Enthusiast III
When is trash not trash? Another thread here got me to thinking....when is trash not trash? Why are gnomes in the desert different from beer cans in the forest?
Trash is trash is trash...right?
- Thread starter GB Fraggle
- Start date
Chris In Milwaukee
Rank III
Enthusiast III
Off-Road Ranger I
I believe the organization of trash makes it either trash, art, or trashy art....lol
Pathfinder I
It's a perspective thing. Hundreds of years ago bored Native American kids drew pictures on the rocks and cave walls. We treasure them today and call it petroglyphs. When modern kids do it we call it vandalism. Who knows what they'll call our trash 200 years from now. Those gnomes may be in a museum.
Member III
I think the dividing line is whether it's the product of negligence or the product of "artistic expression".
That being said, I would certainly be just fine with any form of "debris" in natural areas being considered as trash and legally treated as such because the result is the same, regardless of the intent.
That being said, I would certainly be just fine with any form of "debris" in natural areas being considered as trash and legally treated as such because the result is the same, regardless of the intent.
Dave K
Rank IV
Off-Road Ranger I
Member III
If we continue to do this then you’ll have no more trails in 200 years because they will be filled with gnomes. This is how trails are closed because some land activist are going to look at it as vandalism. I do too to tell you the truth. “Pack it in, Pack it out” or “Leave it how you found it” type of mentality. I drove out to the trail to see the beauty of nature.
Off-Road Ranger I
I'll be in Mojave in 2 weeks.....you want me to clean them up?! [emoji6][emoji39][emoji848]
On another note, where the old bus was, I thought of starting a small yellow school bus shrine with hot wheels and die cast models. [emoji38][emoji23][emoji1787][emoji854]
On another note, where the old bus was, I thought of starting a small yellow school bus shrine with hot wheels and die cast models. [emoji38][emoji23][emoji1787][emoji854]
Dave K
Rank IV
Off-Road Ranger I
TacomaDave hit the nail on the head...."perspective" is also what makes a weed a weed. A pretty rose bush growing in the middle of a wheat field is a "weed" to the farmer because it doesn't belong there. Hence nothing man made really belongs in natural parks. The gnomes are tres cool and even though I get a chuckle out of seeing them out there in such an obscure location, they don't belong there. If someone feels the need to do desert art, then go buy an acre out in the desert and knock yourself out. If you're really good, you can charge and make money...
As far as real trash goes, good luck getting people to stop. I own several strip malls in south LA and one day I was at one of them and saw a car pull up to one of the businesses and a woman opens the passenger door and throws out a dirty diaper and some chicken bones. ( and this isn't a bad neighborhood, its right behind a Target and Home Depot) I walked over to her and asked her to pick up the mess and put in the dumpster that was about 30 feet away. She cursed me and told me I didn't "have the right to tell her anything" and sure enough, I got her plate and called the police and they didn't want to hear it. Which I get, a dirty diaper in my parking lot is hardly police worthy, BUT it just goes to show how brazen and arrogant people are with their littering and how there are no real consequences.
As far as real trash goes, good luck getting people to stop. I own several strip malls in south LA and one day I was at one of them and saw a car pull up to one of the businesses and a woman opens the passenger door and throws out a dirty diaper and some chicken bones. ( and this isn't a bad neighborhood, its right behind a Target and Home Depot) I walked over to her and asked her to pick up the mess and put in the dumpster that was about 30 feet away. She cursed me and told me I didn't "have the right to tell her anything" and sure enough, I got her plate and called the police and they didn't want to hear it. Which I get, a dirty diaper in my parking lot is hardly police worthy, BUT it just goes to show how brazen and arrogant people are with their littering and how there are no real consequences.
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Pathfinder I
I agree with you. It's ugly. It's trash. And I'm a card carrying member of the Tread Lightly movement. I've never been there so I don't know the details. Is it on public land or private? Can you clean it up without getting in trouble? My other post was just musing about how we treasure ancient artifacts that people then thought of as trash. Like the arrow and spearheads that didn't make the cut. Things like that.
Traveler II
Having never been to Mojave, I have to assume the gnomes are located in the area and are 'treasured' by locals or that there is a deeper meaning behind them.
Any material left on public land by a human is trash.
Items left behind by humans don't belong and the local environment won't reclaim the material quickly. The same principle can be applied to banana peels and apple cores that get tossed out by humans. They are not native to the local environment and will not efficiently break down... not to mention the possible spread of harmful bacteria or invasive plant species. When talking about historic artifacts (arrow heads, petroglyphs, mining equipment, old spoons, etc) it is important to note that when those items were left behind or discarded, the human(s) responsible for it generally had a right of ownership to the land. The Leave No Trace principle is self explanatory. Leave no trace that you were ever there, this includes everything from building cairns to signing your Instagram name on a rock to leaving auto parts along the road.
Any material left on public land by a human is trash.
