Overlanding is: "Vehicle Dependent Travel". Nothing else. We will not further define "overlanding".

[bgenlvtex]

I think I disagree with the spirit of the OP on this one. All points made here thus far are valid and understandable on a logical and emotional level. My issue is with the expectations being set.

As an online community with a low barrier to entry, no one here should reasonably expect that the people joining have any basic level of knowledge. In fact, it should be the opposite.

So logically this becomes a place of education as well as community. It's very easy to forget how varied the educational spectrum is in the US and across the world. You don't know what you don't know and the rise of the service industry has facilitated an ecosystem where you can reasonably get by without any knowledge besides your professional one. That's how the world works now and we would all be best served by accepting it. So it stands that the only thing all members will have in common is the interest in Overlanding.

I would be remiss if I didn't say that I hoped I could find a forum consisting of like minded individuals I could consider my peers; a meeting place for technical discussion and education without all the crap. But this isn't a club and that's not how this site is intended to work. If members here have more than a working knowledge of vehicles, travel, camping, bushcraft, or any other relevant subject used in and adjacent to "Vehicle Dependant Travel" they should consider themselves in the minority and accept that their experience elevates them to some level educator IF they engage with members on this forum.

Now, for where I take issue. We shouldn't let our level of knowledge and education dictate how we treat other members. Nor should we set our own standards of what types of questions are valid or where members need to start to participate. It makes little sense to say the mods should keep those people from entering the floor to protect them and the forum from the actions of other members. A question that seems useless to some is most likely the exact question others are looking for. If someone is tired of engaging in those questions, they should feel free not to. But the better course of action is to engage and educate if you know something. Respectfully.

I don't think you understand my post.

In no way am I suggesting that people should not ask questions, ever, nor am I saying that anyone should be excluded, ever.

What I AM saying is that when a question is asked that is so abundantly broad that in fact it cannot be answered, that an effort should be made by all, not the least of whom should be moderators, to bring context to the question, so that it CAN be answered without it turning into a rock chunking event.

 

[bgenlvtex]

Agreed. It's the "elitist snob" aspect that really annoys me, not the show-n-tell aspect. Like I said, it's hard to explain. We all know the type though.

As to owning nice things, nothing wrong with that either - it's when someone lords it over another person. You've seen it, I've seen it, everyone has seen it - those who buy the expensive ??? and come across with an elitist attitude.

Like you, I come from a blue collar background as well. My parents started a trenching/cable laying company when I was younger. By the time I was 12 part of my chores were making sure the trucks and equipment were clean and ready to roll the next day. When I turned 14 I spent my summers literally digging ditches, instead of hanging out at the pool or riding bikes, as well. My parents were all about humility, being thankful and charity, I had no idea my family had "money" until after I graduated high school because of this. As a kid this was driven into me to the extent that if my parents caught me showing off to someone, in regard to something I had, I got into trouble; in one case my parents actually took the item and donated it to charity. If I copped a 'holier-than-thou' attitude with anyone I was disciplined &/or grounded.

That being said... it's just really the elitist attitude that bothers me. And you are correct, every hobby group has this dark side. Unfortunately, in my case, the 'overlanding' groups (like this one and the other one) and some of the Land Rover groups are the worse.

I posted this thread with the hopes and expectation that we can bring some clarity to these issues, assuage some of the anger, and emerge better for it.

I see some people making an effort to do that,II hope it is contagious, and I appreciate your participation.

 

[Boostpowered]

I think I disagree with the spirit of the OP on this one. All points made here thus far are valid and understandable on a logical and emotional level. My issue is with the expectations being set.

As an online community with a low barrier to entry, no one here should reasonably expect that the people joining have any basic level of knowledge. In fact, it should be the opposite.

So logically this becomes a place of education as well as community. It's very easy to forget how varied the educational spectrum is in the US and across the world. You don't know what you don't know and the rise of the service industry has facilitated an ecosystem where you can reasonably get by without any knowledge besides your professional one. That's how the world works now and we would all be best served by accepting it. So it stands that the only thing all members will have in common is the interest in Overlanding.

