Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding

[FishinCrzy]

And people laughed at me when I said Elon Musk has invented a weather machine to disrupt oil prices and drive up the prices and make his machines more affordable. Just keep watching
Currently ALL the refineries in Texas are shut down due to the cold snap. Of course, they will be back up in a few weeks but in the mean time prices will go up, probably significantly.

 

[Sparksalot]

LAst week, with the spike in electric rates, the average Tesla charge was only $900.

 

[MidOH]

Teslas are the equivalent of $8.75 a gallon here. Compared to the economy of a Honda Accord 4cyl. Using the Tesla super charger.

Using a sloooooooow home charger it's the same running cost as a BMW M3.

 

[leeloo]

I'm going to go on a limb and guess you don't offroad too much. In 30 years a lot of innovation has occurred, my shocks isnt just some cruddy gas contained in a simple piston... what about metallurgy of chromoly axles, or the improvements in diff lockers?

Your innovate "because I say so," approach isn't going to produce the results you think they will. Ask yourself, why don't I own one of these magical machines right now? After all, they save money on fuel right?

A lot has to do with energy density. More has to do with this all being uncharted water so trial and error needs to happen.

So if you want to be the ev/hybrid beta test that's your descision. Forcing everyone else to beta test vehicles and put their families at risk by artificially inflating fuel prices and arbitraily creating industry road blocks and legislation is pretty....socialist.

Right now the majority of hybrids don't have live axles so no ability to put in nifty things like diff lockers for serious offroading. They are dependent on AWD and forms of braking and achieve low range through further breaking and forcing CVTs to remain in their low position. All this is inefficient. Plus depending on the computer system the traction control might keep your vehicle stuck in the sand/snow/mud. That happens a lot to AWD vehicles.

Further their propulsion systems haven't been subjected to the abuse of offroad travel. Direct electric wheel/hub assemblies arnt going to withstand the dust, mud, and shockloads applied to them for a long time. Not to mention the extra cooling they will require.

Just a reminder, the Jeep Rubicon 4XE will have an estimated 400 miles range, same as my 6.4L hemi Power Wagon. It will keep its axles, lockers and disconnecting swaybar plus suspension. The battery system though has to have extra cooling. I'm curious to see how it does.

Jeep has pretty good R&D reputation, but guess what...I'm not going to let my family be the beta test. It has to be proven reliable first, and that means existing for some years to work out all the bugs before I put my hard earned coin forth.

@Neuvik
I am not forcing anyone to do anything.
I am saying I hope there will economical alternatives to diesels. A hybrid petrol electric vehicle can be a solution.
in US apparently there is an issue with the gas price, hence the topic. In Europe, prices of fuel were always high , and, on top of that, except wrangler, there is no off road capable big SUV or pickup that is available with a petrol engine.
Some people, like me, for various reasons, don't like modern diesels, and life with them if you do international travel is more complicated . This would solve both problems, in US with the fuel economy, in Europe it will provide an alternative to people who don't want a diesel.
That is all.

Offroad - I have plenty of km under my belt. I have to say - not a lot of sand driving yet, ( I was planning a trip in Morocco summer 2020 that included some sand dunes driving at the edge of Sahara, but got canceled due to covid ) and no river crossings
What beta tester ? hybrid engines are decades old.
The defender is a very simple vehicle, yet very unreliable. So like a lot of things, it will depend on the execution. There are some brands that I trust more than others.


"Right now the majority of hybrids don't have live axles " - No mate, 99 % of all non-comercial vehicles don't have front live axels. There are 4 vehicles in production with live axels left. The wrangler, the 70 series, the suzuki jimny and the G -wagon. That is it. What ever else you can think of like normal pick ups, other SUV's .. all are IFS...

 

[ruralpunk]

There are 4 vehicles in production with live axels left. The wrangler, the 70 series, the suzuki jimny and the G -wagon. That is it. What ever else you can think of like normal pick ups, other SUV's .. all are IFS...

While I do mostly agree with you over all this statement isn't entirely correct. A lot of the heavier pickups still rock SFA's. It' might just be a North America thing cause I know the bigger "swinging dick" trucks are only popular in 'Murcia. I know most if not all of the Ram HD line is SFA.

 

[MazeVX]

I don't think anyone reads anything, or reads on a diagonal. Not talking about hybrids you need to plug in to charge. An those systems are not heavier than your average run of the mill modern diesel plant with all the emission systems.

