Please help me understand towing

[Veinot]

I bought a 2012 MDX and I made that decision because I couldn't find a truck and a quick google search revealed that a MDX could tow 5000lbs and I thought probably all I will need. My towing plans are a trailer with 1 or 2 Motorcycles, bikes, other toys, and maybe a small adventure camper to a small 2 person "standy" type camper like a NuCamp Tab320 or something from Rustic trailer like the Grizzly or Polar Bear; so nothing too big the largest most lavish dream trailer I would ever consider is a Tab400 at a GVWR of 3900lbs and a "ready to go" weight of 3200lbs. Now that I own it and I have been investigating further I now know I have a transmission cooler, 2" 500lbs hitch, 5 pin harness, and will need a trailer break controller and 7 pin harness installed.
My manual says this about towing;
Occupants 2 Max 5,000 lbs (2,268 kg) tongue weight 500 lbs (227 kg) Occupants 3 Max 4,751 lbs (2,155 kg) tongue weight 470 lbs (213 kg) Occupants 4 Max 4,500 lbs (2,041 kg) tongue weight 370 lbs (168 kg) Occupants 5 Max 4,250 lbs (1,928 kg) tongue weight 276 lbs (125 kg) Occupants 6 Max 3,999 lbs (1,814 kg) tongue weight 150 lbs (68 kg) 7 Towing is Not Recommended.
With me and the wife weighing in at 400lbs + 2 kids 75lbs and 125lbs our passenger load is 600lbs which by weight puts us in the 4 passenger category which is 600lbs over my max projected towing needs of 3900lbs and about 800lbs over what I think I will be towing.
So, is 4000lbs towing with 4 passengers a reasonable expectation on the capabilities of the MDX once it is equipped with the 7pin connector and trailer breaks? If I buy/build a more teardrop shaped camper would that help with towing?

 

[kwill]

Where will you be towing? For how long? One of the most common mistakes made when thinking about towing is to focus on that towing capacity number--5,000 lbs. in your case. More important is your load capacity, the tongue weight of the trailer and the aerodynamic profile. Assuming your trailer follows the recommended tongue weight of 10% that's another 400 lbs. for a total of 1,000 lbs. load. With the wind drag of a TaB400 I think you will be straining, even on flat ground and mountain passes will be terrible.

 

[Veinot]

Where will you be towing? For how long? One of the most common mistakes made when thinking about towing is to focus on that towing capacity number--5,000 lbs.

How long? 6h about max. Where? Well I live in PEI and of I go further than Ontario it will probably be after I have replaced the MDX with a fullsize truck. As for focusing on towing capacity well whatelse can I do? If I have 4000lbs of towing capacity with 4 passengers by the book then what is the towing capacity really? As if yet I have found no guidelines just opinions. All the towing I have done was with a tractor lol. The TaB400 is a dream, I wouldnt use it as the baseline; the Polarbear or Grizzly bear from rustic trailers is closer to what I can build, or afford lol

 

[Alan_Hepburn]

If I have 4000lbs of towing capacity with 4 passengers by the book then what is the towing capacity really?

Your actual, real-world towing capacity is the lower of:

1. GVWR of the tow vehicle minus the actual measured weight of your tow vehicle
2. GCWR of the tow vehicle minus the actual measured weight of your tow vehicle

The first calculation tells you how much weight the tow vehicle itself can carry while the second calculation tells you how much weight the tow vehicle can pull behind it. Some vehicles are limited by their GVWR while others are limited by GCWR - you won't know the limit for your vehicle until you do the above calculations. For most trailers you want the tongue weight to be between 12% and 15% of the trailer's total weight - outside those limits you will have handling issues.

 

[Billiebob]

So, is 4000lbs towing with 4 passengers a reasonable expectation on the capabilities of the MDX once it is equipped with the 7pin connector and trailer breaks? If I buy/build a more teardrop shaped camper would that help with towing?

Reasonable expectation depends on yer expectations.

The numbers fit the Honda spec, but that spec is often based on paved, flat roads. As soon as you head for the mountains, or interstate running maxxed out will hurt the result, performance.

Trailer brakes are a legal requirement for a 4000# trailer everywhere except Alaska so no discussion needed.

