When does cost of a vehicle to build matter to you?

[bmwguru]

Its not my fault the industry has that stigma attached to it. Ive had the worst luck with shops working on any of my stuff. I can count on one hand with fingers left over how many places i trust to even check the air pressure in my tires.

Theres only one place here close to me now i trust and its a mom and pop independent place on the other side of town. They do good work and its where i go to have stuff i don't have time to do done.

That's unfortunate and you are correct it is not your fault. I work my butt off and do good and honest work. I just get frustrated that I get tossed into that stigma. At least you have found a place you can trust. That's all that matters.

 

[Downs]

I may have painted with too broad a brush and i apologize for that. Not all techs are that way obviously.

 

[bmwguru]

I may have painted with too broad a brush and i apologize for that. Not all techs are that way obviously.

No worries and no offense taken. I completely understand.

 

[KonzaLander]

I suspect I am in the general minority here and choose to only pay cash for a vehicle. My long distance, long trip rig is a 1999 Land Cruiser with 320,000 miles that I personally maintain to a fault. I cannot think of a new vehicle I would trust more than the one I know inside-out and am in tune to every quirk it has. Even my wife requests we take the old Land Cruiser when traveling instead of the Outback we bought her new a couple of years ago. I don't know what would cause me to seek another rig, but the outrageously priced Land Cruiser brake booster assembly wasn't it...

 

[MazeVX]

See thats why rigs, new and old break down. You don't need any of that, you just need a good shop/mechanic to service it twice a year. I don't touch my 14 year old Jeep, I just take it to a professional often. My previous Wrangler was 25 years old when I sold it. Even for oil changes, it goes to the shop because he also checks the driveline, brakes, steering, lighting.....

So I do some things on my own and others get done by professionals, it's a way that works. The thing is that most vehicle owners don't really care and when you buy used cars here, you usually have a lot things to do that ok left undone and common maintenance doesn't catch up with.
Don't forget, I'm living in a different world, there are very few offroad shops here, there are very few mechanics here that you can trust with a wrangler and so on...

 

[Specter]

I purchased my 4Runner new, and for the purpose of using it as a dedicated adventure vehicle. My decision was based on the following:
1) I wanted a clean slate to design my build.
2) Vehicle maintenance and repair is not my strong suit, so I wanted something that I could rely on mechanically from the start, but learn on as I go and it ages.
3) I don’t intend on abusing the vehicle. I’m not into rock crawling or pushing the capability limits of my vehicle. For me it’s about pushing my own limits, not my rigs. With that, I wasn’t too concerned with jeopardizing the investment of a new vehicle.
4) I added the price of a crappy commuter car to my new vehicle purchase and the cost was reasonable, so I bought both. This gave me the freedom to build my rig as I saw fit with no regard to daily driving, and the ability to save more money during my daily commutes.
5) Finally, the purchase brought more value than it did financial stress. Adventuring is personal, yet something I can share with my wife and with my sons. The value of having a resource that brings me happiness, and experiences and opportunities that bring my family together and teaches my sons life skills far outweighs the cost of the car note each month. I love the overland community, thinking about and researching the next modification or trip and talking about all of it with friends. To me, worth every penny.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I think the answer to the question also depends on a person's priorities.

If you prioritize never having to turn a wrench in anger, and not having to do any repair is what defines 'reliable', then a new vehicle is more likely to give you a rig that you never need to work on beyond the usual oil changes, accessory installs, etc. If it throws a code or has a part break, that would be an 'unreliable' vehicle in some people's eyes.

If you prioritize reliability from a bush mechanic perspective -- in other words, a simple machine that can be fixed with basic tools with minimal electronics involved in the Fuel/Air/Spark magic, then an older used vehicle might actually be preferable.

Both buyers will claim that their vehicle is "reliable", but the word means different things to these different people.