I would be remiss if I didn't say that I hoped I could find a forum consisting of like minded individuals I could consider my peers; a meeting place for technical discussion and education without all the crap. But this isn't a club and that's not how this site is intended to work. If members here have more than a working knowledge of vehicles, travel, camping, bushcraft, or any other relevant subject used in and adjacent to "Vehicle Dependant Travel" they should consider themselves in the minority and accept that their experience elevates them to some level educator IF they engage with members on this forum.

Now, for where I take issue. We shouldn't let our level of knowledge and education dictate how we treat other members. Nor should we set our own standards of what types of questions are valid or where members need to start to participate. It makes little sense to say the mods should keep those people from entering the floor to protect them and the forum from the actions of other members. A question that seems useless to some is most likely the exact question others are looking for. If someone is tired of engaging in those questions, they should feel free not to. But the better course of action is to engage and educate if you know something. Respectfully.

I don't understand how your supposed to get educated if you ask a valid question and get 30 different responses or views on something. How are you as the questioner supposed to figure out which response is the right one. Is it just that 1 answer you were hoping to hear anyway? How is this any different than googling the same question?
As the one answering said question how do you educate them if 29 other people are saying something totally different? Maybe they have other experiences but usually its just someone regurgitating something they read on the internet themselves that is wrong or don't apply to the question to bein with.

We are just yelling into an echo chamber.
No one really cares what we have to say right or wrong.

 

[Shokgoblr]

Yeah I've never installed mine and I'm torn about it for reasons I'm not getting in to because I'd rather not have people take what I'm saying the wrong way.

Same. I know exactly what you're saying.

 

[Boostpowered]

I predict this post will be shut down and a few of us will be in ob's Facebook jail like last time.

 

[bgenlvtex]

I predict this post will be shut down and a few of us will be in ob's Facebook jail like last time.

If people keep riding their egos around like a stick pony it will surely.

I didn't post this to give peopleaa oplatform to declare how much OB sucks, I posted it because I like OB and want it to be a better place.

If that's not what you're looking for just move on.

 

[Anak]

There is another way to look at this...

Those who come along asking questions without context may be assumed to be looking for the product with the most elite reputation (Yeti coolers/ARB fridges/King shocks/etc.). And the odds are good these are the folks who are hardly going to use said products, but rather just brag about them.

By all means, encourage these folks to buy these products. Send them links to the most expensive, high-end products on the market.

This is a win-win-win situation. The customer who has more money than brains will be happy with their bragging rights. The companies who sell such products will be happy with their profits. And those of us who like to buy good used gear will have a steady supply in the pipeline. What more could we all ask for?

And for icing on the top, the companies who are making this profit will have motivation to further develop specialty products which otherwise would never come into existence.

It's all good. Just be patient with these folks. They will benefit us in the long run.

 

[bgenlvtex]

There is another way to look at this...

Those who come along asking questions without context may be assumed to be looking for the product with the most elite reputation (Yeti coolers/ARB fridges/King shocks/etc.). And the odds are good these are the folks who are hardly going to use said products, but rather just brag about them.

By all means, encourage these folks to buy these products. Send them links to the most expensive, high-end products on the market.

This is a win-win-win situation. The customer who has more money than brains will be happy with their bragging rights. The companies who sell such products will be happy with their profits. And those of us who like to buy good used gear will have a steady supply in the pipeline. What more could we all ask for?

And for icing on the top, the companies who are making this profit will have motivation to further develop specialty products which otherwise would never come into existence.

It's all good. Just be patient with these folks. They will benefit us in the long run.

LOL, your sarcasm doesn't go unrecognized, but that isn't really consistent with my goal.

 

[Anak]

There are some things you just can't fix.

But that doesn't mean you can't have fun with them.

Gotta look for the bright side.

 

[Lanlubber In Remembrance]

Overland Bound, founding principles, item number one.

Pretty straight forward, and clearly of good intent. For the record I don't think "Overlanding" CAN be defined beyond that.

Now here we are today. the hobby having enjoyed exponential growth over the last few years, this forum being arguably the preeminent "overlanding" forum on the web has enjoyed the same exponential growth.

With that growth has come many ,many questions beginning with "Do I need........xxxxxxxx.........", and in most cases the OP will provide little or no context to go with that question. At that point, a critical error has been made, a question has been directed that simply can not be answered, unless the specific question is "Do I need a vehicle?" and I have never seen that question asked. Always the questions are gear specific.

