Higher Fuel Prices And Overlanding

[MidOH]

Without viable, high power batteries, that are reasonably eco conscience to manufacturer, hybrid trucks are a pipe dream. The tech just isn't there yet. I know a few companies looked into hydraulic hybrid systems. But they cost as much as upgrading to the diesel engine, so that's not going to sell. I think only garbage trucks tried it.

We're still using brushed engine alternators, for petes sake.

I might consider an ultralight camp trip on my DRZ400. 62+mpg.

 

[BCMoto]

Thats the sad part of it your supposed to plug in and purchase power for your EV. Like when I questioned it once at SEMA where I said we have all this tech to make things but we cant put a alternator or some kind of charger on the EV so you wouldnt need to stop and charge. Thats when I got the evil look and was told that its not possible and it will require a plug in charge.

 

[DMS1]

Any pics, or stories about your trip of a lifetime posted anywhere??

It was not an overlanding trip, but we traveled with an 2WD F150 truck and a 28 foot Travel trailer. Not much overlanding, but we did take the truck on some trails in Moab and the San Juan's that I had done previously in our 4Runners. I had pictures on Google but they ended that service, So I am thinking of putting some of them on Flicker. This is some of what we did:

Vehicles:
2018 Ford F150 XLT - Bought May 2018 - 18 miles on it, 29K miles at end of trip
2013 Forest River - Rockwood Mini Lite - 2502S - 12K miles recorded by F150

National Parks:
Grand Teton NP - Wyoming
Grand Canyon NP - Arizona
Zion NP - Utah
Yellowstone NP - Wyoming, Montana, Idaho
Petrified Forest NP - Arizona
Bryce Canyon NP - Utah
Capitol Reef NP - Utah
Guadalupe Mountains NP - Texas
Yosemite NP - California
Arches NP - Utah
Canyonlands NP - Utah
Carlsbad Caverns NP - New Mexico
Wind Cave NP - South Dakota
Rocky Mountain NP - Colorado
Big Bend NP - Texas


National Monuments:
Little Bighorn Battlefield NM - Montana
Cedar Breaks NM - Utah
Dinosaur NM - Utah
Devils Tower NM - Wyoming

Museums:
Unser Racing Museum - Albuquerque NM
John Wesley Powell River History Museum - Green River UT
Western Mining and Railroad Museum - Helper UT
Tusayan Museum - Grand Canyon AZ
Anasazi State Park Museum - Boulder UT
Laws Railroad Museum - Laws CA
Eastern California Museum - Independence CA
Paiute-Shoshone Cultural Center - Bishop CA
Tucumcari Railroad Museum - Tucumcari NM
Tucumcari Historical Museum - Tucumcari NM
Mesalands Dinosaur Museum - Tucumcari NM
The National Oregon/California Trail Center - Montpelier ID
Central Nevada Museum - Tonopah NV
Tonopah Historic Mining Park - Tonopah NV
Escalante Heritage Center - Escalante UT
St George Dinosaur Discovery Site At Johnsons Farm - St George UT
Rosenbruch World Wildlife Museum - St George UT
Mountain Man Museum - Pinedale WY
Buffalo Bill Center of the West - Cody WY - Best Museum
National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum - Oklahoma City OK

Other:
Red Rock Canyon State Park - CA
Red Canyon Visitor Center - UT
Shoshone Falls Park - ID
Custer State Park - SD
Alamo - TX
Buc-ee's - Worlds Largest Gas Station - New Braunfels TX
Lake Tahoe - CA - NV
Mammoth Lakes - CA
Morimoto Restaurant Las Vegas - NV
Golden Spike National Historical Park - UT
Grizzly & Wolf Discovery Center - MT
Standin' On A Corner - Winslow AZ
Overland Expo West 2019 - Flagstaff AZ
National Scenic Byway 12 - Twice - Once in each direction - UT
Sitting Bull Falls - NM
Josie Sanchez 90th Birthday Party - CA
Ilene Putman 90th Birthday Party - CA
Living Desert State Park - Carlsbad NM
Bearizona Wildlife Park - Williams AZ
Garden of the Gods - Colorado Springs CO
Wall Drug Store - SD
Black Hills - SD
Mount Rushmore - SD
Crazy Horse Memorial - SD
Needles Highway - SD
Bryce Wildlife Adventure - UT
Hubbell Trading Post - Az


States:
California
Nevada
Idaho
Wyoming
Montana
Utah
New Mexico
Texas
Arizona
Oklahoma
South Dakota
Kansas
New Mexico
Nebraska

 

[KF0APA]

It was not an overlanding trip, but we traveled with an 2WD F150 truck and a 28 foot Travel trailer. Not much overlanding, but we did take the truck on some trails in Moab and the San Juan's that I had done previously in our 4Runners. I had pictures on Google but they ended that service, So I am thinking of putting some of them on Flicker. This is some of what we did:

