

At this point, I'm looking to start building on my retirement house and sort of want to spin down to manage outgoing money so my early retirement comes together.

While I'm at it, should I be warned away from painting the underside with Coroseal to manage the rust? :)

There will come a time when you will sell… and at that point in time you will regret the rhino liner… I did in my 2nd gen Ram with 12V Cummins… I bought the truck for 5 grand, and sold a 30k truck for 3 because of the rhino liner… everything else looked new… in fact everything was new…

You missed a great opportunity to pull an epic 'and on that day you will think back on me...'

 

[Dilldog]

I just like the sound, and I like the feel of diesel ;)

Thats fair, all the more reason to stick with an old school mechanical or early pre emissions commons rail (the exhaust stuff kills all of the sound, also the multi injection common rails (a thing mostly for emissions) makes them run super quiet). I'm with you I LOVE the sound of a straight six diesel with compounds running at full load, one of the reasons I loved being a CAT dyno tech so much. I also did quite enjoy my old first gen Dodge, 75hp injectors, BD pump, an HX40 and 5" straight pipe rolling burnouts were a thing lol...

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

I just like the sound, and I like the feel of diesel ;)

Thats fair, all the more reason to stick with an old school mechanical or early pre emissions commons rail (the exhaust stuff kills all of the sound, also the multi injection common rails (a thing mostly for emissions) makes them run super quiet). I'm with you I LOVE the sound of a straight six diesel with compounds running at full load, one of the reasons I loved being a CAT dyno tech so much. I also did quite enjoy my old first gen Dodge, 75hp injectors, BD pump, an HX40 and 5" straight pipe rolling burnouts were a thing lol...

Don't let the Centurion know, but I was on the market for an old school D200 crew to do a Cummins swap at the same time when I was looking for it.

Wife has been leaning on me to consider getting her an 89 Grand Wagoneer to swap as well.

Hah!

 

[Dilldog]

Don't let the Centurion know, but I was on the market for an old school D200 crew to do a Cummins swap at the same time when I was looking for it.

Wife has been leaning on me to consider getting her an 89 Grand Wagoneer to swap as well.

Hah!

Having owned a few SJ Jeeps, if you were to swap into a Wagoneer I would look for a Benzo diesel (like an OM616) because the frames on those guys are kinda cheezey. In order to run a Cummins or other industrial style diesel you would need to box or maybe even sleeve the frame.

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

Don't let the Centurion know, but I was on the market for an old school D200 crew to do a Cummins swap at the same time when I was looking for it.

Wife has been leaning on me to consider getting her an 89 Grand Wagoneer to swap as well.

Hah!

Having owned a few SJ Jeeps, if you were to swap into a Wagoneer I would look for a Benzo diesel (like an OM616) because the frames on those guys are kinda cheezey. In order to run a Cummins or other industrial style diesel you would need to box or maybe even sleeve the frame.

From what I see, most folks are swapping 4bt crate motors in without issues.

 

[Dilldog]

From what I see, most folks are swapping 4bt crate motors in without issues.

Yeah, the Wagoneers have an extremely soft frame, you can literally bend it with a 12" crescent wrench. Me personally I wouldnt trust it with much more than the AMC V-8s without it torquing too much. The J trucks have a MUCH stouter frame, more in line with what Ford and Chevys had.
That being said, I would still go with a Benzo diesel, much lighter weight, better fuel economy and just as much performance. Honestly having played with Benzo diesels now if I were to swap ANYTHING except something that was going to tow a lot an OM 616 or 606 would be the top two engines to find. Most would go for the 606 I think as they make signifigantly more power ( can easily be made to peak 500HP without changing any hard parts), but i really like the old 5 cylinder 616s, some injectors and pump tuned by Diesel Maken and a 200 series Holset turbo and your making 250hp, and you get that cool/ weird high RPM 5 cylinder sound. Let me tell you, one of those things running at governed speed (5100rpm) sounds wild.
Edit to Add: The only downside to the OM616 is the later models have an injection pump with a vacuum controlled governor in it that scares US diesel shops, but there are still plenty of the mechanical pumps out there, most of wich are on pre 80 non turbo engines built to Federal Emissions standards.

 

[WareWolf MoonWall]

I ordered a black SofTopper last night for my Centurion. Very excited, I loved the SoftTopper I had on my 2015 Ram 1500.

 

[OTH Overland]

I agree with @M Rose about the Raptor/Rhino liner, I did a color matched Raptor liner job on my 2000 WJ Grand Cherokee. Its awesome and the car is a rebuilt total where there are still millions of them around, not likely to have any real value in my lifetime though..lol I have my 1991 F250 SuperCab that I am the second owner on and have turned over the odometer a bunch of times. I never plan on getting rid of this truck for sentimental reasons (Not to mention not a single computer in it and a five speed anti-theft device) but I never expected to see its value rise so fast. Thought about using a Raptor paint job because I can do it myself, and its super durable. But it also is almost impossible to remove and go back to regular paint, and more importantly just would not do the old iron justice in my opinion. Mine is in fantastic shape except for the paint falling off and light surface rust, we also had several quotes with the lowest being 25k for a standard two tone paint job. I worry about putting anything on top of the existing paint as the primer is the problem (Thank you Ford and early 90's paint) where it just did not bond with the paint. All shops have stated that it has to come down to bare metal and start over. Even my local Macco said they would not even consider doing any of their basic jobs. They said that if i removed all the trim and exterior goodies they would strip it, do any minor ding repair and due a two stage factory matched job for 5k. Think that is going to be the best option, as this will be my lifetime Sunday drive rig. Now it sits in a storage garage waiting for me to get my new shop built so I can tackle the mechanicl rebuild before giving her a pretty new paint job. Still think I am crazy for putting that much into a plain old truck, but they are just so cool, and the sound of the IDI diesel is so unique.