Non Lethal self protection

[RJ Howell]

M

Couple things I feel that are important that aren’t being said here. 1 there’s no such thing as non lethal.

Sorry, but..
Department of Defense policy has long defined non-lethal weapons as “Weapons that are explicitly designed and primarily employed so as to incapacitate personnel or material, while minimizing fatalities, permanent injury to personnel, and undesired damage to property and the environment.”

That hasn't changed, so you might wish to let them know..
Seems the term 'less than' comes from California legislation or at least as I have been reading. I will admit originality of the term is beyond me and my research and don't really care where it started.

So, with the reason of the thread.. What do you use and suggest?

 

[Outdoordog]

On an overland trip, my dogs will always be with me. I carry a pocket knife on me daily.
Also have a spear around my camp, but not sure if it's non-lethal. It's extremely sharp and could easily hit an artery.

 

[notdeadyet]

Late to the party, but just wanted to mention that the problem with the pistol-looking non-lethal items is that your odds of someone pulling a (lethal) pistol in response goes up dramatically and your being shot would likely be justified.

 

[DocAldo]

Yup

 

[DocAldo]

It would suck to shoot some that pulled an airport or other toy gun.

If it was real, no issue or regrets putting two in the chest and one in the head.

Glad the military drilled it into our muscle

 

[RJ Howell]

Late to the party, but just wanted to mention that the problem with the pistol-looking non-lethal items is that your odds of someone pulling a (lethal) pistol in response goes up dramatically and your being shot would likely be justified.

If you are going to stand there, like a fool, and threaten with a weapon of any sort.. You never should have pulled it. The only time a weapon comes out is if it's to be used and all other methods are over. You scenario is a fools errand..

The purpose of a non-lethal is to allow you safe escape of a bad situation without taking a life. When pulled, without hesitation, fire until empty and remove your loved ones from the situation as you reload. If required repeat..

 

[RJ Howell]

It would suck to shoot some that pulled an airport or other toy gun.

If it was real, no issue or regrets putting two in the chest and one in the head.

Glad the military drilled it into our muscle

I am attempting not to take a life that may not need to be for myself & loved ones safety. There is honor in not taking a life.

So back on topic. What non-lethal method do you have or use?

 

[bgenlvtex]

On an overland trip, my dogs will always be with me. I carry a pocket knife on me daily.
Also have a spear around my camp, but not sure if it's non-lethal. It's extremely sharp and could easily hit an artery.

LOL, the pointy end of a spear definitely qualifies as "lethal".

I put an aluminum cap and a big screw in carbide traction bolt in the butt end of mine to serve as a translator, persuader and glass breaker.

 

[Ebbs]

I've been looking into the HDR as well. specifically in the Orange, thoughts that it would give pause to anyone thinking I was pulling a real gun, and it would be easier to keep within reach and even act as a deterant on my hip...

Currently for less than leathel I carry bear spray (helps I camp mostly in bear country so easily obtained). but I also CC where I can. and usually have my dogs with me...
IMO the best plan is not to rely on ONE method for anything. I agree that less than lethal is best used when other methods of avoidance/removal are unavailable/unsuccesful.

 

[Jhop567]

After 30+ years in LE, I've seen less lethal weapons not work effectively, it tends to piss the subject off, and your alternative is fleetness of foot!!! Deadly force can and should only be used when your life or the life of another is in danger. And get insurance in the event you do shoot someone.

 

[BAJA-X]

After 30+ years in LE, I've seen less lethal weapons not work effectively, it tends to piss the subject off, and your alternative is fleetness of foot!!! Deadly force can and should only be used when your life or the life of another is in danger. And get insurance in the event you do shoot someone.

Well Said.

 

[RJ Howell]

After 30+ years in LE, I've seen less lethal weapons not work effectively, it tends to piss the subject off, and your alternative is fleetness of foot!!! Deadly force can and should only be used when your life or the life of another is in danger. And get insurance in the event you do shoot someone.

I'd hoped for a better explanation of you statement with your background. Then I'd hoped for suggestions of better alternatives than lethal. As stated before, there are those situations where running away is not an option.

