Wilderness Sked - Ham from camp with others in your area via NVIS

[moonpatrol]

TLDR - Proposing a regular evening meeting time/place (NVIS, 80m) so we can check in from camp with others in our region. Any interest?

OK, so I’ve got the standard issue Baofeng VHF, and it’s fine for the group trip but…I kept thinking: how cool would it be to set up camp, deploy an antenna, and check in with others in the region? This is possible with 40-80m HF frequencies, low power, and simple antennas.

The last time I was in Death Valley and PapaDave was leading a large group 60 miles away over some hills, it would have been pretty cool to check in with them. Or talk tips/advice/whatever from people within the region in general.

The key attributes here: this is *not* the standard home-station, ham general chat, long-distance operating mode. It’s all about nearby (like within a couple hundred miles radius), and primarily for people those who are out in the wilderness (or just want to check in with those people).

There’s quite a bit to figure out, and I am no expert, so consider this just a starting point. I’m planning a trip soon to Big Bear area in SoCal so will be sure to tune in and see if anyone’s around!

The basic parameters I’m thinking:

• Time: Daily. Local sunset + 1.5h rounded (currently 8:00pm in southern california)
• Mode: SSB, NVIS targeting <300mi
• Frequency: Start at 80m targeting near 3900khz: 3890khz
• Antenna: high launch angle (simple low dipole/efhw/etc.)
• Gear guidance: tbd (see below)

Time:
This is a tough one. A lot of us will be on the move for a lot of the day, and then pretty busy getting situated. So it seems tough to propose a regular daytime time. Night will probably be more camp-friendly, and a bit more reliable overall. Daytime has some other downsides, but could probably be done.

Since this is NVIS I thought it would make sense to link timing to the specific area. Not sure how much after sunset will be needed for reliability.. maybe more than 1.5h. Alternatively is to set a fixed time for each region and update it through seasons but that sounds tricky.

There may not be anyone there at that time, but the bad should stay open through the evening, so it would be easy to leave the radio on and monitor while doing camp stuff.

Mode:
I think being able to communicate in the immediate area (<100mi) is priority #1. That might sound easy but believe it or not that can be tricky to do reliably. Conditions lately (US-West) require evening frequencies typically <4MHz. Targeting local communications is the realm of NVIS and emergency communications, and is a good skill to have. Coverage may extend 0-300+mi depending on conditions, power, etc. The hardest part is getting that first 50mi.

Get an idea of requirements for NVIS freqs near your location here: https://hamwaves.com/nvis/en/index.html

Frequency: (edit; better freq thanks to KJ7MFV)
3890khz is the current thinking based on availability within the General license band. May need to consider going lower for FoF2 as we head towards winter.

Antenna:
NVIS requires takeoff pretty much straight up, so a vertical isn’t going to work. There are plenty of extremely light, packable, inexpensive options that will work great. A dipole/inverted V with the center up 15-20’ is what I’m planning on. Check out SOTA/POTA for lots of portable options.

Gear Guidance:
I’d like to put together guidance for people getting started that makes it easy to join. Would be best to prove out reliable, simple, and robust options. There are some known-standard rigs and conventions for most of this already. The landscape is changing now so I think the entry-point can be very accessible.

 

[M Rose]

TLDR - Proposing a regular evening meeting time/place (NVIS, 80m) so we can check in from camp with others in our region. Any interest?

OK, so I’ve got the standard issue Baofeng VHF, and it’s fine for the group trip but…I kept thinking: how cool would it be to set up camp, deploy an antenna, and check in with others in the region? This is possible with 40-80m HF frequencies, low power, and simple antennas.

The last time I was in Death Valley and PapaDave was leading a large group 60 miles away over some hills, it would have been pretty cool to check in with them. Or talk tips/advice/whatever from people within the region in general.

The key attributes here: this is *not* the standard home-station, ham general chat, long-distance operating mode. It’s all about nearby (like within a couple hundred miles radius), and primarily for people those who are out in the wilderness (or just want to check in with those people).

There’s quite a bit to figure out, and I am no expert, so consider this just a starting point. I’m planning a trip soon to Big Bear area in SoCal so will be sure to tune in and see if anyone’s around!

The basic parameters I’m thinking:

• Time: Daily. Local sunset + 1.5h rounded (currently 8:00pm in southern california)
• Mode: SSB, NVIS targeting <300mi
• Frequency: Start at 80m targeting near 3900khz: 3946khz
• Antenna: high launch angle (simple low dipole/efhw/etc.)
• Gear guidance: tbd (see below)

Time:
This is a tough one. A lot of us will be on the move for a lot of the day, and then pretty busy getting situated. So it seems tough to propose a regular daytime time. Night will probably be more camp-friendly, and a bit more reliable overall. Daytime has some other downsides, but could probably be done.