 

[oldmopars]

While I am an advocate for the older and simple rigs, there is an advantage to new stuff. The aftermarket lives and breaths new vehicles. Trying to find aftermarket stuff for older vehicles is near impossible, they dropped that stuff years ago or the companies are newer than the vehicle you drive and don't go back that far.
This means that if you like the simplicity of the older trucks/SUV's you will need to be creative and able to adapt and improvise, good skills to have in this arena.
However if you want to just open your wallet and buy whatever stuff you want and be able to just bolt it on with nothing more than hand tools, you may have to go with vehicles that are fairly new.
For my old Suburban I can get any part I need to keep it running far into the future, but as for aftermarket overlanding stuff, nothing exists, nada, bupkiss. If I want it, I have to make or adapt something from another rig.
I am lucky though, as far as suspension and drive train, I can get tons of aftermarket stuff. However depending on the older vehicle you chose, this may not be the case for you.
If you have the money, the new stuff is a lot "easier".

 

[TJDon]

While I am an advocate for the older and simple rigs, there is an advantage to new stuff. The aftermarket lives and breaths new vehicles. Trying to find aftermarket stuff for older vehicles is near impossible, they dropped that stuff years ago or the companies are newer than the vehicle you drive and don't go back that far.
This means that if you like the simplicity of the older trucks/SUV's you will need to be creative and able to adapt and improvise, good skills to have in this arena.
However if you want to just open your wallet and buy whatever stuff you want and be able to just bolt it on with nothing more than hand tools, you may have to go with vehicles that are fairly new.
For my old Suburban I can get any part I need to keep it running far into the future, but as for aftermarket overlanding stuff, nothing exists, nada, bupkiss. If I want it, I have to make or adapt something from another rig.
I am lucky though, as far as suspension and drive train, I can get tons of aftermarket stuff. However depending on the older vehicle you chose, this may not be the case for you.
If you have the money, the new stuff is a lot "easier".

And to elaborate on having an old Chevy, finding just about anything to keep it running can be found in just about anywhere here in the northern hemisphere. Shoot, Chevy small blocks are like finding sombreros in Mexico. They’re everywhere

 

[grubworm]

shopping for a vehicle is the same as shopping for a woman...you want reliability, low maintenance, low mileage, and preferably as new as model as possible. due to reliability concerns, i stay away from blondes and jeeps...especially if either one has had after market modifications

 

[Captstout]

One word: Honda.
View attachment 115482
In all seriousness, though, yeah there comes a point where the vehicle is just getting so long in the tooth that it's having so many costly problems that you might as well sell or scrap it and buy something newer that has a solid track record of reliability. I plan to spend some money on my rig yet, but eventually there may come a point where the repairs are just too much. Perhaps if I blew the engine and or tranny, but even then, I might just buy another engine and keep er going.

I think the big question is, is it worth it to you? Is there another, newer vehicle that you like as much as your current one that will be more economical in the long run than a beat up junker that's falling apart. If not, maybe keep fixing the old girl. If yes, then there comes a point where you should cut your losses and move on to something newer and more reliable.

I have an 05 Pilot. My wife and I love this car. It has taken us places one would not think it could get to (safely, and my driving skills are moderate). We are going to replace it in the next...year...ish. More than likely with a 4runner.

I love our pilot. Just wish it had a low range.

 

[JDGreens]

I like this thread. Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[Dustinfromohio]

In my previous job I managed a large fleet (100+) of heavy duty aerial lifts, F750s, internationals, etc. Expenses were calculated weekly for each piece of equipment and categorized as fixed (your payment), maintenance, and fuel. After a few years of collecting data and trial and error, I eventually came to the following conclusions. 1. that new vehicles weren’t very profitable and neither were extremely old vehicles but there was a sweet spot of a few years when the equipment was paid off and maintenance expenses hadn’t started to climb yet. 2. that every now and then I would get a truck that constantly needed repairs and we could never keep it rolling no matter how much we sunk into it. When you get one of those offload it immediately. 3. Diesel trucks always cost more than gas.

