Millertime's No ifs ands or buts

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Smileyshaun

Rank V
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Member III

2,779
Happy Valley, OR, USA
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Shaun
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Hoffman
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4799

Make sure to tighten down your shackle bolts and spring bolts to the proper torque most only takes 60 foot pounds if that, a real issue most people run into is over tightening the bolts which leads to a lot of binding in the spring itself also your shackle angle is very important with ride quality if they're too straight up and down or too far laid-back it does not allow the spring to travel properly like it should. Getting greasable shackle bolts is always a nice upgrade and keeping the pads on the end of each Leaf properly greased.
 

Damil

Rank III

Advocate II

Good advice on bolt tightness, I will have to check immediately. Both, front and rear shackles are close to 45 degrees which I believe is ideal. I greased the front when I bought the truck but the rears do not have fittings (something I can easily add). I will also have to pick up some spring clips/clamps since my front leaf springs have been moving out of line.

The first problem I will have to attack before I can do anything farther with suspension modification is my high steer/oil pan clearance. Originally, the drag link rubbed against the oil pan out crawling, since then, a bump stop on the passengers side was placed to eliminate any further damage. It was a much needed band-aid fix, but now its time to fix the real problem.

Currently at ride height, my up travel before bump is a wopping 1-3/4" (assuming this is not full bump). Driving around town, its usually not an issue... I have only hit the bumpstop a couple times on some larger pot holes. But my truck is also riding stiff in the front with some hd POS rough country shocks... So, of course, if I start changing shock valving to fit my needs I will probably be bumping all of the time.












Starting a Con list on possible fixes...

1. Raise the powertrain for more room
Con - hood clearence, front driveline angle, a lot of work for probably little change and more headaches..

2. Bent drag link
Con - potential leaf spring interference when articulating on drivers side, would have to be a very minimal bend which are hard to come by, and don't like bent drag links to begin with for strength and adjust ability.

3. Rotate gear box a few degrees downward
Con - A bit of work, could have steering bind issues, would have to modify front body mount and relocate some other its and bits inside.

4. Offset tie rod end
Con - Cannot honestly think of any cons other than it may not give me enough clearance I am looking for.

5. Add 1/2" between spring and axle
Con - I hate "block" lifts due to adding even more axle wrap stress on the leafs. Keep in mind it would only be 1/2" piece of steel between the pack and the axle, similar to adding another leaf to the pack.



My goal is to have 2" before bump and I will be running 2" air bumps, so some how I have to get 4" of up travel before frame contact.
 
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Damil

Rank III

Advocate II

On to the next topic.. axle wrap, or anti-wrap bars. Its probably one of the largest heated topics when it comes to leaf springs that I have come across. I have ran without them and with them on trail trucks and it made night and day difference with power and stability.... the only problem is that I didn't care about the inverse effects of binding on leaf springs on a vehicle that was rarely driven on the road. But now with a daily driver.... binding is more of a concern from a wear-and-tear perspective.


Ill try and make quick explanation of the binding problems with a wrap bar. As a leaf spring compresses and droops, the axle pinion stays within a few degrees (normally), it just goes up and down.... but with an anti-wrap bar, the pinion degree will follow the bar in a circular motion. Either way, an anti-wrap bar is going to bind, it just depends on how much and to what degree....


THE REAR

I took a degree finder and placed it on the pinion of the rear axle. I then measured from the point of the truck where the end of the anti-wrap bar would connect. At static height the rear pinion was at 18.5*.. and after lifting the rear end (before the tires come off the ground) my new degree was 16*....NEGATIVE!.... meaning the pinion angle actually shot downwards instead of upwards like I originally had planned, which is really odd. Now taking my anti-wrap bar measurements (making the bar as long as possible) and created a new graph to find the degree angle at the same height measurements... It gave me a difference of 4* positive.

So at full droop, the leaf springs are producing a -2.5* and the anti-wrap bar would be producing a +4*... giving me a 6.5* change difference. In other words, they would be fighting each other......

(Now if the rear end did what I thought was going to happen and give a positive 2.5* which would have made more sense since the shackle is behind the axle, it would have only been a 1.5* difference which would be very reasonable bind and no issue)


THE FRONT




The front is a little bit more complicated. Since my axle is pushed 3/4 of the leaf spring, the degree angle changes more dramatically. Since I have rear shackles on the front leafs, the anti-wrap bar would have to go on the front of the axle to compliment the leaf spring produced degree changes.

At static height, the flat bottom gusset showed +4*, at full droop, the axle showed 0*. Now given the very small amount of room and making the bar as long as possible given my situation, I did the same thing I did with the rear and plotted out the degree difference with an anti-wrap bar given my possible variables. From static to full droop, the bar would have a difference of 9.1*.

So at full droop, the leaf springs are producing a +4* and the anti-wrap bar would be producing a +9.1*... giving me a 5.1* change difference. Surprisingly, the front would actually bind less than the rear (which probably has a lot to do with axle placement on the leaf springs)

(also, as you will notice, I did a mid droop measurement to see how true of a progression the degree of change was.... midway between measurements, the axle only changed by 1*, YET, at double the height it went up to 4*) Leaf springs are so unpredictable damnit)

BUT with that said, if my normal road suspension cycling stays within that mid droop or less area... I am only looking at around 3.8* difference. If it is true about the rear, than I would have 3.25* difference as well......




