How do the first gen Xterras/Frontiers compare to 1G Tacomas/3G 4runners?

[smritte]

To your point, IMO the Tacoma got too big and heavy for its own good after the 1st gen. The 3rd gen is a much nicer truck than a 1st gen, but it's basically the same size as a first gen Tundra.

This is due to the Japanese trying to grab share of the full size truck market. I always loved my minitrucks but they were designed for inner city and non American roads. As time went on, there was a better world marked for bigger. My Tacoma is a bit bigger then a 1/2 ton full size truck pre 96.

 

[rgallant]

One thing on the Nissen, Land Rover and even Toyota (early on not anymore) to a large extent they gave up on the US market. Jeep was probably and still is the leader in 4x4 sales in the US. Add in various buy-American initiatives, tariffs etc made the US market a tough sell. So lots of outstanding 4x4 never made it to North America, Patrol, Troopers, original Defender in any numbers etc there was just not enough market along with various emissions issues, and they were diesel, which were really disliked in the US for along time. But having driven some of the early US car/pickup diesels they were pretty awful.

 

[tjZ06]

The answer to that question is no. However, if you look at the curves, the vg33 makes peak torque, then slowly falls off, whereas the vq40 makes peak torque at right around 4000, then falls off very quickly.

VG33E:
View attachment 254724

VQ40:
View attachment 254725

I'm seriously not trying to be combative, but the curves you provided (thanks for those) seem like the answer is "yes" and prove my point. Let's just look at 1500 RPM as a good example, since the torque converter in these things flash to at least that (and if you're in a manual you're prob not operating it below 1500). VG I see ~125 ft-lb at 1500. VQ I see maybe 190 ft-lb at 1500? So, yes the VG makes peak torque far lower, but my point was the VQ still out-torques it everywhere. Or let's look at the VG's peak of 200 ft-lb at what looks to be 2700 RPM... the VQ is making 260 ft-lbs at the same RPM.

I've had this same discussion with WJ guys over and over re: 4.0L vs. 4.7L and it's the same point: just because the latter makes it's peak TQ at a higher RPM, it doesn't mean it isn't also making MORE torque at the former's torque peak RPM.

Okay, off my soapbox now... :D ;)

-TJ

 

[smritte]

here was just not enough market along with various emissions issues, and they were diesel, which were really disliked in the US for along time. But having driven some of the early US car/pickup diesels they were pretty awful.

I can do a whole page on the history around why this happened. Two words, politics and propaganda.

 

[Arkansas_SR5]

I can do a whole page on the history around why this happened. Two words, politics and propaganda.

I always wondered why Nissan stopped selling the Patrol after the 1960s. I think the GQ and GU patrols would’ve been big sales hits here, even with the thirsty petrol engines. Look at how many Wranglers Jeep sells for instance.

It’s also a bit puzzling why foreign automakers refused to bring their diesels here, even before 2007 when our emissions laws weren’t so onerous. Sure, the GM diesels sucked in the 80s, but the TD42t and 1HD-FTE were superb engines. Before someone sells diesels don’t sell, look at all the coal-rolling brodozers that are ubiquitous across the country. They sold just fine.

Even Land Rover made an excellent TDI engine in the Disco 1 that returned 30 mpg while being very capable off road.

 

[reaver]

I'm seriously not trying to be combative, but the curves you provided (thanks for those) seem like the answer is "yes" and prove my point. Let's just look at 1500 RPM as a good example, since the torque converter in these things flash to at least that (and if you're in a manual you're prob not operating it below 1500). VG I see ~125 ft-lb at 1500. VQ I see maybe 190 ft-lb at 1500? So, yes the VG makes peak torque far lower, but my point was the VQ still out-torques it everywhere. Or let's look at the VG's peak of 200 ft-lb at what looks to be 2700 RPM... the VQ is making 260 ft-lbs at the same RPM.

I've had this same discussion with WJ guys over and over re: 4.0L vs. 4.7L and it's the same point: just because the latter makes it's peak TQ at a higher RPM, it doesn't mean it isn't also making MORE torque at the former's torque peak RPM.

Okay, off my soapbox now... :D ;)

-TJ

I didn't view your question as combative at all! I thought you were asking if the vg33e makes more torque at any point than the vq, to which my answer was no, it doesn't (also backed up with data to show it). I apologize if that was misunderstood.