Buy/Build...... It is really hard to build something lighter weight than what manufacturers build. If weight is the issue stick with bought, not built. Shape is only relevant at speeds over 60mph. If you keep your speeds under the double nickel, shape of the trailer is less important.

Finally we all underestimate how much our rig will weigh loaded and ready for a week on the road. It sounds like your cushion of 800# is a great goal. But calculating what yer rig might weigh is always an elusive crap shoot. That 800# cushion keeps you legal...... but it might not match yer performance expectations. Look for a place to rent a trailer, even a U-Haul, load it up, even with bricks, scale it to that 4000# goal, go for a longgg drive, over a variety of roads including interstate, mountain and forestry. Then figure out what yer expectations are.

Find a 3 lane..... and see how long it takes to pass a semi. I'm thinking you might pick something with a much bigger engine..... or scale back on trailer weight.

 

[Veinot]

Your actual, real-world towing capacity is the lower of:

1. GVWR of the tow vehicle minus the actual measured weight of your tow vehicle
2. GCWR of the tow vehicle minus the actual measured weight of your tow vehicle

The first calculation tells you how much weight the tow vehicle itself can carry while the second calculation tells you how much weight the tow vehicle can pull behind it. Some vehicles are limited by their GVWR while others are limited by GCWR - you won't know the limit for your vehicle until you do the above calculations. For most trailers you want the tongue weight to be between 12% and 15% of the trailer's total weight - outside those limits you will have handling issues.

I don't know if that sounds right, my GVWR is 5950 so 5950GVWR - 4500GVW = 1450 towing capacity. That means a 2019 F150 with a GVWR of 7050#-6000# curb weight means an F150 can only tow 1050#. I thought the GVWR - GVW = Max Cargo Capacity and the tongue weight needed to be subtracted from that number. It doesn't make sense that it would be the lower of the 2 ratings. I cannot find GCWR numbers for an MDX. Don't get me wrong I appreciate your input I just think it isn't jiving with convention. Not saying I don't have something messed up; that is a strong possibility.

 

[Veinot]

Reasonable expectation depends on yer expectations.

The numbers fit the Honda spec, but that spec is often based on paved, flat roads. As soon as you head for the mountains, or interstate running maxxed out will hurt the result, performance.

Reasonable expectation; to go 600kms from PEI to NS on the 100 series highway with my wife and kids and dog safely within 2 tanks of gas. Based on yours and the previous response I am beginning to think towing "specs" mean absolutely nothing.
As for our gear, all gear goes in the trailer; other than drinks and snacks the trailer will hold all camping equipment, bedding, and clothing. Bikes whatever. You know theoretically. I don't think we would be over 3800# all in with 380# on the hitch.
BUT!!!
If tow ratings mean absolutely nothing to the point where a noob cannot even use the manual -10% of the capacity to build a safe setup for adventure and camping where should I start? Am I looking at a 1500# tear drop that just has our food, cooking, and water supplies +a small bed with racks for bikes and canoes. Throw a 2" hitch on the back for other compatible carriers and platforms? If that is my limit then that is my limit.

 

[Veinot]

All I really need in a camper is; a bed, outside shower, gear racks, and galley hatch. A loo would be nice but not necessary; the trailer is more of a crappy weather escape than something we use. Most of the time we will be camping on private land near a cabin or using it as a bedroom when we visit home, or as a support system on beech and toboggan events where we can get out of the sun/cold, make some hot chocolate and hang out. We aren't camper campers, if that makes sense.

 

[kwill]

Unfortunately, there is no hard science that really helps. I'm unfamiliar with the MDX drive train and that's a big part of the equation. In my case I tow a 1300 lb. square drop trailer behind a newish Toyota Tacoma that is rated for 6,000 lbs. towing capacity. It is just my wife and I and we are pretty small people. Fully loaded the trailer is still less than 2000 lbs. It cuts my gas mileage in half, the transmission is constantly up- and down-shifting and it is just not fun to drive, especially in mountain terrain. However, I know other Tacoma owners are pulling double axle RVs of 5-6000 lbs. and say it is no problem. "Just keep it in 4th gear. These little engines love to run at high revs!"