Since the 80-90 's only 3 things transformed off roading/overlanding/ camping. AT tubeless tires that allows you to run low pressures indefinitely for improved traction, led lights and solar. Time to move on, it has been 30 years, there is room for innovation.
Even now I remember endless discussions and whining about the tubeless tires -- not good, what to you do if you have a puncture, you can't fix it on the side of the road, too expensive and so on...

Yeah the point you miss here is that there is no such groundbreaking thing on hand. Battery powered vehicles are no innovation and not the future. Hybrids neither.
Electric powered vehicles will be the future when we eventually discover that science fiction energy cells everybody is waiting for.
Meanwhile, alternative and synthetic fuels are the future.

Most people forget that the electric power needs to be produced (physical not correct, I know) renewable energy sources have proven to completely unreliable and not nearly capable of generating enough energy.
The, by far, smartest solution would be to use much lighter and more efficient vehicles and the existing infrastructure to introduce synthetic fuels. Which has the capacity to reduce co2 output by more than 50% and its possible for every country in every development stage.

Edit: Toyota J7 series is available with the 4L 6cyl petrol engine with EU6 certification

 

[Defender 90 Keith]

This thread makes me laugh, you think you have high prices across the pond. you really need to check out the prices here in the UK.

Petrol (gasoline) works out to be almost $7 per US Gallon
Diesel works out to be a little over $7 dollars per US Gallon

 

[Neuvik]

@Neuvik
I am not forcing anyone to do anything.
I am saying I hope there will economical alternatives to diesels. A hybrid petrol electric vehicle can be a solution.
in US apparently there is an issue with the gas price, hence the topic. In Europe, prices of fuel were always high , and, on top of that, except wrangler, there is no off road capable big SUV or pickup that is available with a petrol engine.
Some people, like me, for various reasons, don't like modern diesels, and life with them if you do international travel is more complicated . This would solve both problems, in US with the fuel economy, in Europe it will provide an alternative to people who don't want a diesel.
That is all.

Offroad - I have plenty of km under my belt. I have to say - not a lot of sand driving yet, ( I was planning a trip in Morocco summer 2020 that included some sand dunes driving at the edge of Sahara, but got canceled due to covid ) and no river crossings
What beta tester ? hybrid engines are decades old.
The defender is a very simple vehicle, yet very unreliable. So like a lot of things, it will depend on the execution. There are some brands that I trust more than others.


"Right now the majority of hybrids don't have live axles " - No mate, 99 % of all non-comercial vehicles don't have front live axels. There are 4 vehicles in production with live axels left. The wrangler, the 70 series, the suzuki jimny and the G -wagon. That is it. What ever else you can think of like normal pick ups, other SUV's .. all are IFS...

You seem to be reading diagonally...Hybrid systems have not been used offroad to any noticeable degree and for any period of time. Thats all uncharted territory. And it remains to be seen how they will hold up. They are an answer to pavement overlanding for sure.

In America we have many trucks and dedicated trail rigs with solid front axles.

While I do mostly agree with you over all this statement isn't entirely correct. A lot of the heavier pickups still rock SFA's. It' might just be a North America thing cause I know the bigger "swinging dick" trucks are only popular in 'Murcia. I know most if not all of the Ram HD line is SFA.

Everyone is just jelly of our big American endowments

That and we prefer not to have some socialist welfare state take care of us and make random dictates on commodities. Our trucks can go overlanding one day and go to work the next day!

This thread makes me laugh, you think you have high prices across the pond. you really need to check out the prices here in the UK.

Petrol (gasoline) works out to be almost $7 per US Gallon
Diesel works out to be a little over $7 dollars per US Gallon

After you're done laughing to you explain why your fuel costs so much...?

Also $7 for diesel!? I think a lot of diesel owners in your neck of the pond don't understand how the diesel cycle works. Time to burn anything else...maybe give Butler Fuels a call and run Kerosene for half that?

 

[pcstockton]

this is NOT a hobby that for those that want to maximize mileage. PERIOD.

 

[LONO100]

I think gas prices have shot up in the past few weeks because of the winter storms across the country hampering production and logistics, not because of the Paris climate accords, or the Keystone being shut down or fuel taxes. The overall long term demand for fossil fuel is going to be heading into a downward spiral as alternative sources of power continue to be developed.