So, I was agreeing with what you said. We are good, yo!

 

[tjZ06]

I didn't view your question as combative at all! I thought you were asking if the vg33e makes more torque at any point than the vq, to which my answer was no, it doesn't (also backed up with data to show it). I apologize if that was misunderstood.

So, I was agreeing with what you said. We are good, yo!

Yeah, I probably worded it poorly. Was just saying it's similar to what you hear from Jeep people about the 4.0L I6: "it's a torque monster, it makes more torque down-low because its peak is lower..." but it's not that it makes more torque down low, it just never ends up making any HP. Lol

Anyway, back on-track for the OP: I'd still consider 2nd Gen Xterra/Frontier in addition to 1st Gen, but as always it all comes down to budget really...

-TJ

 

[reaver]

Yeah, I probably worded it poorly. Was just saying it's similar to what you hear from Jeep people about the 4.0L I6: "it's a torque monster, it makes more torque down-low because its peak is lower..." but it's not that it makes more torque down low, it just never ends up making any HP. Lol

Anyway, back on-track for the OP: I'd still consider 2nd Gen Xterra/Frontier in addition to 1st Gen, but as always it all comes down to budget really...

-TJ

The 2nd Gen definitely makes more power throughout it's entire range. It also has better transfer case gearing than the first Gen. But, 1dt Gen has better axle ratios, manual transfer case, and stronger drive train.

Here's what I tell people, because this is the route I went. If you're interested in the Nissan d22 and D/N40 platforms. Ask yourself one question....

Do I intend to daily it?

If the answer is yes, seriously consider the 2nd Gen.

If no, then I say get a first Gen. It's more durable, and better suited to offroad use. Any shortcomings can be addressed as well.

 

[Arkansas_SR5]

The 2nd Gen definitely makes more power throughout it's entire range. It also has better transfer case gearing than the first Gen. But, 1dt Gen has better axle ratios, manual transfer case, and stronger drive train.

Here's what I tell people, because this is the route I went. If you're interested in the Nissan d22 and D/N40 platforms. Ask yourself one question....

Do I intend to daily it?

If the answer is yes, seriously consider the 2nd Gen.

If no, then I say get a first Gen. It's more durable, and better suited to offroad use. Any shortcomings can be addressed as well.

The front diff and especially CVs are always gonna be my concern with an IFS vehicle. I recall you said these are stouter in the Xterra than a contemporary Toyota however. Those are definitely a limiting factor once you go over 33s and start doing harder trails in a Tacoma.

 

[reaver]

The front diff and especially CVs are always gonna be my concern with an IFS vehicle. I recall you said these are stouter in the Xterra than a contemporary Toyota however. Those are definitely a limiting factor once you go over 33s and start doing harder trails in a Tacoma.

People run 33's on a first gen all the time, and I've not heard of CV's breaking. Maybe with a lifted wheel and a front locker, but that's not isolated to the Xterra's. I've heard of ripped boots, but that can happen to any vehicle.

I'm running 265/75r16's on mine, and haven't had a single issue with my CV's.

 

[Arkansas_SR5]

People run 33's on a first gen all the time, and I've not heard of CV's breaking. Maybe with a lifted wheel and a front locker, but that's not isolated to the Xterra's. I've heard of ripped boots, but that can happen to any vehicle.

I'm running 265/75r16's on mine, and haven't had a single issue with my CV's.

Yea there’s a lot of factors that go into it. IME IFS Toyotas break a lot of CVs and front diffs in places like Moab with more constant traction, compared to the muddy and slick trails out east.

 

[smritte]

My 19 Tacoma front is pretty much all FJ Cruiser. If I was going to hard core wheel it, I would end up with RCV axles. The front diff should hold up but, low gears, locker, traction a tiny bit of case flex and boom.
When I read about people breaking diff's in anything, the first questions I ask are, what size tires, gear ratio, manufacture and who installed it. Last is how much foot you gonna need.

Max gear ratio is based on diff size. Diff size is based on torque. If people are breaking properly set up diff's in anything, the diff is too small for the application. I hear people complain about this every now and then. They don't understand the math involved and assume it will hold. This is why we run bigger diffs in hard core rigs.

