Offroad map & compass navigation WITHOUT gps

[Marty]

Looking for school/instructor that can teach me extremely accurate map/compass navigation and destination finding (within 1/10th of a minute) at scales of 1:50,000 up to 1:200,000. (see Rebelle Rally). Any suggestions?

 

[TnWalrus]

Check your local REI store.

 

[Marty]

Check your local REI store.

Need nav training that is several levels above REI training. Thanks for your reply.

 

[TnWalrus]

Check to see if there is a NOLS course. That's the only other thing I could think of.

 

[Revan505]

Look up land nav course training the military uses. The rest is practice.

Sent from my SM-N950U using OB Talk mobile app

 

[Cort]

Check with your local search and rescue team which are often times tied in with the sheriff’s dept. you’ll find USNG the most popular with UTM following, MGRS and lat/long not so popular. You’ll also find 1:24,000 far more common using WGS 84

 

[Sgt12XU]

I have my old Marine Corps land nav books buried in a dusty box out in the garage. Those old school skills still apply. The right map, a compass, your pace count (Ranger beads) and a protracter will get you where you need to go. Two point resections if you get lost, etc.

It gets more difficult in a flat desert without terrain features, but still doable if you mix in celestial nav.

 

[Marty]

I have my old Marine Corps land nav books buried in a dusty box out in the garage. Those old school skills still apply. The right map, a compass, your pace count (Ranger beads) and a protracter will get you where you need to go. Two point resections if you get lost, etc.

It gets more difficult in a flat desert without terrain features, but still doable if you mix in celestial nav.

Thanks. I'm not former military so don't have the books. Got the other tols and need practice!

 

[Sgt12XU]

Well, I had some pretty crappy LandNav experiences in training (good training, but terrible weather and extremely difficult terrain). Infantry Squad Leaders Course comes to mind when I was a young hard charging Corporal. I'm sure you can find .pdfs of some military manuals. In the Corps, a lot of courses we took had LandNav integrated. Never rely on technology, so a map and compass should be required gear if in remote places.

 

[GatorDoc]

I'll second what my fellow Belleau Woodsman @MEU(SOC) has to say; military training may not be perfect, but it's definitely a good starting point, since it's meant for the average 18 year old kid, or retarded 2nd Lieutenant.

Get a good lensatic compass, a protractor, and a box or two of grid squares, and you'll be ready to go.

Google "0381C Land Navigation PDF" for a decent, very low-level starting point. There are other pubs out there in PDF form on all sorts of topics from pastry baking (no kidding) to machine gunnery, to vehicle battle damage and recovery; just have to do some digging.

Semper Fi!

 

[Cort]

I’m not bagging on the military land nav but it’s not the way to go for civilians. The mil uses MGRS as a grid system that isn’t used outside of the military. GPS systems and map providers don’t use mgrs for the most part and rescuers will expect another system.

CONUS the national standard has been UTM however it’s transitioning to USNG. A tritium lensatic compas is a quality piece of gear but a Silva ranger is a far better way to go with the clear base and map tools printed on it. This and a grid reader is an awesome combo.

Again, not slamming your experience or the MGRS system, it’s just not the best way to go for a majority of overlanders.

 

[TRT87]

@Cort,

Thanks for the info on the USNG system. Its my first time hearing of it. FEMA made it the standard back in 2009. I find it funny that both USNG and MGRS are based on UTM. It dosnt make sence to me...why not use MGRS as the standard for emergency response. Its well established and used by governments in all NATO nations. More info and resources on USNG can be found < here >

@Marty,

The USAF SERE manual can be found < here > it has a section on land navigation and wealth of other knowledge. I hope you find it useful.

Tyler

 

[Cort]

@Cort,

Thanks for the info on the USNG system. Its my first time hearing of it. FEMA made it the standard back in 2009. I find it funny that both USNG and MGRS are based on UTM. It dosnt make sence to me...why not use MGRS as the standard for emergency response. Its well established and used by governments in all NATO nations. More info and resources on USNG can be found < here >

@Marty,

The USAF SERE manual can be found < here > it has a section on land navigation and wealth of other knowledge. I hope you find it useful.

Tyler

Part of the change from UTM to USNG is communicating a grid to partnering agencies or air assets. It’s much harder to mess up USNG over the radio which makes sense. Using UTM there have been many examples of air assets going to the wrong location causing serious issues in rescue timelines. I have no idea why MGRS wasn’t adopted in all honesty.

 

[Cort]

Differences Between MGRS and USNG
MGRS and USNG 100,000-meter Square Identifications are Different when Used with the NAD 27 Datum
Both the MGRS and USNG systems default to the WGS84 datum. They differ when used with the NAD 27 Datum. This is particularly important to users within the Continental Unites States, where many topographic maps produced by the United States Geologic Survey are referenced to the NAD 27 Datum. The MGRS System shifts the second letter of the 100,000-meter square identification by ten letters (excluding I and O). The USNG system does not make this letter shift, but does require that the datum be specified.

The example coordinate we have been using would look like this when referenced to the NAD 27 Datum:

MGRS: 10S GU 0706832 4344683
USNG: 10S GJ 0706832 4344683 (NAD 27)

The letter shift also occurs in MGRS when working with other datum that use the Bessel 1841 and Clarke 1880 ellipsoids, which includes much of Africa, Japan, Korea, and Indonesia. When you are working with old maps and MGRS coordinates, be aware that occasional unusual letter adjustments have been used in the past.