Applying that knowledge to OB, avoid the “born losers”, buy gently used, replace when maintenance costs are similar to fixed costs. Just my two cents!

 

[bgenlvtex]

When is vehicle expense a concern? Always.

And you will always have it in one form or another. I built hot rods for many years, but they were also my daily driver, too many long nights I spent under one of them fixing them so I could go to work in it in the morning that was only a few hours away.

Then I walked away, and bought a new car, it wasn't a hotrod, it was however what I needed, costs were fixed to such a degree that I could budget and raise my family.

I still enjoy wrenching and fabrication work, but time is a scarce commodity, and MY time is something I value highly. "Building" is time consuming if it is nothing else, and is certainly not economical in any end. You will NEVER recover any significant portion of the money you put into it, and more importantly that most precious commodity TIME.

Buy right, buy a vehicle that has good residual value (Rubicon, Tacoma, 4Runner) that is capable in stock trim. Modify it lightly as actual need demands. Any of those three will take 85% of the population anywhere they really want to go, and will have a 70% or better residual in 3 years.

Buy right, cry once, avoid the urge to drag the credit card through the Quadratec catalog. Find the threshold of its capabilities as it is, have fun with it, don't turn it into a time bandit and money pit.

And just so you know, the 2020 Gladiator Rubicon is a fine, fine beast

 

[CR-Venturer]

I have an 05 Pilot. My wife and I love this car. It has taken us places one would not think it could get to (safely, and my driving skills are moderate). We are going to replace it in the next...year...ish. More than likely with a 4runner.

I love our pilot. Just wish it had a low range.

Yeah, I wish my CR-V had low range too. The cool thing is that the lowest two gears are actually extra-low, so they have more engine braking than the equivalent Civic, which is based on the same platform. It helps significantly, but low range would be preferable.

 

[1Louder]

Great discussion. My simple answer would be buy what you can afford. For some folks that’s a 10 yr old vehicle and others it’s a Unimog.

My long winded answer:
1. Buy what can do what you want it to do. For “Overlanding” a Subaru can do most of the popular trails out west.

2. Buy what you can afford. Most folks can’t pay cash for a vehicle. I would love a new ForeRunner but find the prices to be appalling. I love my 2011 FJ Cruiser. It has been paid off for 2-3 years. So I just have a maintenance fund. I wouldn’t want a payment over $400/month for 4 years so that means more down payment or less vehicle.

3. Buy what will be comfortable for you. I constantly don’t recommend the FJ to people because IMHO it’s rhe wrong vehicle for any family larger than 2. Yet we love it.

4. If you like to build and tinker buy something that allows you to do that. That may mean you doing all of the work or paying someone. I’m not a mechanic so that limits my choices. Paying someone to build an older rig would be more expensive than a new one.

I watch a lot of trailer videos and laugh at the negative comments like “why not sleep in a tent”, “I could build that for X dollars”, “I could get a bigger RV for less”, on and on. I’m sure the same happens on vehicle build videos. Good grief if you don’t like it shut your pie hole and move along. If you’re happy I’m happy. The internet has brought out a lot of negative people. Thankfully we don’t find that here 99% of the time.

My 2 cents which probably didn’t add a lot of value. I just try to live in the Buy What You Can Afford category. Some years I couldn’t afford to eat. Now life is better. My rig does everything I want it to do and more. It allows me to get out of most unplanned situations. I have never been permanently stuck.

Peace!

