Will I hate not having a winch for Overland?

[Randy P]

Our main use for our 4Runner TRD Pro is as the wife's DD and our camping / adventuring vehicle. So, most of the planned upgrades are centered around increasing basic offroad capability (aggressive tires and probably a mild lift) and longevity (planning full skids and sliders, for example). So far, all of our offroading has been alone and unafraid, and I expect that will continue into the future.

That said, I am pretty sure we will always carry the 60" hi-lift when off pavement to any unknown location, and winching with one is certainly feasible with a good kit, if not obviously a bit tedious. However, the intent of all the planned recovery gear is, for us, more for emergency self recovery, rather than to enable us to actively seek overly-challenging trails and obstacles for 'wheelin's own sake. (Not knocking wheeling for fun, but we didn't buy this particular vehicle for that).

Given the winch might get used once or twice per year for self recovery, and would save maybe maybe an hour each time over using the Hi-Lift to winch out of a real bind (assuming jacking and packing wasn't the better solution), would you guys say the extra 150lbs and $1,500 (winch + hidden mount) to $3,000 (winch + Al bumper) is worth it? (Of course, I could buy a $300 HF winch and $500 mount, but I am not going to publicly admit that I have cobsidered such a blasphemous option :P ).

Honestly, the only time I can imagine a winch would be truly valuable to us is if we underestimate and try to pass through a long, muddied section of trail and get stuck in the middle with trees or embankments that prevent us from turning out. In that case, being able to winch 50+ feet without taking a long time would be pretty nice. Otherwise, I can imagine wanting to recover backwards just as often as forwards, where a front-mounted winch may or may not be helpful.




Thanks!

I've got a 76 CJ-7 with a 9000# front mounted winch. I also had a 91 Jeep YJ without a winch. Here's two stories. Both of these I was solo.....

I was driving my CJ into our cabin near Echo Summit after a snow storm. This is an unplowed dirt road, covered in several feet of snow. I was doing fine until I ran into a drifted section and the Jeep bottomed out. No forward or reverse traction. This is with lockers front and rear mind you. I pulled out the winch cable and after pulling from a variety of trees I was able get through the drift and continue on into the cabin. Without the winch I would have been there a LONG time with a shovel.... The trip out I started slipping down hill towards the frozen stream. The road runs along the stream, and in this part there is a pretty steep slope. Out comes the winch again and pulled myself back up onto level ground.

Fast forward to summer time and I was driving the YJ. I had scouted out a river crossing and found the shallowest part. I made it across the river fine, but (previously invisible to me) a submerged tree stump on the opposing embankment stopped my forward progress just as I was starting to climb out of the water. Unfortunately, I was also unable to reverse out of it. Fast moving water and sandy conditions are not favorable to stopped vehicle tires. I broke out the Hi-Lift jack and jumped into the thigh deep snow melt river. After about an hour, and several cycles of jacking up the Jeep, placing rocks under tires, or just pushing the Jeep over off the jack onto a more stable surface, I was able to back out and exit the way I had entered the river. Very wet, and very cold....

Both of these stories ended with my being able to free myself from the predicament and continue on safely. You just have to decide which style of experience you want. Bear in mind, that a front mounted winch works best pulling forward. One on the YJ might not have got me past the submerged tree stump in the river and up the embankment. But we'll never know!

Also know that all that winching overwhelmed my stock alternator and exhausted my single battery. That was fine. As long as my engine was running I could wait for the alternator to re-charge the battery enough to winch some more. I would have been in a very bad place if the engine would have died for some reason. I very quickly invested in a high-amp alternator and dual batteries.

Randy

 

[9Mike2]

Good point-counter point, This is the point I was trying to make, be prepared, with or without a winch, but they sure come in handy...

 

[buckwilk]

I travel the western U.S. in a Dodge Cummins 4x4 towing an XJ. 10,000 to 12,000 mi. every summer by myself. I set up base camps and wheel from there. I don't have a winch and haven't for years. As with everything overlanding comes down to what you are comfortable with. Knowledge and experience can solve most issues. I have used a HiLift to winch and it works quite well! Get out, enjoy life and leave no trace.

 

[Mike W]

Im planning on getting an arb bumper early next year. ill get a winch also, but for me the main reason is animal strike protection. Ive hit so many deer over the years, it's annoying.

I aspire to go on some adventures that could require a winch (or at least help someone im with).