Since most land navigation users drop the GZD and Grid Letters, the shift usually has little impact, unless you need to enter MGRS coordinates into your GPS for far away locations.

USNG is only defined for use "over all areas of the United States including outlying territories and possessions"
This allows the definition of USNG to avoid a number of complications. It does not include the UPS coordinate system for polar regions, nor does it need the zone boundary exceptions defined for Norway.

USNG allows the use of only the three datums (NAD83, WGS84 or NAD27) commonly used in the United States. The default USNG datum is NAD 83. WGS 84 is considered an acceptable alternative to NAD 83 When using NAD27 you must explicitly specify it.
For example, 10S GJ 068 446 (NAD27).
MGRS coordinates may be used with any datum, and there is no formal way to specify the datum. (It is still very important to specify the datum. It’s just not formalized how to write it.)

100,000m truncation not specified in USNG
MGRS allows you to reference an entire 100,000m square area, e.g. 10S EH, whereas USNG suggests at least two digits and thus the largest area that can be described is a 10,000m square, e.g. 10S GJ 0 4. The USNG does not specifically prohibit 100,000m truncation, but instead omits it from the standard document, whereas the MGRS standard specifically includes it.

http://gpsinformation.info/USNG/USNG.html Has some additional great info.

 

[Quicksilver]

I hadn't heard of USNG before either. I'll do further reading on it, but it sounds like the use/method of MGRS and USNG is the same, just the datums are different? I was very good at land nav in the army, so it looks like transitioning from MGRS to USNG will be no trouble at all.

EDIT: I just read the page that @Cort linked to, which among other things says, "They are functionally identical with an insignificant difference of about 1 meter." So I guess I just answered my own question, haha. One thing I found inaccurate though, is that it says that the MGRS usually uses the full 10 digits and is usually not truncated. We rarely used the full 10 digits. Most often we used 8. Typically, the only times we used the full 10 was in training, just to be familiar with the concept, or when some butter-bar was being overly hooah.

 

[MOAK]

Here is a guy that teaches overlanding specific navigation skills. I'm sure he is familiar with map and compass navigation. I myself rely on paper and compass to keep a general idea of where we are at. http://bb4wa.com/ I enjoy Bill most of all because he keeps navigation techniques very simple.

 

[bionicman]

I took a map & compass class at REI - very educational -

 

[Bodge Garage]

Another source would be wildland fire fighters. You could reach out to your local forest service, county fire, department of lands, etc end ask them who is teaching their mapping. They are generally pretty good since they teach mapping for life safety. Just a thought.

 

[Rubyredfozzy]

Differences Between MGRS and USNG
MGRS and USNG 100,000-meter Square Identifications are Different when Used with the NAD 27 Datum
Both the MGRS and USNG systems default to the WGS84 datum. They differ when used with the NAD 27 Datum. This is particularly important to users within the Continental Unites States, where many topographic maps produced by the United States Geologic Survey are referenced to the NAD 27 Datum. The MGRS System shifts the second letter of the 100,000-meter square identification by ten letters (excluding I and O). The USNG system does not make this letter shift, but does require that the datum be specified.

The example coordinate we have been using would look like this when referenced to the NAD 27 Datum:

MGRS: 10S GU 0706832 4344683
USNG: 10S GJ 0706832 4344683 (NAD 27)

The letter shift also occurs in MGRS when working with other datum that use the Bessel 1841 and Clarke 1880 ellipsoids, which includes much of Africa, Japan, Korea, and Indonesia. When you are working with old maps and MGRS coordinates, be aware that occasional unusual letter adjustments have been used in the past.

Since most land navigation users drop the GZD and Grid Letters, the shift usually has little impact, unless you need to enter MGRS coordinates into your GPS for far away locations.

USNG is only defined for use "over all areas of the United States including outlying territories and possessions"
This allows the definition of USNG to avoid a number of complications. It does not include the UPS coordinate system for polar regions, nor does it need the zone boundary exceptions defined for Norway.

USNG allows the use of only the three datums (NAD83, WGS84 or NAD27) commonly used in the United States. The default USNG datum is NAD 83. WGS 84 is considered an acceptable alternative to NAD 83 When using NAD27 you must explicitly specify it.
For example, 10S GJ 068 446 (NAD27).
MGRS coordinates may be used with any datum, and there is no formal way to specify the datum. (It is still very important to specify the datum. It’s just not formalized how to write it.)

100,000m truncation not specified in USNG
MGRS allows you to reference an entire 100,000m square area, e.g. 10S EH, whereas USNG suggests at least two digits and thus the largest area that can be described is a 10,000m square, e.g. 10S GJ 0 4. The USNG does not specifically prohibit 100,000m truncation, but instead omits it from the standard document, whereas the MGRS standard specifically includes it.

http://gpsinformation.info/USNG/USNG.html Has some additional great info.

Great info brother. I am with you. The Army taught me some good skills and it helped me understand what you wrote above but, I know nobody else really uses MGRS as widely as we do. I am gking to look into the standards you posted so I don't have such a hard transition to civilian life.

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[danthman114]

Look up land nav course training the military uses. The rest is practice.

Sent from my SM-N950U using OB Talk mobile app

the military uses a different grid system than civilian maps have. mgrs. or Military Grid Reference System is different than wgs84. the basics are the same as far as using compass and protractor tho

youtube has many videos on the subject. also be aware that older maps have a different system than wgs84. most historical maps will have blue tic marks around the border that are for wgs84 lines...
a good website to get maps from is the usgs website. I have both historical and current maps. new maps don't have old roads