 

[Msfitoy]

shopping for a vehicle is the same as shopping for a woman...you want reliability, low maintenance, low mileage, and preferably as new as model as possible. due to reliability concerns, i stay away from blondes and jeeps...especially if either one has had after market modifications

You just described my wife and my 2019 Ranger LOL...don't forget good looks help

 

[smritte]

Good read.
I guess I'll throw my 2c in.
Like most of you, I tend to build and maintain my own rigs. Like some of you, I also spent a lifetime professionally wrenching.
Personally, I live to modify stuff. I choose something that fits my current platform and over time (while I use it) modify it into what I want. My specialty with GM was electronics. I got to watch all the manufactures go through a "learning curve" from the 80's through the 90's and into the 2000's when it came to electronics in cars. Because I was on the ground floor with this stuff, I'm very OCD on what I choose.
I have thrown money at a few different types of rigs trying to mold it into my version of what I want. What I hate is having to put money into a rig to fix the poor engineering done by the manufacture. I bet I spent several thousand dollars on my 04 TJ to make it correct. I purchased that because I was sick of reengineering my older Jeeps.
Now I've come full circle. Back to Toyota. My off-road rig is an older Cruiser and my every day is a new Tacoma. Most likely, those will be the last two vehicles I own. My cruiser has around 15k invested including a new motor and what I paid for it. My Tacoma (4WD SR5) is $290 a month.

My comment on the quality of technicians.
I started working for GM in 79. I had been going to school to get my EE degree but, life sometimes gets in the way. I find myself at a Chevy dealer. 4 year later, I'm a certified GM tech and I'm struggling. Back to school (part time nights). A few years later I finish and I realize, out of the 10 guys in the shop, only one actually knows what he's doing and its not me.

Fast forward to present. Finished my degree and now I teach. What I have learned over the years (and I pound this into my students) is, it doesn't matter what type of shop (independent, dealer) it's how the guy was trained and his attitude.

What you have is an industry where people think its easy to work on cars. Look into history. How much knowledge did you need to work on cars in the 40's. very little. He trains a guy in the 50's who trains a guy in the 60's.... and so on. Did any of them actually get proper training...NO.
When I read about people getting ripped off, I feel sorry for them. At the dealer, I had access to the latest equipment and the best info on what I was working on. I cringe when I think about PEP Boys or Firestone working on a newer vehicle. For example. On my TJ, I have the factory service manual. Its 2 main books and 5 supplement. It takes up about 8 inches of my book case. Go to an auto parts store and look at a manual. Its 1 inch thick, covers 5 years of TJ and Cherokee. The electronic versions (Mitchell, All Data, Shop key) are the same. How can you properly diagnose without the proper info. You Cant! Add in little or poor training in an environment where your not allowed to be wrong....ever.

Bottom line. How good is the technician? It depends on 1. his training 2. his environment (knowledge base and modern equipment) 3. attitude.

It may surprise some of you but in all my years, only a few people I have met, in my opinion, should be working on cars.
Remember. You need to be certified to cut hair. You don't need to be certified to do brakes....Brake's kill people! Bad hair just makes them angry.

Damn, did I just type all that.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

In my previous job I managed a large fleet (100+) of heavy duty aerial lifts, F750s, internationals, etc. Expenses were calculated weekly for each piece of equipment and categorized as fixed (your payment), maintenance, and fuel. After a few years of collecting data and trial and error, I eventually came to the following conclusions. 1. that new vehicles weren’t very profitable and neither were extremely old vehicles but there was a sweet spot of a few years when the equipment was paid off and maintenance expenses hadn’t started to climb yet. 2. that every now and then I would get a truck that constantly needed repairs and we could never keep it rolling no matter how much we sunk into it. When you get one of those offload it immediately. 3. Diesel trucks always cost more than gas.

Applying that knowledge to OB, avoid the “born losers”, buy gently used, replace when maintenance costs are similar to fixed costs. Just my two cents!

First of all I'd like to say, this thread should be titled OPINIONS. Some are good, others are bad, depending on your ability to know how to define good from bad - - - that's an OPINION as well !