Since this is NVIS I thought it would make sense to link timing to the specific area. Not sure how much after sunset will be needed for reliability.. maybe more than 1.5h. Alternatively is to set a fixed time for each region and update it through seasons but that sounds tricky.

There may not be anyone there at that time, but the bad should stay open through the evening, so it would be easy to leave the radio on and monitor while doing camp stuff.

Mode:
I think being able to communicate in the immediate area (<100mi) is priority #1. That might sound easy but believe it or not that can be tricky to do reliably. Conditions lately (US-West) require evening frequencies typically <4MHz. Targeting local communications is the realm of NVIS and emergency communications, and is a good skill to have. Coverage may extend 0-300+mi depending on conditions, power, etc. The hardest part is getting that first 50mi.

Get an idea of requirements for NVIS freqs near your location here: https://hamwaves.com/nvis/en/index.html

Frequency:
3946khz is a random suggestion. I just wanted something in the General license band. The 46 came just as a nod to the 2M freq 146.46. Honestly it might be better to drop a bit for more headroom verses increasingly low FoF2 as we head towards winter… 3846khz for instance.

Antenna:
NVIS requires takeoff pretty much straight up, so a vertical isn’t going to work. There are plenty of extremely light, packable, inexpensive options that will work great. A dipole/inverted V with the center up 15-20’ is what I’m planning on. Check out SOTA/POTA for lots of portable options.

Gear Guidance:
I’d like to put together guidance for people getting started that makes it easy to join. Would be best to prove out reliable, simple, and robust options. There are some known-standard rigs and conventions for most of this already. The landscape is changing now so I think the entry-point can be very accessible.

The only thing I see wrong is other this idea is that 80m goes long after sunset… at the times you proposed on the frequencies you list, there are several Cali-Colorado nets going on. I get on them plain as day up here at my QTH running an EFHW sloper to 60’… below 3.890 is pretty much open at these times even listing in to several online SDRs not much going on, above 3.900 is packed.

 

[moonpatrol]

The only thing I see wrong is other this idea is that 80m goes long after sunset… at the times you proposed on the frequencies you list, there are several Cali-Colorado nets going on. I get on them plain as day up here at my QTH running an EFHW sloper to 60’… below 3.890 is pretty much open at these times even listing in to several online SDRs not much going on, above 3.900 is packed.

Makes sense! So 3.890 sounds like the leading contender but additional feedback welcome of course.

Using SDRs to check things out is a great idea--I'll start monitoring in the 3890 range. I haven't done much on 80m (as you can tell) due to space, but shouldn't be much of a problem in the wilderness.

One other question for the pros: I've heard this sort of timing/guidelines called a "Sked" vs. a Net before.. not sure if that is accurate? Kind of more just operating guidelines and schedule?

 

[M Rose]

A Sked is an informal round robin rag chew. A net typically has a control station that directs the conversation.

 

[Overlanding Lawyer]

I'm in Georgia, long way for NVIS, but you never know?? I'll listen out and see if you can copy.. Great idea to help folks understand the hobby - 73's K1EOD

 

[M Rose]

Another problem I see with this is most hams here on OB aren’t wanting/willing to get their General License… there are only a handful of us that are General/Extra Class License holders, so it might not get very much traction.

 

[Prerunner1982]

One other question for the pros: I've heard this sort of timing/guidelines called a "Sked" vs. a Net before.. not sure if that is accurate? Kind of more just operating guidelines and schedule?

A sked is a prearranged/scheduled QSO, could be a group or a 1on1 and could be a ragchew or a quick QSO to confirm a contact.
A Net has a net controller that controls the net by taking check-ins, advising who's turn it is to talk, etc.

 

[moonpatrol]

I updated the title to be Sked because that seems more appropriate. Since it will hopefully be a very local thing often without many participants (for now!), it probably doesn't need the overhead (and availability) of a net controller. My expectation is that I'll probably call for contacts at 8pm or whatever and not get any (local) for now, but will leave the receiver on for the evening.

Also, I've been monitoring around 3.890 per Mike's suggestion and it does seem fairly clear so far (at least from KFS SDR and the Northern Utah SDR). That region does seem to be regularly used for AM nets and there may have been a very weak carrier coming through nearby, but good so far. I can't believe how busy it was in 75m overall! Radiating straight up means we can probably minimize dx footprint (and probably even use QRP).

Another problem I see with this is most hams here on OB aren’t wanting/willing to get their General License… there are only a handful of us that are General/Extra Class License holders, so it might not get very much traction.

I agree it might be a little quiet at first. I can say that for me, the idea of being able to communicate in a useful way from wilderness (or in emcomm situation) was a big motivator to upgrade to General. A lot of people on here got their Tech just to join various convoys on 2m.