 

[000]

Though a winch is certainly not necessary, hi lift winching can be done safely though slow. It really comes down to what you are planning on doing with your rig and then adding the worse case scenario to that. For some the worse case scenario is getting stuck in sand, then a set of max traxx type devices is probably plenty. Some people only travel with a group, then a winch probably isn't entirely necessary. Some do radical rock trails then it probably should be high on the list. If you think that you are leaning towards eventually getting one, get it when you do suspension modifications, otherwise you'll be redoing your front suspension, with coilovers you can usually adjust for it, but you might need heavier springs, with other lifts you'll need new spacers or springs, alignment etc... either way doing expensive stuff twice sucks and you'd probably be halfway to paying for a winch setup. I don't use mine very often, but it's relatively cheap insurance for the places I like to go. It has saved me a lot of time and effort trying to get out of a spot and potentially breaking other parts trying too hard. There are trails I decided to try that I might not have because I knew that I could more safely get myself out. My wife and I tend to go on most trips alone so I like to be as prepared as reasonably possible. Honestly I've probably used my winch to help others way more often than myself, and it is a whole lot safer and controlled to winch a stuck vehicle out than yank on it with the vehicle you are relying on. Even for moving a downed tree it's a nice thing to have to save time, effort and to do it safely. I went with a us off-road hidden winch mount on my Tacoma that was way cheaper and lighter than a heavy bumper and looks clean, because my rig is also my daily driver. If you are getting a winch for even very occasional use I wouldn't go cheap, a warn m8000 is a pretty bulletproof winch especially compared to the harbor freight junk and can be found for about $600 which isn't much compared to damaging a nice trd pro 4Runner trying to get out of something with other methods. My last 2 cents is if you do get a winch, read the instructions thoroughly and practice winching before you need to use it in a real situation.


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[slomatt]

There are hidden costs to adding a winch. In addition to the winch and bumper you'll also need accessories such as a tree saver, shackles, snatch block, line damper, gloves, etc. These all cost money and add weight to your rig. You also might want to consider upgrading to a synthetic line. One way to keep the cost down is to purchase a reliable used winch such as a Warn M8000.

Adding a winch also pretty noticeably effects how your truck drives since you are hanging a lot of weight out at the very front of the truck. I noticed a lot more front end dive, even with an upgraded front suspension designed for the extra weight.

The problem with overlanding is that it tends towards bringing along everything including the kitchen sink, which results in a light wallet and getting close to or exceeding to GVWR of the vehicle which is a safety issue.

Personally I went 10+ years before adding a winch to my truck. I pretty much always go with at least 1 other rig, and a winch definitely came in handy on trails like the Rubicon, but we used recovery straps much more often. I've also been part of 2 recoveries of rolled vehicles and winches were very helpful. But, both of those situations were easily avoidable if the drivers had been paying attention to what they were doing. In the ~7 years that I have had a winch on my 4Runner I've never had to use it, and only have been winched once by someone else. All of these situations were on difficult trails that would be classified as "rock crawling" and not "overlanding".


If you plan to go offroad alone (no other trucks) on difficult trails or in areas with lots of mud, sand, or snow then a winch is probably a good idea. Otherwise, I'd put it pretty low down on the list of important mods. Driving smart and thinking through obstacles before driving through them will get you a lot farther than a winch will.

- Matt

 

[professorkx]

I tend to gravitate towards more difficult trails, and have had a winch on my jeeps for decades. Used every winch to get me out of trouble. One one trip, another rig stripped his spider gears in the rear differential miles in the woods in deep snow in December. I attached my jeep to his jeep and we winched over 100 times over 14 hours to get his rig back to a road on which he could drive. big storm came in two days later and would have buried his jeep for the winter had we not winched him to safety.

If you winch alone and tend to take difficult trails, buy a winch. I spend a week in Moab each year, and every rig has a winch...and we used them every year.

 

[Jeff Graham]

Lots of great information in this thread. From my personal experience: I have used my Winch much more for moving downed tees (and other obstacles) out of the trail, then for recovery.

I could have done this task with a HiLift, but a winch is much faster. In many cases, it was the difference of making it to our intended destination for a good night sleep, or sleeping (uncomfortably) on a hillside.

The extra physical exertion, would nessesitate even more work, setting up my shower nightly. All this, in my mind, detracts from the enjoyment of the edventure.

I consider my winch, not a necessity, but a vital tool. It increases the probability that I will enjoy the adventure more. Most trips it goes unused. But when it is used, saves time and energy, for more enjoyable aspects of Overlanding.

 

[professorkx]

My winch lets me take more chances, as I know I can rescue myself. I've even winched myself out backwards on 4 occasions when I went down the wrong trail. I ran the winch rope under the middle of the jeep, under the axles, through a D ring on the back bumper to ensure my winch pull was in the correct direction, and then to the winch strap that was connected to a tree. Not good for the winch rope, but good for getting me safely back to a viable trail.

I should also note that I also carry an Echo battery chain saw. Two weeks ago, we went down the wrong trail that quickly became overgrown, and the trail had washed away in a corner. It was time to turn around, so I pulled the chainsaw and cleared a section of growth next to the hill...took an hour. Backed the jeep into the clearing and turned it around.

As others have noted, it really depends upon how extreme your adventures. The more extreme, the more a winch becomes required equipment, and for me, a winch, a welder and a chainsaw are required equipment... but then again, I also carry enough supplies to get stranded for more than a week and not need assistance, including a full trauma kit and Personal Locator Beacon...

 

[Lindenwood]

I had kinda forgotten about this thread! I actually built a winching kit for my 60" Hi Lift that can move 30 feet at a time. My original thought was that I could technically winch myself out of most any realistic situation that Id find myself in. I used to wheel in my old Samurai several times a week, and got most all the "hey Skeeter, watch this!" out of my system with that, hah. So, now I dont go out looking for mud or big mounds.