The front diff is also just an 8 inch. That's slightly smaller than a dana44 which is 8.5. The 44 is actually quite a bit stronger and an iron housing unlike the Toyota's aluminum. I've broken dana 44's with 35" tires. Due to the size of the 44 pinion, 4.88 is as low as you should go. The Toyota pinion is slightly smaller and people go to 5.29's....ugh.

When people choose a vehicle for off road, most of this we don't care about. If your going to drive it hard, you need to care about it.

 

[Arkansas_SR5]

My 19 Tacoma front is pretty much all FJ Cruiser. If I was going to hard core wheel it, I would end up with RCV axles. The front diff should hold up but, low gears, locker, traction a tiny bit of case flex and boom.
When I read about people breaking diff's in anything, the first questions I ask are, what size tires, gear ratio, manufacture and who installed it. Last is how much foot you gonna need.

Max gear ratio is based on diff size. Diff size is based on torque. If people are breaking properly set up diff's in anything, the diff is too small for the application. I hear people complain about this every now and then. They don't understand the math involved and assume it will hold. This is why we run bigger diffs in hard core rigs.

The front diff is also just an 8 inch. That's slightly smaller than a dana44 which is 8.5. The 44 is actually quite a bit stronger and an iron housing unlike the Toyota's aluminum. I've broken dana 44's with 35" tires. Due to the size of the 44 pinion, 4.88 is as low as you should go. The Toyota pinion is slightly smaller and people go to 5.29's....ugh.

When people choose a vehicle for off road, most of this we don't care about. If your going to drive it hard, you need to care about it.

I’m sticking to 32s and the stock 4.10s in my current Tacoma.. I don’t wanna tempt fate. Unfortunately mine is a 96 so it doesn’t have any traction aids. It’s mostly used for touring and mild-moderate trails though. For any more difficult tracks I’d wanna go out with a group. I do find the shorter wheelbase and possibly stronger drivetrain of the Nissans appealing though, even if the engines might not last quite as long.

 

[slomatt]

Thanks for the write up. Did the Nissan hold up better to this kind of wheeling? I’ve seen that generation of Toyota IFS have a lot of problems on trails like that, especially with a front locker and on tires bigger than 33”.

My T4R hasn't had any significant issues while wheeling, and I've been on multiple trips with groups of T4Rs on 32 and 33" tires and again there were no problems.

If I remember correctly the XTerra had an issue with aftermarket front locking hubs (screws sheared off), but those weren't Nissan's fault. I've been on many trips with large numbers of XTerras (sometimes 15+) and the only semi-common failure that I can think of is bending the tie rods which is a known weakness, but also something that was easy to upgrade.

Both have IFS up front and running larger than 33" tires and/or a locker is going to put the CVs and front diff at risk. I think the XTerra has a 7.09" ring gear and the T4R has a 7.50", so in theory the Toyota's gears are likely stronger. That said, I've never personally seen either have a CV or front diff failure on the trail, though I'm sure it happens. Mechanical sympathy is the key, if a heavy wheel is spinning and suddenly gets traction (like on slick rock) then the shock loading can easily cause a failure. I blew apart the front CV drive shaft on my ZJ using this method. :)

 

[reaver]

My T4R hasn't had any significant issues while wheeling, and I've been on multiple trips with groups of T4Rs on 32 and 33" tires and again there were no problems.

If I remember correctly the XTerra had an issue with aftermarket front locking hubs (screws sheared off), but those weren't Nissan's fault. I've been on many trips with large numbers of XTerras (sometimes 15+) and the only semi-common failure that I can think of is bending the tie rods which is a known weakness, but also something that was easy to upgrade.

Both have IFS up front and running larger than 33" tires and/or a locker is going to put the CVs and front diff at risk. I think the XTerra has a 7.09" ring gear and the T4R has a 7.50", so in theory the Toyota's gears are likely stronger. That said, I've never personally seen either have a CV or front diff failure on the trail, though I'm sure it happens. Mechanical sympathy is the key, if a heavy wheel is spinning and suddenly gets traction (like on slick rock) then the shock loading can easily cause a failure. I blew apart the front CV drive shaft on my ZJ using this method. :)

This is what I'm talking about when I say the first gens have a stronger drive train. First gens came with an R200A front differential and an H233B rear third member. These were both equipped with 200mm ring gears and came in 4.363, 4.636, and 4.900 ratios.