Basic HF gear and the knowledge for General is really eye-opening and powerful stuff that you don't really learn for Tech. It's way fun, and being able to do self-sufficient camp-to-camp or even camp-to-home comms would add a great dimension. Just need to get other camps on! And if nobody is on locally you've already got your gear out so you can do normal fun HF stuff.

For anyone curious about what would be needed to upgrade from Tech and what gear is needed: it's not very hard to get a General license, and the gear could be as simple as a $270 HF radio and a (really) long wire antenna you extend once in camp. Of course there are a ton of options and you could spend as much as you want. Regardless I'm certain this community will help answer any questions and help you get licensed and set up. Honestly you could learn a ton of the General material just by observing/participating in someone else doing it while at camp.

 

[moonpatrol]

I took some new gear out to Anza Borrego this weekend to try operating in the timing/freq discussed. Gear involved was:

• mchf QRP SDR transceiver (~10W)
• SOTABeams 7m telescopic mast
• SOTABeams linked-dipole 20-80m

No very close contacts (<100mi) but that was not expected having not set scheduled contacts in advance. That said, got on the air no problem and at max power QSOs in central and northern CA were reporting 5x9 or better. At 5W signals were more variable but could be doable if needed. 20-100W would clearly be plenty of power for this sort of regional mode, and I bet 10W will be reasonable consistent as well depending on conditions. Minor note: antenna was inverted-V with ends about 1' off the ground.. very non-ideal to have ends that low but tricky in that desert location.

Other take-aways and idea:

• As Mike said, it may be unrealistic to expect many contacts within a very tight NVIS radius
• Maybe a regional HF Net would be more appropriate, perhaps on 20 or 40m
• Would be a controlled Net at a regular weekly time
• Nearby interested stations checking-in could always break off to 75m/regional

So in that case I'm wondering if maybe I should just propose we try out a regional HF Net to start? Not sure how to target geographically--I'm wondering if OB's US-West might be too large geographically to be practical?

 

[M Rose]

I took some new gear out to Anza Borrego this weekend to try operating in the timing/freq discussed. Gear involved was:

• mchf QRP SDR transceiver (~10W)
• SOTABeams 7m telescopic mast
• SOTABeams linked-dipole 20-80m

No very close contacts (<100mi) but that was not expected having not set scheduled contacts in advance. That said, got on the air no problem and at max power QSOs in central and northern CA were reporting 5x9 or better. At 5W signals were more variable but could be doable if needed. 20-100W would clearly be plenty of power for this sort of regional mode, and I bet 10W will be reasonable consistent as well depending on conditions. Minor note: antenna was inverted-V with ends about 1' off the ground.. very non-ideal to have ends that low but tricky in that desert location.

Other take-aways and idea:

• As Mike said, it may be unrealistic to expect many contacts within a very tight NVIS radius
• Maybe a regional HF Net would be more appropriate, perhaps on 20 or 40m
• Would be a controlled Net at a regular weekly time
• Nearby interested stations checking-in could always break off to 75m/regional

So in that case I'm wondering if maybe I should just propose we try out a regional HF Net to start? Not sure how to target geographically--I'm wondering if OB's US-West might be too large geographically to be practical?

I would do regional on 80… 20m is the DX band… 40m is similar to 80 in propagation, but I haven’t worked it enough to know where im going.
Right now 11;00 pm pacific, I’m Getting stations from BRitish Columbia to New Jersey and everything in between. I’m running an 80m OCFD as an inverted V with the apex at 40’ sloping down to 8’ on each end.

Let me fire up 40 and see what I get

 

[M Rose]

I’m picking up too many commercial broadcast stations on 40 here at my QTH, I do a lot better in the woods on 40.

 

[Prerunner1982]

I’m picking up too many commercial broadcast stations on 40 here at my QTH, I do a lot better in the woods on 40.

Above 7.200MHz is Commercial broadcast outside of Region 2 so this is not unusual. During the day 40m is more regional but at night when the band goes long you can hear the broadcast stations from other parts of the World so it's not so much QTH vs the woods.

 

[M Rose]

Above 7.200MHz is Commercial broadcast outside of Region 2 so this is not unusual. During the day 40m is more regional but at night when the band goes long you can hear the broadcast stations from other parts of the World so it's not so much QTH vs the woods.

Correct…. The QTH problem is below 7.2 I have so much RFI the band is useless to me. Also it doesn’t help that I have an AM broadcast station 1/4 mile from my QTH that is producing severe sparious emissions (we in the area have put in numerous complaints and nothing has been done except to be told “yup we know we have a problem and nope we aren’t going to fix it”).

So for me that’s why it’s a woods vs QTH thing for me…