 

[Veinot]

I guess the best thing to do is to rent a uhal and start putting bricks in it lol

 

[Alan_Hepburn]

I don't know if that sounds right, my GVWR is 5950 so 5950GVWR - 4500GVW = 1450 towing capacity. That means a 2019 F150 with a GVWR of 7050#-6000# curb weight means an F150 can only tow 1050#. I thought the GVWR - GVW = Max Cargo Capacity and the tongue weight needed to be subtracted from that number. It doesn't make sense that it would be the lower of the 2 ratings. I cannot find GCWR numbers for an MDX. Don't get me wrong I appreciate your input I just think it isn't jiving with convention. Not saying I don't have something messed up; that is a strong possibility.

GVWR minus the actual weight gives you how much cargo you can carry. GCWR minus the actual weight gives you the towing capacity, but you still have to be wary of GVWR because your tongue weight will eat up the cargo capacity.

 

[Veinot]

GVWR minus the actual weight gives you how much cargo you can carry. GCWR minus the actual weight gives you the towing capacity, but you still have to be wary of GVWR because your tongue weight will eat up the cargo capacity.

Ok, now I got you... still cannot find a GCWR for this model, only the little table in the manual that I shared.
Guess I shouldn't have settled on an SUV...

 

[DevilDodge]

The manual has a very interesting explanation.

It is saying 4 passengers as its explanation of towing?.

Interesting. I weigh 300 lbs. So 4 of me is 1200lbs. Interesting. I have no idea how they figure a weight based on passengers. Oh wait...yes i do. In towing literature a passanger is 150lbs. So 4 would be 600lbs. What they are saying is you can tow X amount with 300lbs in the car...600 lbs in the car...get the point.

GVWR is what you tow vehicle can weigh fully loaded. GCWR is what your tow vehicle and trailer can weight combined

GVWR gross vehicle weight rating
GCWR gross combined weight rating.

A camper is going to have 12 to 15 % tongue weight...unless you load it to get 10%

So say your camper has ia 5000lbs. The universal trailer rate is 10%...which your manual shows...makea a 500lb hitch weight.

But you got a camper and it turns out to be 13%...that is 650 lbs. And bam. Your car is overweight.

GVWR is set not only what your car can haul
..but what it can accelerate, stop and turn.

Max tow ratings are always wrong...even less when the trailer is a camper.

 

[DevilDodge]

Not to be silly...but what is a MDX.

I can explain the tow ratings on a RAM in my sleep...but I am not even sure what a MDX is

 

[DevilDodge]

I don't know if that sounds right, my GVWR is 5950 so 5950GVWR - 4500GVW = 1450 towing capacity. That means a 2019 F150 with a GVWR of 7050#-6000# curb weight means an F150 can only tow 1050#. I thought the GVWR - GVW = Max Cargo Capacity and the tongue weight needed to be subtracted from that number. It doesn't make sense that it would be the lower of the 2 ratings. I cannot find GCWR numbers for an MDX. Don't get me wrong I appreciate your input I just think it isn't jiving with convention. Not saying I don't have something messed up; that is a strong possibility.

You used the ford as an example. Your numbers are correct. But that is its payload. What the truck can carry.

GVWR minus base weight equals payload

GCWR minus base weight equals towing rating.

Lets do a RAM...cause I know the numbers.

RAM 1500 crew cab 5.7l hemi with 3.92 rear gear 4x4.

GVWR is 7100. GCWR is 17000.

Let's say the truck has 1500lb payload.

7100 minus 1500 equals 5600 base weight.

17000 minus 5600 is 11400 towing.

But... that 114000 is all the weight you add.

The trailer..the hitch...the tongue weight... the truck...passengers...cargo.

So lets say you have your 600lbs of people. 1500 minus 600 is 900. You have 900lbs left for tongue weight and hitch. Hitchs are about 100lbs so you habe 800lbs left. Camper at 13%...the most that can be towed is 6153.

Tongue weight is part of the camper...so the biggest trailer is 6953...a long way from the advertised 11400.

Hope this makes sense. I will explain further anything you would like.

 

[Veinot]

...