Second Gen xterra and frontiers came with an R180A front differential and either a c200 rear, or an M226 rear axle (found on the pro-4x). The R180A has a 180mm ring gear. The c200 has a 200mm ring gear, and the m226 has a 226mm ring gear. These were available with 2.937, 3.133, 3.357, 3.538, and 3.692 ratios.

 

[smritte]

When comparing, I believe the bottom line is, does it work for your application? If a 2.4L motor has more then enough power, why do you need an 8L. The same applies to suspension/axles. Its nice to have big axles but, do you actually "need" them or are they nice to have. Myself, I'm hard on my vehicles. I don't do extreme any more but one of my vehicles is driven much harder then the other. My Cruiser has moly axles, reinforced...everything but no lockers. I actually don't need lockers. If I do get them, its just a "nice to have". My Tacoma got new Icon suspension. It sees very little off road, mostly just day trips. Did I need to spend all that money. Yes. The stock suspension really sucked. Its now a more comfortable daily driver as well as off road.

1. What are you going to do? Don't lie. If you say I need a competition rig, are you going to trailer it? No? Are you actually going to race it? No? Is your competition rig also a daily driver? If yes, then your building a street classed race car. I hope its not your only vehicle.
2. What is your prediction for the future? Be realistic. This applies to #1 also but a couple of years down the road. Sometimes its easier to install things you don't need now but will need later. I hate having to rebuild things because I didn't do something when I could have.
3. Again be realistic. Don't put 40's on an 8 inch diff with 18 spline axles. That means, if your going to build something you need to learn it. If your breaking things, its possible you didn't do something correctly or you need a completely diffrent build. If you don't know exactly what I said regarding 8 inch diff and 18 spline axles, you shouldn't be driving your vehicle hard

if your going to just occasionally drive mild to mid trails with moderate tires, there's a bunch of stuff you don't need. You start heavily moding things including tire size or adding a bunch of weight, you need to step back and look at what your building.

 

[reaver]

When comparing, I believe the bottom line is, does it work for your application? If a 2.4L motor has more then enough power, why do you need an 8L. The same applies to suspension/axles. Its nice to have big axles but, do you actually "need" them or are they nice to have. Myself, I'm hard on my vehicles. I don't do extreme any more but one of my vehicles is driven much harder then the other. My Cruiser has moly axles, reinforced...everything but no lockers. I actually don't need lockers. If I do get them, its just a "nice to have". My Tacoma got new Icon suspension. It sees very little off road, mostly just day trips. Did I need to spend all that money. Yes. The stock suspension really sucked. Its now a more comfortable daily driver as well as off road.

1. What are you going to do? Don't lie. If you say I need a competition rig, are you going to trailer it? No? Are you actually going to race it? No? Is your competition rig also a daily driver? If yes, then your building a street classed race car. I hope its not your only vehicle.
2. What is your prediction for the future? Be realistic. This applies to #1 also but a couple of years down the road. Sometimes its easier to install things you don't need now but will need later. I hate having to rebuild things because I didn't do something when I could have.
3. Again be realistic. Don't put 40's on an 8 inch diff with 18 spline axles. That means, if your going to build something you need to learn it. If your breaking things, its possible you didn't do something correctly or you need a completely diffrent build. If you don't know exactly what I said regarding 8 inch diff and 18 spline axles, you shouldn't be driving your vehicle hard

if your going to just occasionally drive mild to mid trails with moderate tires, there's a bunch of stuff you don't need. You start heavily moding things including tire size or adding a bunch of weight, you need to step back and look at what your building.

This might be one of the better worded posts I've read on a forum in quite some time.

If we're being honest with ourselves, the vast majority of us don't need icon shocks, 35in tires, lockers, rooftop tents, or any of the other gear marketed towards overlanders. I always tell people, start with a stock rig, and push that to it's absolute limit before upgrading anything. Only once you've found the upper end of where your vehicle will take you, does upgrading really make sense. If the shocks are ga rbage, and make for a very uncomfortable ride, well, then it's time to replace them.

Same goes for suspension and lifts. If you're constant banging the belly on the ground, then look at lifting and adding skid plates.