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Legal Weapons and Overlanding
- Thread starter NorthStar96
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Just keep in mind this is not how it works in some states. Here in MN, if I insert myself in to a situation, I'm going to be liable. Sucks, but, that's the law.
Also, as far as OC, outside of in the woods, I've done it once in my life in the city. It was a specific moment / transaction that warranted OC. Pros and cons as well as risk / gain were weighed.
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Sorry but Ted Bundy never confronted any armed citizens as far as I know. Ted was a necrophile sexual stalker, not a cheap gas station hold up jerk. How many people like Ted will any of us likely to come across. He was a stealth killer and totally nuts.
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As most OC'ers would say "I'd rather face 12 of my piers in court than 6 friends hauling my dead ass to a 6' hole in the ground" ! Life is full of challenges and I'm not one to put my head in a hole in the ground.
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Personally, I like the element of surprise that CC gives me. Sorta of an edge on the would-be Perp.
That's where the whole inserting yourself in a situation comes up. If it's me in a convivence store and two knuckleheads come in to get the register, I'm cool as a cucumber until they leave. Not my money, not my store. I have a wife and a child to go home to everyday. NOW... if they start shooting and I'm in danger.... that's a different story. Castle doctrine laws and or " Duty to retreat" laws play in.
Also, those "judged by 12 of my peers" comments always get me. Have you ever been through a trial? have you spent even one night in a jail? Even one that is dismissed or you are found innocent? Your life is still turned upside down. YOU pay for legal counsel, YOU bail out and are probably on some kind of conditional release for months as the trial goes on and despite the fact that they claim "guilty until proven innocent" that's not the reality. You are battling for your life. NOT ME. NOPE. I'll blend in with the potato chips until the crooks leave.
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That's okay too if you have the bucks for the license. BTW, most states don't charge the high fee's that NM does. Our Governor is not through with us gun owners yet. She has some big "Bloomberg surprises" for us. CC gives states to much info about my guns to suit me. That's another reason to keep it to yourself !
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What made Ted Bundy dangerous wasn’t the his tools and capability alone. It was his ability to conceal everything about himself. He could conceal his intentions and capabilities so well that he could get close to those women. And by the time he reveled his intentions and capabilities it was too late for them. Those women didn’t have a snowballs chance of success by that time. He did not revel his true self until he had positioned himself for the maximum chance of success.
Now let’s take these lessons and apply it to the “cheap gas station jerk”. He will be concealing his tools, intentions, and capabilities until he has placed himself in the position of advantage to accomplish his goal. However you are better at concealing your tools and capabilities, you now have the opportunity to put yourself in a position of advantage. Thus you are acting against an adversary instead of reacting. action alway beats reaction.
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Yes Sean I have been in jail, I have been through the hell of trials, I know what it's all about, it is no picnic. I still have problems obtaining my weapons in the NICS (eventually I get them legally) system because of the false charges against me not any convictions. I have no convictions and I haven't broken any of Gods Laws. Man made laws are inherently unfair to as many as they are good to others. There was a time when I had family to think about and I did. I fault you not for your opinion on that. I would agree with you on when to act and when not to act. I have said all along it is when I am in danger of being harmed that I will react. My firearm is for MY protection and others around me if they are unlucky (maybe lucky) enough to be there. I am older than you and therefore have a much different opinion about guns, laws, right and wrong, as I see it. That doesn't make me right or wrong, it just make me a individual who has an opinion. Opinions change from time to time as life changes around you. The one thing that bothers me about the 12 jurors, is their opinion of the facts going to decide their judgement or will it be the factual truth that decides their judgement. It's happening today in our own Congress. Words have meaning just like deeds, it is intention that counts but justice is truly blind at times just like the people who make the laws. My wish has always been that the people who make the laws have to be served justice by them when it is their turn to be judged.
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If you follow this video serrano of the situation there is no doubt it could be true, IF you let it. His serrano of the outcome is his opinion because that is his experience. First for me , I would not let a lawyer plea bargain for me. That cuts half the cost right there. Second if I had to defend myself I would, but I would let the laws that protect my right to trial by jury and to be defended by someone appointed to the courts to defend me stand. (remember I have no family to consider in my decisions) Third, I am man enough to stand up to a conviction by my piers, even if they are wrong. Rarely does anyone get a death sentence unless it is a heinous crime. Being sent to prison is still better than being dead . So you see, it's still a matter of Opinion on what is right or wrong !
@Lanlubber you are correct. One thing I told my wife when we had our Son was "I no longer have the right to die" which meant I needed to exclude my self from the shenanigans that a young man gets in to as it was my responsibility to be there for him as he grows up. BUT.... after spending 3 days in jail waiting to bail out on false charges and spending thousands of dollars on a lawyer and 6 months waiting for a trial that never happened, I'll avoid any situation that even puts me close to that. Don't get me wrong, I'll scorch the earth if someone tries to hurt my Wife or Son, but...….
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Bundy may have been sly in a way that the CC gun owners would be by the concealment of their weapon , that is your suggestion ? Bundy is dead now from his slyness. Bundy's victims were not the victims of a would be hold up artist. I have real doubt that any bad guy would ever know I was carrying in 99% of a crime situation. Police don't conceal, they are deterrants just by being visual because they do have a gun. Not my arguement though. Your opinion is based on what ?
If it is based on law enforcement educational training and possible experience then I can see your point, but that still makes it only an opinion not a fact. If it's from a personal experience then you are entitled to your views as am I. Law enforcement in it self is a reaction against the adversary in most cases. One never knows when something is going to happen. However you decide to go, CC or OC (IMO) is taking a stand against a criminal act or an act of protecting ones self from a criminal attack. CC or no CC if someone wants to prosicute you for your actions it will happen, that cant be stopped. Let it be, let it be !