These alternative fuel sources are developing faster than ever not because "big government" is forcing it down our throats but because it makes more dollars and sense for companies to move in this direction as fossil fuels are finite and solar and wind are renewable. Why would anyone buy a commuter car, and pay for gas, oil changes, transmission services, and so much more when a consumer can buy a vehicle that can be powered from the sun, has no transmission, has way less moving parts and doesnt need regular oil changes? My wife and I already have added solar to our home and plan on purchasing an electric vehicle that we plan to power completely from the energy the panels produce and the free charging station at her work. Or even more scary for all the dinosaurs angrily listening to AM radio. How about a world where nobody will buy, maintain, fuel up and pay insurance for a car just for the purpose of going to work and getting groceries? What if we lived in a world where you decide you need to go to the store, or maybe you're on your way to work and all you do is tell an app on your phone that you need a ride and a driverless vehicle that you dont have to own, fuel up or maintain pulls up to wherever you are and takes you? Well that future is coming too, and this future will make fossil fuels the new salt.

This is not some hippy dippy liberal opinion, just the observations from an engineer in the automotive industry working on these very technologies. It's the way the world is moving and frankly, if you enjoy driving your trucks, Jeeps and SUVs with ICE motors as much as I do, you should embrace this fact. In a future where delivery, fleet and commuter vehicles running completely or at the least partially electric, demand for good ol fossil fuel will diminish, which will decrease prices.

Sorry for the long rant, but there are way too many people getting their ideas about the world, and the marketplace from cable news and and angry old people on the radio. Nobody hates your old gas guzzling truck, you're not the center of the universe and nobody cares about you (or me), the reality is that the market is calling for these electrified vehicles because they make sense. Sticking to fossil fuels would be like sticking to building VCRs when streaming technology is available. The VCR is dead, tapes are worth less than pennies, but guess what? You can still watch movies on tape if you want, no hippies have made that illegal for you. Look at ICE technology in this way and you will find yourself a less salty person. Even the Saudis are diversifying, they know what's coming. One last thing, using the current spike in fuel prices to project the overall future of oil, is like using the weather to forecast climate. The weather is not climate, and today's fuel prices will not dictate the future of oil. The demand for gas and diesel will dictate its future prices and alternative energies will only speed its diminished cost to have it.

 

[Defender 90 Keith]

You seem to be reading diagonally...Hybrid systems have not been used offroad to any noticeable degree and for any period of time. Thats all uncharted territory. And it remains to be seen how they will hold up. They are an answer to pavement overlanding for sure.

In America we have many trucks and dedicated trail rigs with solid front axles.




Everyone is just jelly of our big American endowments

That and we prefer not to have some socialist welfare state take care of us and make random dictates on commodities. Our trucks can go overlanding one day and go to work the next day!




After you're done laughing to you explain why your fuel costs so much...?

Also $7 for diesel!? I think a lot of diesel owners in your neck of the pond don't understand how the diesel cycle works. Time to burn anything else...maybe give Butler Fuels a call and run Kerosene for half that?

My guess is that prices are due to extautionate Taxes from the Government. In comparison to you guys we have always had higher prices. The cost of diesel here always used to be lower than that of petrol until the nation bought Diesel vehicles then strangely the cost rose to above that of petrol. Is that a coincidence or what?

 

[Murphy Slaw]

this is NOT a hobby that for those that want to maximize mileage. PERIOD.

I agree, but the thread was more about how the price doubling or tripling in the next year or so might change your plans / decisions.

Regular gas has gone up 30% here since Nov.

 

[Neuvik]

I think gas prices have shot up in the past few weeks because of the winter storms across the country hampering production and logistics, not because of the Paris climate accords, or the Keystone being shut down or fuel taxes. The overall long term demand for fossil fuel is going to be heading into a downward spiral as alternative sources of power continue to be developed.

These alternative fuel sources are developing faster than ever not because "big government" is forcing it down our throats but because it makes more dollars and sense for companies to move in this direction as fossil fuels are finite and solar and wind are renewable. Why would anyone buy a commuter car, and pay for gas, oil changes, transmission services, and so much more when a consumer can buy a vehicle that can be powered from the sun, has no transmission, has way less moving parts and doesnt need regular oil changes? My wife and I already have added solar to our home and plan on purchasing an electric vehicle that we plan to power completely from the energy the panels produce and the free charging station at her work. Or even more scary for all the dinosaurs angrily listening to AM radio. How about a world where nobody will buy, maintain, fuel up and pay insurance for a car just for the purpose of going to work and getting groceries? What if we lived in a world where you decide you need to go to the store, or maybe you're on your way to work and all you do is tell an app on your phone that you need a ride and a driverless vehicle that you dont have to own, fuel up or maintain pulls up to wherever you are and takes you? Well that future is coming too, and this future will make fossil fuels the new salt.