So, I guess at this point, the question is... what degree bind is too much......? Remember, this is at full droop and I didn't do compression numbers, so unless I am jumping the truck, I shouldn't ever really see these extreme numbers......




The only other issue is the anti-squat figure..... Both bars will be producing an anti-squat force on the truck (Front would only do it in 4 wheel drive). I am not a fan of anti-squat and would try and eliminate it as much as possible in link designs and have had great luck by doing so..... and I have NEVER had anti-squat in the front.... so I have no idea what would happen or how the truck would act! My thinking is that front AS will make torquing over obstacles more difficult because the axle is trying to come up over the obstacle and the torque of the engine is trying to force the axle down into the obstacle........ I guess I need to do more research on this and see if anyone has had any experience with front AS.
 
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Smileyshaun

Rank V
Launch Member

Member III

2,779
Happy Valley, OR, USA
First Name
Shaun
Last Name
Hoffman
Member #

4799

One advantage of raising the drivetrain is you can essentially make it a flat belly . 4crawler makes some nice motor mount spacers .
 

Damil

Rank III

Advocate II

I decided to try and reverse the anti-wrap bar and go back behind the axle which will give me the negative anti-squat I need for the truck to perform correctly. The only problem is the more the axle droops, the more aggressive my degrees get (similar to what I am running into with the rear axle and bar)....

At full droop, I now have a difference of 7.4* (originally was 5.1*), BUT at mid droop I only have a difference of 2.7* which is actually better than the front anti-wrap bar idea by .9* !

The other problem is since the bar has to be located offset on the axle to clear oil pan, etc.... when articulating, that 7.4* may come into play more often...


So....... I personally think a front anti-wrap bar facing back towards the belly of the truck is a possibility and may actually be better as long as the springs can handle that 7.4* bind during extreme articulation....
 

Damil

Rank III

Advocate II

One advantage of raising the drivetrain is you can essentially make it a flat belly . 4crawler makes some nice motor mount spacers .
I will look into the motor mounts and will have to measure my engine-to-hood. Because I am running a 3RZ, I may not have enough clearance.... as far as raising the trans and case, I would have to cut out a section of the tunnel to make it fit. Right now I have 1/4" clearance from the top of the disk to the bottom of the tunnel. Definitely something I can look into. I dont see getting 2" but I could definitely get 1/2" - 1" out of it.......




But I do agree... if I can get that engine up 1" higher that would actually make a huge difference.... thanks man! I will be looking into!
 
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Damil

Rank III

Advocate II

On a more productive note.... Finally got the new limiting switches in, so much better than the old POS that I tried to use.


Everything is officially wired up, rockn and rollin!

Since I was running 12v to the bed, I decided to purchase some red LEDs for the cargo area. I went with red because it does not effect your eyes at night. I also plan on doing the same for the interior of the cab.





 

Damil

Rank III

Advocate II

Well, after looking further into building a rear anti-wrap bar and the work that was involved with doing so, I decided to continue with my idea of doing a 3 link build on the rear end. Personally, I don't mind leaf springs so much in the rear, its the front that really needs links IMO... but, if I am going to do an anti-wrap bar, I mind as well build the 3 link rear that I wanted, minus the coil overs...

Right now I have all of my links and heims from my old build. I also have all of my frame side mounts and limiting straps. I plan on using a pair of stocker cherokee coils (which seems to be a common choice for full body toyotas). I am already running 5125s out back which seem to be doing a great job. I mapped out my geometry for the 3 link and was actually pretty happy with the results, at least on paper. $150 for a sheet of 1/4 steel and some $20 cherokee springs, some time, some beer.... and I should have the 63's for sale hopefully within the next 3 months.
 
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Damil

Rank III

Advocate II

More stuff from ruffstuff...



Rear 3 link bungs and lower axle side hiem mounts (3/8" bad boys). Rest is for the front end, still waiting on the shock tower hoops, should be here monday.


Since I only hammock camp, there are 3 major issues I run into. Rain protection is only while IN the hammock, which is only when I am sleeping. Changing is done outside of the hammock which means changing on dirt/mud. And lastly is setting up at night, which already sucks with a tent, but becomes even more difficult with a hammock.

- Bought a 3' x 5' rug for $10.... something I can lay on a muddy ground and able to take my gear off and on.
- Picked up some LED string lights that go 20' and run off any USB battery source.
- Ordered a much larger rainfly just for the back of the truck. Now I can pull out all of my gear and change undercover.
 
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Smileyshaun

Rank V
Launch Member

Member III

2,779
Happy Valley, OR, USA
First Name
Shaun
Last Name
Hoffman
Member #

4799

my hammock tent has a good sized rain fly over it that does a good job of keeping most the ground under it dry ,in the rig toss in a quick shade and a tarp and you can have quite the dry spot on a rainy/snowy dayIMG_5754.PNG
 
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