Using as an example, the recent thread titled "Do I need an electric winch" (or some such similar), the OP asks what is seemingly a valid question, does so reasonably, and ostensibly seeking a reasonable answer. Fair enough, now go back and read the first item in the OB founding principles, because the ONLY possible answer when the question is devoid of context is "No". Overlanding can be sleeping in your Prius in the Kroger parking lot, riding the Dalton highway on a motorcycle, or the McKenzie trail in a full on built Jeep and every answer to the OP question, other than "No" will reflect the respondents own personal views and experiences as the term "overland" applies to him or her.

I think it is incumbent on the board members, moderators and staff of this site, when they see a question like that, to first direct the poster to those founding principles, and encourage them to bring context to the table, to avoid the predictable arguments that will inevitably arise as people rabidly defend their opinion.

I am as guilty as the next of defending my opinion, and mincing words is not a familiar trait to me. I get it, I'll do better, I'm just asking the rest of you to do something similar.

We all have our pet peeves about something. If I may I would like to complain about the "what did you buy for your rig today"....

 

[grubworm]

LostWoods said:
Yeah I've never installed mine and I'm torn about it for reasons I'm not getting in to because I'd rather not have people take what I'm saying the wrong way.

Same. I know exactly what you're saying.

wow! there is ABSOLUTELY nothing as cool as or as 'edgy' as someone who puts in the time and effort to join a group and then brags about how they aren't displaying any of that group's badges or stickers. don't give a shit what you do with them, but comical you need to announce it group wide

i want to join a group so that i can immediately brag to everyone that i'm rejecting it and go against the grain. that is so cool! i'm inspired now to go paint my fingernails black and wear eyeliner and complain that nobody "gets me"!

How about a site called EMO Bound?

 

[Correus]

I don't think you understand my post.

In no way am I suggesting that people should not ask questions, ever, nor am I saying that anyone should be excluded, ever.

What I AM saying is that when a question is asked that is so abundantly broad that in fact it cannot be answered, that an effort should be made by all, not the least of whom should be moderators, to bring context to the question, so that it CAN be answered without it turning into a rock chunking event.

From what I understand, you are referring to those who ask questions such as "I have a truck, what type of tires should I buy", or they might even add "to go overlanding".

That is a very broad question that's going to get so many answers it'll muddy the waters so bad it's useless.

It would be better (at least from my own experience) if the person would ask it more or less in the following way.

"I have a 4×4 truck that I'd like to start using more when I go camping/exploring. Right now it's my daily driver and has (tire size) stock tires on it. I'm not planning on using it as a rock crawler or doing any extreme offloading; mainly just logging type roads or across farm fields and pastures. I'm not planning on adding a lift kit and will still be using it as a daily driver. Are there any tires you'd recommend? If additional details are needed, let me know."

Is this more what your thinking?

 

[BCMoto]

Every forum I have ever been on has the "ELITE" group or "cool kids" It will never change. Being in the automotive aftermarket for year and seeing cars built and its always having the best was the thing and it just carries out to other things and that what I think some people hate. Its what social media does to people they feel like if they dont post it online then they cant show off.

 

[bgenlvtex]

From what I understand, you are referring to those who ask questions such as "I have a truck, what type of tires should I buy", or they might even add "to go overlanding".

That is a very broad question that's going to get so many answers it'll muddy the waters so bad it's useless.

It would be better (at least from my own experience) if the person would ask it more or less in the following way.

"I have a 4×4 truck that I'd like to start using more when I go camping/exploring. Right now it's my daily driver and has (tire size) stock tires on it. I'm not planning on using it as a rock crawler or doing any extreme offloading; mainly just logging type roads or across farm fields and pastures. I'm not planning on adding a lift kit and will still be using it as a daily driver. Are there any tires you'd recommend? If additional details are needed, let me know."

Is this more what your thinking?

Yes.
The failure to provide context leads to a bunch of squabbling. In the case of the OP they very much may not possess to ask a better question, or they may just be lazy.