@Dustinfromohio, This is very good advise for a commercial enterprise. I think us guys who have older rigs get rid of the money bombs except for the few die hard's that can pump enough money into one that it finally ends the problem. I'm guilty of that in years past. My experience with companies like the telephone company fleet vehicles, where, they assign you a vehicle and you drive it until it is a certain age , then they give you a new one a few years down the road is this.
The newest and best truck in the world can be trashed in only one year of use by many drivers. Even with regular maintenance some drivers continue to destroy their vehicle by their abusive driving habits. Those trucks require perpetual costly maintenance like brakes, transmissions, engines, a/c units, and tires. The drivers don't care, it's not their truck and they don't have to pay the repair bills. Other drivers love their trucks and take good care of them and I know one guy who almost cried when they took his truck away and gave him a new one. Finding that truck with the sweet spot is hard to find. If you can find it yes, buy it, drive it, maintain it, replace parts before they reach the point of no return, and you will have many years of economical OB adventures. Whatever you have to spend on repairs will be far less costly than buying a new rig IMO !

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Good read.
I guess I'll throw my 2c in.
Like most of you, I tend to build and maintain my own rigs. Like some of you, I also spent a lifetime professionally wrenching.
Personally, I live to modify stuff. I choose something that fits my current platform and over time (while I use it) modify it into what I want. My specialty with GM was electronics. I got to watch all the manufactures go through a "learning curve" from the 80's through the 90's and into the 2000's when it came to electronics in cars. Because I was on the ground floor with this stuff, I'm very OCD on what I choose.
I have thrown money at a few different types of rigs trying to mold it into my version of what I want. What I hate is having to put money into a rig to fix the poor engineering done by the manufacture. I bet I spent several thousand dollars on my 04 TJ to make it correct. I purchased that because I was sick of reengineering my older Jeeps.
Now I've come full circle. Back to Toyota. My off-road rig is an older Cruiser and my every day is a new Tacoma. Most likely, those will be the last two vehicles I own. My cruiser has around 15k invested including a new motor and what I paid for it. My Tacoma (4WD SR5) is $290 a month.

My comment on the quality of technicians.
I started working for GM in 79. I had been going to school to get my EE degree but, life sometimes gets in the way. I find myself at a Chevy dealer. 4 year later, I'm a certified GM tech and I'm struggling. Back to school (part time nights). A few years later I finish and I realize, out of the 10 guys in the shop, only one actually knows what he's doing and its not me.

Fast forward to present. Finished my degree and now I teach. What I have learned over the years (and I pound this into my students) is, it doesn't matter what type of shop (independent, dealer) it's how the guy was trained and his attitude.

What you have is an industry where people think its easy to work on cars. Look into history. How much knowledge did you need to work on cars in the 40's. very little. He trains a guy in the 50's who trains a guy in the 60's.... and so on. Did any of them actually get proper training...NO.
When I read about people getting ripped off, I feel sorry for them. At the dealer, I had access to the latest equipment and the best info on what I was working on. I cringe when I think about PEP Boys or Firestone working on a newer vehicle. For example. On my TJ, I have the factory service manual. Its 2 main books and 5 supplement. It takes up about 8 inches of my book case. Go to an auto parts store and look at a manual. Its 1 inch thick, covers 5 years of TJ and Cherokee. The electronic versions (Mitchell, All Data, Shop key) are the same. How can you properly diagnose without the proper info. You Cant! Add in little or poor training in an environment where your not allowed to be wrong....ever.

Bottom line. How good is the technician? It depends on 1. his training 2. his environment (knowledge base and modern equipment) 3. attitude.

It may surprise some of you but in all my years, only a few people I have met, in my opinion, should be working on cars.
Remember. You need to be certified to cut hair. You don't need to be certified to do brakes....Brake's kill people! Bad hair just makes them angry.

Damn, did I just type all that.

Very good post and I'm not going to disagree with anything you so kindly and accurately wrote. I don't even have anything to add because you covered the whole scene in one big blanket. Unusual for me ! Congratulations and thanks for this post.