In the hopes of staying positive with this thread.. What are your choices of non-lethal alternatives?

 

[K12]

After 30+ years in LE, I've seen less lethal weapons not work effectively, it tends to piss the subject off, and your alternative is fleetness of foot!!! Deadly force can and should only be used when your life or the life of another is in danger. And get insurance in the event you do shoot someone.

I'd hoped for a better explanation of you statement with your background. Then I'd hoped for suggestions of better alternatives than lethal. As stated before, there are those situations where running away is not an option.

In the hopes of staying positive with this thread.. What are your choices of non-lethal alternatives?

In my experiences in military and law enforcement, the only effective non-lethal force I have seen is a taser. OC spray does not work on some, it is minimally effecitve on myself and I was able to run the course with ease. Most people OC spray pisses them off and they spin into a mostly blind rage going after whatever shadows they see. Bear spray is illegal to use on humans in most (if not all) states.

Tasers do take training to use effectively and is a very good non-lethal. Just like everything else if you do not train with it then it is rendered almost useless. This form of non lethal on the civilian market is also made to incapacitate the individual for 30 seconds so they can run away and get help... not to subdue an offender to stand your ground. Also the tasers the shoot the prongs are more effective and can give you a 15-25 foot range, and can be used right up on someone if needed... but again, training is necessary.

The goal at the end of the day is for everyone to go home safe. In many circumstances if you get to a point of using non lethal, the likelihood of lethal force is very close. A show of lethal force can also suffice at diffusing the situation, but make sure that you are legally allowed to do that in the situation.

Make sure you check laws on less lethal as well. There can be brandishing and menacing laws that apply equally to non-lethal as they do to lethal shows of force.

 

[RJ Howell]

In my experiences in military and law enforcement, the only effective non-lethal force I have seen is a taser. OC spray does not work on some, it is minimally effecitve on myself and I was able to run the course with ease. Most people OC spray pisses them off and they spin into a mostly blind rage going after whatever shadows they see. Bear spray is illegal to use on humans in most (if not all) states.

Tasers do take training to use effectively and is a very good non-lethal. Just like everything else if you do not train with it then it is rendered almost useless. This form of non lethal on the civilian market is also made to incapacitate the individual for 30 seconds so they can run away and get help... not to subdue an offender to stand your ground. Also the tasers the shoot the prongs are more effective and can give you a 15-25 foot range, and can be used right up on someone if needed... but again, training is necessary.

The goal at the end of the day is for everyone to go home safe. In many circumstances if you get to a point of using non lethal, the likelihood of lethal force is very close. A show of lethal force can also suffice at diffusing the situation, but make sure that you are legally allowed to do that in the situation.

Make sure you check laws on less lethal as well. There can be brandishing and menacing laws that apply equally to non-lethal as they do to lethal shows of force.

I appreciate this. Being civilian tasers are 30s to cycle and shorter 'shock' time (as I've read), do you believe they can stop someone s well as what you may have used? How long did you find the suspect would be incapacitated? I'm reading only 15-20 seconds and they're up and shaking it off.

 

[K12]

In my experiences in military and law enforcement, the only effective non-lethal force I have seen is a taser. OC spray does not work on some, it is minimally effecitve on myself and I was able to run the course with ease. Most people OC spray pisses them off and they spin into a mostly blind rage going after whatever shadows they see. Bear spray is illegal to use on humans in most (if not all) states.

Tasers do take training to use effectively and is a very good non-lethal. Just like everything else if you do not train with it then it is rendered almost useless. This form of non lethal on the civilian market is also made to incapacitate the individual for 30 seconds so they can run away and get help... not to subdue an offender to stand your ground. Also the tasers the shoot the prongs are more effective and can give you a 15-25 foot range, and can be used right up on someone if needed... but again, training is necessary.

The goal at the end of the day is for everyone to go home safe. In many circumstances if you get to a point of using non lethal, the likelihood of lethal force is very close. A show of lethal force can also suffice at diffusing the situation, but make sure that you are legally allowed to do that in the situation.