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@The other Sean, I get that Sean, I was arrested, jailed, released on bond, defended by my Lawyer, cased dropped etc.etc. I had six kids and a wife at the time and my so called offense was in defense of one of my kids who was beaten up by a coupe of older high school football thugs at a party where all the kids were drunk. I didn't do anything physical to these two thugs ( I would have ) but I did threaten them to stay away from my kid and I invited them to come out of their hiding place so I could beat the S - - - out of them. I went to their house to talk to their parents but they were not there so I had my say to the thugs. Both were 200 pound football players and senior wrestling team members that could have kicked my ass if they had teamed up, but both were cowards as most thugs are. When they wouldn't come out of their house I left. An hour later the sheriff showed up and arrested me on a warrant the parents filed for the protection of their coward sons. Process began, it was a felony charge. The judge dismissed the case before it went to trial but the arrest record was never removed from my file. This is not as serious as shooting someone I know but it could have easily turned to that had I witnessed the criminal act of the two boys, who used base ball bats for their weapons. So it boils down to when is the right time to take action and when not. I would not have reacted differently had guns been involved or if it had been a convenience store being robbed, or a car jacking incident. There are times when the danger cannot be avoided which is always the BEST route if it can be had.
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You absolutely are entitled to have your own opinion, as is everyone else. This is only a discussion about principles and methods to defend ones self. I may be challenging your point of view, only as a means to get you to rationalize your position. In the process, you may challenge my position, and I will have to think it through more throughly. This is where learning can occur. The process only makes us better. The discussion could also be beneficial to others reading our discussion as well.
To continue the discussion, I brought up Bundy as one example of a high level predator, who was a master of concealment. Most criminals are masters of concealment. They have been practicing concealment from a young age. Hiding drugs from their mom, or weapons from school officials, to hiding intentions or evidence from a criminal investigation. They will be concealing there tools, intention, and ability right up until they are in a position of advantage to maximize success and achieve their goals. They might not be thinking about it in the sophisticated manner I’m presenting, but they are doing it.
We can do the same thing. If you are a law abiding gun toter, the “would be hold up artist” will have the element of surprise. My goal is to take that back from him. By allowing him to underestimate me, I have regained the ability to decide the outcome. I can comply, or fake comply until I can exit the situation or position myself to rapidly escalate to a higher level of violence and win the fight. If Im pumping gas, and the bad guy sees a gun on my hip, and he’s not deterred by that, then I’m in a gunfight before I even had a chance to orient myself to the situation. I could be in a gunfight before I even got my gun out of the holster because I have completely givin up the element of surprise.
As to cops being a deterrent, they aren’t deterrents only because they are openly displaying a gun. They are a deterrent because they will continue to press the fight until the suspect is either dead or in custody. They have a different mission and different tools to accomplish it then we do. Even if the bad guy kills the first officer, more will be coming, and they won’t stop coming until he’s dead or caught. They will be coming with armor, rifles, and even a bomb robot in the case of the Dallas shooter. They have the ability to escalate to and overwhelming level of violence that private citizens do not, and that is where their deterrence comes from.
To continue the discussion, I brought up Bundy as one example of a high level predator, who was a master of concealment. Most criminals are masters of concealment. They have been practicing concealment from a young age. Hiding drugs from their mom, or weapons from school officials, to hiding intentions or evidence from a criminal investigation. They will be concealing there tools, intention, and ability right up until they are in a position of advantage to maximize success and achieve their goals. They might not be thinking about it in the sophisticated manner I’m presenting, but they are doing it.
We can do the same thing. If you are a law abiding gun toter, the “would be hold up artist” will have the element of surprise. My goal is to take that back from him. By allowing him to underestimate me, I have regained the ability to decide the outcome. I can comply, or fake comply until I can exit the situation or position myself to rapidly escalate to a higher level of violence and win the fight. If Im pumping gas, and the bad guy sees a gun on my hip, and he’s not deterred by that, then I’m in a gunfight before I even had a chance to orient myself to the situation. I could be in a gunfight before I even got my gun out of the holster because I have completely givin up the element of surprise.
As to cops being a deterrent, they aren’t deterrents only because they are openly displaying a gun. They are a deterrent because they will continue to press the fight until the suspect is either dead or in custody. They have a different mission and different tools to accomplish it then we do. Even if the bad guy kills the first officer, more will be coming, and they won’t stop coming until he’s dead or caught. They will be coming with armor, rifles, and even a bomb robot in the case of the Dallas shooter. They have the ability to escalate to and overwhelming level of violence that private citizens do not, and that is where their deterrence comes from.
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@Salty4Life I can live with either pro or con CC or OC opinion easily. I don't have anything else to add or delete to the conversation. It is good that the discussion can continue and I will enjoy other opinions from others as well. I will note that even with this good discussion, neither of us has changed the others mind to any extent that we would change our actions. I'll let this thread get back to the original subject on Legal weapons and Overlanding.
Sorry @NorthStar96 , maybe a new thread should be started concerning CC or OC issues.
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At least it is a constructive thread discussion and not a dumb flying car !
I never said stupid, the fact that he was very intelligent actually backs up my statement. He would never have taken a risk if he could calculate a way around it. And Ted Bundy was very much a coward. His victims were women and girls, one at a time. He would have never been confrontational to an armed person, let alone a man.