That helps!
So according to my door sticker and doing the math I get 1450# as my total cargo capacity, the book says it is 1150# but it also says refer to my door sticker so lets go with 1450#.
My Family weights about 600# (half of which is me lol) so 850# is our total carrying weight. With 600# in the car my pull capacity is 4500# but according to the diagram only 370# should be on the tongue. So no math needed just got to find out what x*.13=370 solve for x...
(x*0.13)/0.13=370/0.13
x= 2,846.153846153846#
hmmm..... that is oddly a very specific towing capacity but that means... theoretically I can tow.
Helio RV
TAB320 (but will have to keep it under 2,846.153846153846#)
Any Rustic Trailer
Any HikerTrail
Any Teardrop I can find
RPOD178 lightly loaded
Jayco 12SRK
Scamp 13'/13' Deluxe
Scamp 16'/16' Deluxe (lightly loaded)
I guess I could go on but you guys probably don't want to hear that lol
I suppose the only thing that actually changes is if my Cargo Capacity is 1150# and not 1450# then after my 600# and 370# hitch weight my in car cargo must be less than 180#; and my dog is 50# so 130#.
So I guess if I stay to the 2800# I should be relatively ok.

 

[Veinot]

To add to my last post, perhaps the reason why some people have widely differing experiences with towing various different trailer weights is because of the tongue weights vs total weight. 10% is thrown around a lot and 13% to 15% for Campers was mentioned here in this discussion. The scamp 13' though at 1500# only has a 100# tongue weight, that is less than 10%. So maybe varying "feels" of trailers comes down to how their weight is distributed; maybe some are just balanced better than others. So, with that said what is better a low % tongue weight or a high % tongue weight? Is there a sweet spot?

 

[DevilDodge]

10% is minimum. With a camper...because of the dynamics of the way they are built and the way the cut through the air...just like each vehicle has a specific payload...each camper ultimately has a different tongue weight.

Since you are looking at smaller campers with a short length...you will not have to worry about it that much.

The door stickers tell you everything you need to know except GCWR. You get that from towing charts. Not sure if there is a towing chart for a MDX.

On your door stickers.

There should be GVWR. Front and rear GAWR and then the payload.

Well...not sure what year they started putting payload. But...you could get the CAT scale app and then weigh your car and know exactly what you are working with

Where did you get the 1450 and the 1150 is from the manual?

Looks like you have a good list of campers to pick from

 

[Veinot]

10% is minimum. With a camper...because of the dynamics of the way they are built and the way the cut through the air...just like each vehicle has a specific payload...each camper ultimately has a different tongue weight.

Since you are looking at smaller campers with a short length...you will not have to worry about it that much.

The door stickers tell you everything you need to know except GCWR. You get that from towing charts. Not sure if there is a towing chart for a MDX.

On your door stickers.

There should be GVWR. Front and rear GAWR and then the payload.

Well...not sure what year they started putting payload. But...you could get the CAT scale app and then weigh your car and know exactly what you are working with

Where did you get the 1450 and the 1150 is from the manual?

Looks like you have a good list of campers to pick from

I got 1450 by subtracting GVW from GVWR I got from the internet; I just checked the door sticker and it says 1150# maximum of all cargo and passengers. So 1150#-650#=500# is what we have to work with. Since it says what my maximum tongue weight is with 4 people or 600# then that means I can only have a trailer that weights x=370#/tongue weight since 10% is the lowest tongue weight and 15% is the highest my trailer can only weight between 2400# and 3700# even though it says I can tow 4500# I wouldn't be able to carry the tongue weight. To play it even safer if I subtract 10% from my top I get about 2400# to 3350# as my towing margin. Although I suppose I have no minimum towing capacity so my actual limit is about 3300# at 10% tongue weight.
At least from all that is being said it seems that using my tongue weight capacity to reverse calculate my towing capacity seems to make sense.

 

[DevilDodge]

I see now. You got the GVW number from the internet. My guess is you mean base weight and the internet is giving you the base model.

Like for instance...you the internet for a RAM 1500 it lists 1840 payload. But the avg truck has 1400lb with some limited trucks with RamBox and multi function tailgate only have 950ish.

So your car does have the payload listed.

Then it is 1150.

Base weight would be listed GVWR minus payload.

And yes. Your numbers make sense. And you got the numbers you need.

Good luck.