Make sure you check laws on less lethal as well. There can be brandishing and menacing laws that apply equally to non-lethal as they do to lethal shows of force.

I appreciate this. Being civilian tasers are 30s to cycle and shorter 'shock' time (as I've read), do you believe they can stop someone s well as what you may have used? How long did you find the suspect would be incapacitated? I'm reading only 15-20 seconds and they're up and shaking it off.

The civilian models are about the same as LE models, as far as incapacitation, but generally last for 30 seconds, instead of 5, as you have read. The big problem is if you miss a prong it does nothing... if they are wearing a puffy jacket, the effects go down and may be useless. If both prongs hit with optimal spread you should have a solid 20 seconds to get away. I cannot restate enough that training is vital and everything has the ability to fail.

Less lethal is not always effective, when your less lethal is not effective what is your next move? do you have time when your less lethal fails? Will those around you still be protected? what if the bad guy takes your less lethal from you and uses it on you (bat, baton, etc)?

Space is the best protection, if you have to get inside that reactionary gap (21 feet) you better have whatever protection ready, because chances are they will win the race if you dont.

 

[Jhop567]

I'd hoped for a better explanation of you statement with your background. Then I'd hoped for suggestions of better alternatives than lethal. As stated before, there are those situations where running away is not an option.

In the hopes of staying positive with this thread.. What are your choices of non-lethal alternatives?

OK, If you use less lethal munitions, spray or electric shock or other tools, sometimes they don't work or the suspect is so drugged up they are ineffective, then you either have to be very fast on your feet or willing to go to fists or wrestling with the suspect. These 2 alternatives are not the best solution. I'm 75 years old and I have no intention of standing toe to toe with someone when my life is in danger, therefore I will fall back on training and experience to solve the problem. The absolute best way is to negotiate your way out, document with photos, video and a written narrative and contact the local authorities when you can. As stated before by others, a striking implement ( baseball bat, tire checker etc) may be the best alternative, legal to have with you, but know how to use it. Hopefully you'll never be in a situation where that puts you where you need to act with force or violence. Global and situational awareness are critical in everything you do. Hopefully this helps.

 

[freak4life]

OK, If you use less lethal munitions, spray or electric shock or other tools, sometimes they don't work or the suspect is so drugged up they are ineffective, then you either have to be very fast on your feet or willing to go to fists or wrestling with the suspect. These 2 alternatives are not the best solution. I'm 75 years old and I have no intention of standing toe to toe with someone when my life is in danger, therefore I will fall back on training and experience to solve the problem. The absolute best way is to negotiate your way out, document with photos, video and a written narrative and contact the local authorities when you can. As stated before by others, a striking implement ( baseball bat, tire checker etc) may be the best alternative, legal to have with you, but know how to use it. Hopefully you'll never be in a situation where that puts you where you need to act with force or violence. Global and situational awareness are critical in everything you do. Hopefully this helps.

Thanks Jim, but I’m not sure how “global awareness” will help in a situation where you have to decide lethal/nonlethal in a split second. I would suggest the decision between lethal/nonlethal be made before you ever are in a situation where that is an issue.
Just my .02cents though.

 

[FishinCrzy]

Non-lethally speaking, I have had several occasions that a really powerful spotlight was effective at deterring wildlife and one pesky deputy that came in on my camp in the middle of the night shining lights at my tent. I flipped on the spot an hollered in my best redneck drawl, "Don't start no shit, won't be no shit!". He flipped his blue light and I cut mine off as did he. Then, he continued to text his girlfriend or whatever and left me alone. Works good on raccoons too. My point being, if you can blind somebody or something that takes the aggression away....momentarily at least, without having to get all up close and personal. Sprays, batons, axe handles, knives, or even pistols, all require close proximity...not the best scenario. Flash bang grenades and well placed claymores are highly effective so I am told

 

[Murphy Slaw]

Nothing like a nice piece of hickory...

Clint Eastwood - Nice piece of Hickory - YouTube

 

[DocAldo]

Lol