Items left behind by humans don't belong and the local environment won't reclaim the material quickly. The same principle can be applied to banana peels and apple cores that get tossed out by humans. They are not native to the local environment and will not efficiently break down... not to mention the possible spread of harmful bacteria or invasive plant species. When talking about historic artifacts (arrow heads, petroglyphs, mining equipment, old spoons, etc) it is important to note that when those items were left behind or discarded, the human(s) responsible for it generally had a right of ownership to the land. The Leave No Trace principle is self explanatory. Leave no trace that you were ever there, this includes everything from building cairns to signing your Instagram name on a rock to leaving auto parts along the road.
Member III
Personally, I think the state sanctioned stuff is in a different category. Particularly because it's only sanctioned for a pre-determined period of time and, generally, with the sanctioning comes a requirement that the natural surroundings are returned to the way they were before the installment. I think the Seven Magic Mountains is only sanctioned until May 2021.
Of course, as far as what happens to the rocks that are painted after the installment is disassembled, I have no idea. I.e. is the paint able to be removed? I guess that does start getting into a very gray area, since if the rocks can't be "unpainted", then the natural landscape has certainly been permanently altered in a destructive way.
There's a river here in Oregon where people leave pumpkins on rocks. It started of as sort of a head scratcher, like how did that pumpkin get way up there? Now every Tom, Dick, and Harry is leaving pumpkins of all sizes all over the place. ODFW has to send rafts down to collect them there are so many.
I prefer the leave no trace approach. I get tired of hiking around my home area and seeing people stacking rocks, and firewood ends, basically anything that will sit still. It's disruptive to my outdoor experience to see this type of thing around every corner. I was on the stunning McKenzie River Trail once and rounded the corner to find somebodys trash pile on the side of the trail. Turns out it was some half-hearted attempt at a shrine for the Black Lives Matter movement. Why in the world would anyone feel that one of the most beautiful trails in the state was the place for that? It was very close to a road crossing so it was obvious they didn't have to pack all that junk very far. (Please don't read into this as my opinion on BLM, this is just how I feel about any trash, be it political or not, left in the wilderness.)
Anyhow, when I see stacked rocks or chunks of wood I toss them to the downhill side of the trail. If they want to stack them again it will take a bit more effort next time at least.
I prefer the leave no trace approach. I get tired of hiking around my home area and seeing people stacking rocks, and firewood ends, basically anything that will sit still. It's disruptive to my outdoor experience to see this type of thing around every corner. I was on the stunning McKenzie River Trail once and rounded the corner to find somebodys trash pile on the side of the trail. Turns out it was some half-hearted attempt at a shrine for the Black Lives Matter movement. Why in the world would anyone feel that one of the most beautiful trails in the state was the place for that? It was very close to a road crossing so it was obvious they didn't have to pack all that junk very far. (Please don't read into this as my opinion on BLM, this is just how I feel about any trash, be it political or not, left in the wilderness.)
Anyhow, when I see stacked rocks or chunks of wood I toss them to the downhill side of the trail. If they want to stack them again it will take a bit more effort next time at least.
Huh, what river? Never heard of it...
I'd say that about covers it. I like quirky, weird shit more than most I'd say, but I'm not interested in seeing someone's art project when I'm in the woods. I understand the inclination to leave one's mark somehow, in those remote and beautiful places we all treasure, but it's an inclination that should be rejected. Just take a picture...
Off-Road Ranger I
Trash vs. Art... It's all rusty metal in the desert!
A couple of sculptures out in Anza Borrego State Park --> very popular stop for tourists. Art? probably.
Metal / tin cans left by previous inhabitants of Death Valley Mine out off of the Mojave Road. Art? Maybe not, but if someone wanted to clean it up, there would probably be someone that said that it should be left there because it's part of the history of that mine.
It appears as if this is where they just dumped their old food cans, probably over many years, this was just a small part of what was there. To me, it was kind of a cool find, but still, just someones trash.
A couple of sculptures out in Anza Borrego State Park --> very popular stop for tourists. Art? probably.
Metal / tin cans left by previous inhabitants of Death Valley Mine out off of the Mojave Road. Art? Maybe not, but if someone wanted to clean it up, there would probably be someone that said that it should be left there because it's part of the history of that mine.
It appears as if this is where they just dumped their old food cans, probably over many years, this was just a small part of what was there. To me, it was kind of a cool find, but still, just someones trash.
Yeah, in spite of my post, it's not so black and white, is it? Trash + Time = Artifact? Trash + Intention + Talent + Permission = Art, maybe? I don't know.
Mostly, I'm opposed to things like this: Woman who defiled national parks with graffiti banned from 524 million acres of public land as well as your standard camp waste, toilet paper, car parts, refrigerators, old tires, etc...
In other words, it's like pornography: I know it when I see it.
Pathfinder I
Cadillac ranch near Amarillo, TX. People actually plan a vacation around visiting this. It's private property so whatever. Art...I guess