This is not some hippy dippy liberal opinion, just the observations from an engineer in the automotive industry working on these very technologies. It's the way the world is moving and frankly, if you enjoy driving your trucks, Jeeps and SUVs with ICE motors as much as I do, you should embrace this fact. In a future where delivery, fleet and commuter vehicles running completely or at the least partially electric, demand for good ol fossil fuel will diminish, which will decrease prices.

Sorry for the long rant, but there are way too many people getting their ideas about the world, and the marketplace from cable news and and angry old people on the radio. Nobody hates your old gas guzzling truck, you're not the center of the universe and nobody cares about you (or me), the reality is that the market is calling for these electrified vehicles because they make sense. Sticking to fossil fuels would be like sticking to building VCRs when streaming technology is available. The VCR is dead, tapes are worth less than pennies, but guess what? You can still watch movies on tape if you want, no hippies have made that illegal for you. Look at ICE technology in this way and you will find yourself a less salty person. Even the Saudis are diversifying, they know what's coming. One last thing, using the current spike in fuel prices to project the overall future of oil, is like using the weather to forecast climate. The weather is not climate, and today's fuel prices will not dictate the future of oil. The demand for gas and diesel will dictate its future prices and alternative energies will only speed its diminished cost to have it.

Oh do go on; which old people on the AM radio are you referring too...
Must be on your mind since you refer to it twice in your long rant.

If you are an automotive engineer you should know about fleet average MPG's (CAFE), EPA, and even CARB regulations (did you know about the ZEV cap and trade?) that are crammed down the throat of manufacturers which have directed their course into hybrid tech by force. Even with advances, guess what, they still are only mildly advantageous compared to ICE power plants; and only for city driving. We still need better energy density for batteries. And here in California our fuel prices are completely caused by big government...

I don't see the hybrid tech as a bad thing, its very much an answer for you folks in the city and short commuters. Or on topic, pavement overlanding, with a few jonts onto well maintained forest roads. At this time for overlanding with hybrids will just be running in their ICE due to the miles, so not really in their element.

Your fanciful diatribe into an amazing city life where an app will send a driverless transmissionless car to bring you a soy latte is great, can't wait bro...but in this context of overlanding, we are still in uncharted territory as far as the hybrids/EV vehicles on the trails. They have limited range, and very complex systems that when they fail, fail hard and will leave you stranded. I'm all for new tech, but you are completely forgetting about keeping things simple... If you had a catastrophic failure on your F150, you can easily have someone work on that engine, heck even rip it out and engine swap. You have simple to work on axles too, a driveshaft you could even fashion out of scrap metal to get you out of a bind. Again, hopefully they get that tech dialed, I just don't want to be the beta tester and have my family stranded.

If gasoline gets to expensive I just use my diesels. I can run them pretty much for free, just a little more time for me to source fuels. if Diesel gets to ~$5 a gallon I just grab cooking oil right off the store shelves and turn my tank heater on. So my overlanding won't be affected.

I'm curious though, how come you haven't traded your F150 for a hybrid or EV?

 

[uncompromise]

It’s really tempting to engage with the economic and political dimension of this thread, but @MOAK said everything that I would have said already, and it’s also not the point of this discussion. From our perspective, we minimise our operational expenses overall in order to be able to maximise our expediture on the things we most enjoy. My wife and I travel, a lot, and now that we’re based in France, there is an extraordinary diversity of experiences available to us as overlanders. The cost of fuel will inevitably rise, and at some point we will replace our 16 year old diesel with a brand new hybrid/electric. It won’t be any of the current crop, because 1. We don’t want to be paying for the pleasure of beta-testing a billion dollar corporations first market entry, and 2. Because we don’t have the budget at present. Rising fuel costs will have minimal impact upon our over landing because outside of our daily living expenses, and investing for retirement, travel is our highest priority. Further, until COVID vaccines are widely distributed, neither of us have any desire to get on a plane again any time soon (so if anything our overall fuel expenses will increase over the next year at least since we will be driving considerably more).