Still, what sold me on the winch was the thought of having to spend 4 or 5 times as long winching in unpleasant conditions. In the worst case, I realized I didnt like the idea of spending an hour hand-winching in wet snow or scorching sun. I will still keep the winching kit around for an additional option to winch backwards or to winch from multiple points (like to apply tension so I dont slide sideways down a hill). But, the Smittybuilt went on yesterday!

I still need to add plates for aesthetics, but the structure of the bunper is complete.

 

[Lindenwood]

Howdy, friends.

I got a chance to do a basic comparison test between winching with the hi-lift and winching with an actual winch.

Bottom Line Up Front:
Including setup and tear-down, I spent 13 minutes with the hi-lift recovery versus about 4.5-5 minutes with the winch (including partially re-spooling the cable).

I backed my vehicle over the steep side of a creek to simulate being stuck (though, I am honestly not sure Id have been able to climb out on my own with my current open diffs, heh). Then, I winched myself out with my hi-lift, and with a single-line pull from my Smitty.

It took two complete runs of the hi-lift mechanism up the beam to ensure I was fully out of the creek.

Finding 1: The setup and tear-down of the jack winching kit adds about 3 or 4 total minutes to the actual recovery process (removing the jack and chains, assembling the kit, then putting it all back in place), versus about 60-90 seconds to pull out the winch remote and unspool the cable. This does not count setting up the anchor end.

Finding 2: The actual winching process took less than 1 minute for the Smitty, vs about 6 for the hi-lift. This checks with an estimated 12-14 FPM for the winch with a middle-weight load, and about 1.5-2fpm for the hi-lift.

Finding 3: Yes, winching with a hi-lift is pretty hard work! I do have a short piece of 3/8 synthetic winch extension line coming tomorrow so that I could use it with my snatch and the jack. This would theoretically allow me to winch up to 12 ft with half the bodily strain, but would require a good bit of care in rigging to put everything in the right place. Of note, understanding how the jack works, I did not need to be or feel like I was in a position where I could have been hurt by the handle (I find it much easier to get into such a potentially-dangerous position while vertically lifting a vehicle).

Conclusion: Inconclusive, for me at least. For just goin' out a'wheelin', the winch seems to add a lot of convenience when you are deliberately attacking obstacles. However, I will say, all 3 times I have used it in the last couple weeks since the install, (twice to rescue a friend and once to drag a fallen tree off the trail), I could have just as easily, [more] quickly, and safely used my snatch straps and winch extensions. Thus, if one is conservative enough when wheeling to not do hard obstacles alone, then I still think one could get by with a decent set of recovery straps and a hi-lift winching kit.

I guess, really, now owning and having compared the two options, I still wouldnt place the electric winch any higher on my list of priorities. And, honestly, I am still debating whether to keep it on there at all (mostly because the line got a nice kink on the 2nd wrap during its 2nd recovery, which means I need to replace the line).

Also of note, I really wish Id have used 5/16 chain instead of 3/8 chain. It is a joke how much people stress about working load limit on shackles and chains, but then use a 5/16 steel cable with a real WLL of about 2500lbs just because its breaking strength is usually around 10k (and thus technically higher than the winch motor!...). Anyways, 5/16 G70 chain has a WLL of over 4500lb (also the shear bolt strength for the jack...), and a minimum breaking strength of almost 19,000 lbs. So yeah, Id have been totally fine with 5/16 chain, especially since I dont use it for vehicle-to-vehicle recoveries. It would then take up a bit less storage space and weigh 15lbs less than my current 3/8 chain.

Picture is about half way through the hi-lift recovery. Both times, I started with the gas tank skid touching the edge of the bank amd the rear bumper partially submerged.

 

[Lindenwood]

Thought about it some more, and I'm keeping the winch. My back is still a little sore from that day :P . About to order a synthetic line.

 

[NotGumby]

Nice write-up Lindenwood. Thanks!


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[Lindenwood]

Well, it sure was handy today to drag myself out of a big ol bowl of "suck your shoes right off your feet" mud! Admittedly, I was absolutely asking for it; I had gone around it earlier, and on my way back I had one of those "hey skeeter, watch this!" moments. But, maybe 10 or 12 minutes later and I was out, with no shoveling, jacking, cranking, or messing with traction mats. So, while I could have gotten out with other methods, this certainly was convenient!

*ETA: Also, to ne honest, I likely wouldnt have tried it without having a winch :P

(Not trying to spam; I just want to add further conclusions to these threads in case somebody finds it in the future).

 

[RedRob]

Just read this whole thread and no one mentioned a come-a-long. I’ve got a Wyeth More Power Puller. About $350. I keep it in a tool box. 3 ton rating, 35’ of synthetic line. Not as good as a winch, but I think way better than winching with my HiLift. Although I’ve never had to winch with either, I have used the HiLift for recovery.

I maintain that in my experience, no offense to anyone, the people who have winches tend to put themselves into situations where they need winches. Is it good insurance? Absolutely! But it seems to serve a lot as a safety net for people who want to try a little more than they would have otherwise.