I'm saying that when someone makes a post like that instead of rushing to answer the question,first ask for context. Otherwise all they get is impertinent opinion, that people then vigorously defend when they don't even know that they have made a good recommendation

 

[Shakes355]

@bgenlvtex
So my post may be irrelevant. I have a very specific view of the term "board members" due to my proximity to corporate and nonprofit management. Are you referring to OB as a message board and thus directing your suggestion to all users? If so, I will take my post down since it's not applicable

 

[bgenlvtex]

@bgenlvtex
So my post may be irrelevant. I have a very specific view of the term "board members" due to my proximity to corporate and nonprofit management. Are you referring to OB as a message board and thus directing your suggestion to all users? If so, I will take my post down since it's not applicable

Yes, when I say "board members" I am referring specifically to members of the message board, Overland Bound members explicitly

 

[Shakes355]

[/QUOTE]
Yes, when I say "board members" I am referring specifically to members of the message board, Overland Bound members explicitly[/QUOTE]

Then I'm just here to agree with the sentiment. Lol.

 

[Sparksalot]

LostWoods said:
Yeah I've never installed mine and I'm torn about it for reasons I'm not getting in to because I'd rather not have people take what I'm saying the wrong way.



wow! there is ABSOLUTELY nothing as cool as or as 'edgy' as someone who puts in the time and effort to join a group and then brags about how they aren't displaying any of that group's badges or stickers. don't give a shit what you do with them, but comical you need to announce it group wide

i want to join a group so that i can immediately brag to everyone that i'm rejecting it and go against the grain. that is so cool! i'm inspired now to go paint my fingernails black and wear eyeliner and complain that nobody "gets me"!

How about a site called EMO Bound?


View attachment 186460

I didnt realize you were so young.

 

[Correus]

Yes.
The failure to provide context leads to a bunch of squabbling. In the case of the OP they very much may not possess to ask a better question, or they may just be lazy.

I'm saying that when someone makes a post like that instead of rushing to answer the question,first ask for context. Otherwise all they get is impertinent opinion, that people then vigorously defend when they don't even know that they have made a good recommendation

Agreed.

What bothers me is the following scenario, and attitudes.

About this time, back in 2019, I started shopping around for tires for my Rover. Even after doing a lot of online research I found myself still not sure - there is just SO MUCH info out there.

I possed the question - "which would you recommend". It was asked on a Land Rover mailing list and a Land Rover forum. I gave the exact details as the question above. I also told them what tires I was was considering, and why, and stated that I was under a strict budget (was in the middle of rebuilding the thing), so nothing overly expensive, just a good basic tire.

The ones I had mentioned turned out the be the ones most suggested. There were three other suggestions made as well and those who recommended them explained why, so I checked them out as well.

However, there were a couple guys who suggested tires (both suggested the same one) that did not meet the criteria. The tires these guys suggested were well over budget - more than twice the cost. I thanked them for the recommendation. Both flat out told me I was wasting my money and everyone else's time if I didn't take their advice. Both are known to be elitist snobs within the Rover world.

So, while I completely understand where context is needed, people who answer the question should show a little restraint as well.

BTW - the tires I went with are BFGoodrich All-Terrain T/A KO2 LT; 235/85R16; pretty much standard here in tge US for a Series Rover.

 

[bgenlvtex]

Agreed.

What bothers me is the following scenario, and attitudes.

About this time, back in 2019, I started shopping around for tires for my Rover. Even after doing a lot of online research I found myself still not sure - there is just SO MUCH info out there.

I possed the question - "which would you recommend". It was asked on a Land Rover mailing list and a Land Rover forum. I gave the exact details as the question above. I also told them what tires I was was considering, and why, and stated that I was under a strict budget (was in the middle of rebuilding the thing), so nothing overly expensive, just a good basic tire.

The ones I had mentioned turned out the be the ones most suggested. There were three other suggestions made as well and those who recommended them explained why, so I checked them out as well.

However, there were a couple guys who suggested tires (both suggested the same one) that did not meet the criteria. The tires these guys suggested were well over budget - more than twice the cost. I thanked them for the recommendation. Both flat out told me I was wasting my money and everyone else's time if I didn't take their advice. Both are known to be elitist snobs within the Rover world.

So, while I completely understand where context is needed, people who answer the question should show a little restraint as well.

BTW - the tires I went with are BFGoodrich All-Terrain T/A KO2 LT; 235/85R16; pretty much standard here in tge US for a Series Rover.

LOL, brand snobbery and bad recommendations all wrapped in one.

In their defense howeverII ccan oonly assume that they in turn assumed you were.... you know... nudge, nudge,.... special, since you were building a Land Rover on a budget