 

[Lil Bear]

All I know is diesel is getting higher and higher and my truck isn't drinking it any slower! Combined with DEF and the in my opinion, stupid maintenance that they say I have to do constantly to said truck, it just doesn't pay to have a diesel. I'm seriously contemplating a mid size gasser or SUV. It's hard though because I love the room and ability to take all the crap I want in my truck. I mean there are times I need to haul all my camping equipment, at least 2 mountain bikes, at least 2 kayaks and there's no telling what else! I have though about a trailer with a midsize or 4runner but then I think, am I really saving fuel costs and such then after adding everything and pulling it?? At this point I just need to win the lottery

 

[Brewbud]

For now, I will just grin and bear it as I fill up my truck at whatever price they have. It does gripe me that the dang pump shuts off before the tank is full due to their $ limit. Once I start filling up the passage-making (overwatering?) vessel it will be too hard to ignore. 1000 gallons at a time is going to be a big bill to swallow - and yet I still don't see sails in my future.

 

[Sebt1890]

This isn't a poor man's hobby.

 

[Sebt1890]

On another note, you have to realize that while the U.S could be leading the charge in E.V tech (it is the future, and our companies should gain the biggest marketshare possible to remain dominant) oil and gasoline is not going anywhere. Until the underdeveloped countries have the same infrastructure, we will always have a form of gasoline.

 

[MarioT'sCJResto]

we're AMERICANS...we'll adapt!

View attachment 187467
[/QUOTE

I'll keep my Hemi.

Thanks, though.....

I'll keep my Hemi as well, I'm even thinking about add a Magnuson supercharger to my 5.7.

 

[MOAK]

Oh do go on; which old people on the AM radio are you referring too...
Must be on your mind since you refer to it twice in your long rant.

If you are an automotive engineer you should know about fleet average MPG's (CAFE), EPA, and even CARB regulations (did you know about the ZEV cap and trade?) that are crammed down the throat of manufacturers which have directed their course into hybrid tech by force. Even with advances, guess what, they still are only mildly advantageous compared to ICE power plants; and only for city driving. We still need better energy density for batteries. And here in California our fuel prices are completely caused by big government...

I don't see the hybrid tech as a bad thing, its very much an answer for you folks in the city and short commuters. Or on topic, pavement overlanding, with a few jonts onto well maintained forest roads. At this time for overlanding with hybrids will just be running in their ICE due to the miles, so not really in their element.

Your fanciful diatribe into an amazing city life where an app will send a driverless transmissionless car to bring you a soy latte is great, can't wait bro...but in this context of overlanding, we are still in uncharted territory as far as the hybrids/EV vehicles on the trails. They have limited range, and very complex systems that when they fail, fail hard and will leave you stranded. I'm all for new tech, but you are completely forgetting about keeping things simple... If you had a catastrophic failure on your F150, you can easily have someone work on that engine, heck even rip it out and engine swap. You have simple to work on axles too, a driveshaft you could even fashion out of scrap metal to get you out of a bind. Again, hopefully they get that tech dialed, I just don't want to be the beta tester and have my family stranded.

If gasoline gets to expensive I just use my diesels. I can run them pretty much for free, just a little more time for me to source fuels. if Diesel gets to ~$5 a gallon I just grab cooking oil right off the store shelves and turn my tank heater on. So my overlanding won't be affected.

I'm curious though, how come you haven't traded your F150 for a hybrid or EV?

You keep talking about hybrids and or electrics being useful only for city folks. A couple of winters ago, in the middle of Wyoming a Tesla blew by us. That got my attention. Tesla vehicles have a greater range than my vehicle, and most other overland vehicles by far, and there are charging ports all over the country. Your assumption is wrong, do just a tiny bit of reading. Whenever folks reject any new technology I’m reminded of the same type of folks that rejected the horseless carriages or powered steam boats. There were also laws made back then that “ forced” those with horses to clean up their poop and they too were complaining of government regulations. Imagine Main Street stinking of horse shit on a hot July day. The chain driven truck comes to mind, they were horrible and constantly breaking down, but cartage haulers stuck with them and today we have our transportation industry. I’m not going to get into everything else you have said on this topic, I just don’t have the time, but you really ought to do just the tiniest bit of research before writing, cause as the saying goes, you’ve removed all doubt.