Vehicles:
2018 Ford F150 XLT - Bought May 2018 - 18 miles on it, 29K miles at end of trip
2013 Forest River - Rockwood Mini Lite - 2502S - 12K miles recorded by F150

That IS a trip of a lifetime!!! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Alanymarce]

It was not an overlanding trip, but we traveled with an 2WD F150 truck and a 28 foot Travel trailer. Not much overlanding, but we did take the truck on some trails in Moab and the San Juan's that I had done previously in our 4Runners. I had pictures on Google but they ended that service, So I am thinking of putting some of them on Flicker. This is some of what we did:

Vehicles:
2018 Ford F150 XLT - Bought May 2018 - 18 miles on it, 29K miles at end of trip
2013 Forest River - Rockwood Mini Lite - 2502S - 12K miles recorded by F150

National Parks:
Grand Teton NP - Wyoming
Grand Canyon NP - Arizona
Zion NP - Utah
Yellowstone NP - Wyoming, Montana, Idaho
Petrified Forest NP - Arizona
Bryce Canyon NP - Utah
Capitol Reef NP - Utah
Guadalupe Mountains NP - Texas
Yosemite NP - California
Arches NP - Utah
Canyonlands NP - Utah
Carlsbad Caverns NP - New Mexico
Wind Cave NP - South Dakota
Rocky Mountain NP - Colorado
Big Bend NP - Texas


National Monuments:
Little Bighorn Battlefield NM - Montana
Cedar Breaks NM - Utah
Dinosaur NM - Utah
Devils Tower NM - Wyoming

Museums:
Unser Racing Museum - Albuquerque NM
John Wesley Powell River History Museum - Green River UT
Western Mining and Railroad Museum - Helper UT
Tusayan Museum - Grand Canyon AZ
Anasazi State Park Museum - Boulder UT
Laws Railroad Museum - Laws CA
Eastern California Museum - Independence CA
Paiute-Shoshone Cultural Center - Bishop CA
Tucumcari Railroad Museum - Tucumcari NM
Tucumcari Historical Museum - Tucumcari NM
Mesalands Dinosaur Museum - Tucumcari NM
The National Oregon/California Trail Center - Montpelier ID
Central Nevada Museum - Tonopah NV
Tonopah Historic Mining Park - Tonopah NV
Escalante Heritage Center - Escalante UT
St George Dinosaur Discovery Site At Johnsons Farm - St George UT
Rosenbruch World Wildlife Museum - St George UT
Mountain Man Museum - Pinedale WY
Buffalo Bill Center of the West - Cody WY - Best Museum
National Cowboy & Western Heritage Museum - Oklahoma City OK

Other:
Red Rock Canyon State Park - CA
Red Canyon Visitor Center - UT
Shoshone Falls Park - ID
Custer State Park - SD
Alamo - TX
Buc-ee's - Worlds Largest Gas Station - New Braunfels TX
Lake Tahoe - CA - NV
Mammoth Lakes - CA
Morimoto Restaurant Las Vegas - NV
Golden Spike National Historical Park - UT
Grizzly & Wolf Discovery Center - MT
Standin' On A Corner - Winslow AZ
Overland Expo West 2019 - Flagstaff AZ
National Scenic Byway 12 - Twice - Once in each direction - UT
Sitting Bull Falls - NM
Josie Sanchez 90th Birthday Party - CA
Ilene Putman 90th Birthday Party - CA
Living Desert State Park - Carlsbad NM
Bearizona Wildlife Park - Williams AZ
Garden of the Gods - Colorado Springs CO
Wall Drug Store - SD
Black Hills - SD
Mount Rushmore - SD
Crazy Horse Memorial - SD
Needles Highway - SD
Bryce Wildlife Adventure - UT
Hubbell Trading Post - Az


States:
California
Nevada
Idaho
Wyoming
Montana
Utah
New Mexico
Texas
Arizona
Oklahoma
South Dakota
Kansas
New Mexico
Nebraska

Not that it matters (overlanding is whatever you think it is) however this looks like overlanding to me : )

 

[Neuvik]

Fuel prices just dictate what rig I take. Living in Kaliforniastan, driving to pretty much any other state I get cheaper gas prices so really my trip locations change. But I kept my f250 7.3L for a reason. I've run it on used motor oil, gear oil, corn oil, frying oils, glycol; whatever is cheap. I try to flush the line every night and keep a few extra fuel filters. If Kaliforniastan wants to double registration fees and add on a punitive 50cent tax to gasoline, and 75cents! to diesel which is all diverted to the general fund to only later hopefully get distributed to road maintenance. Fine by me, enjoy my coal CARB.

I also prefer moderate to aggressive trails so having some pipe dream of an EV vehicle or hybrid that can handle that environment isn't a real answer. When they fail, they fail hard and leave you stranded. The computer nannies and tech just isn't there, and do you want to be the one to beta test it? Maybe jeep can pull it off, I dunno.

 

[Brewbud]

Fuel prices just dictate what rig I take. Living in Kaliforniastan, driving to pretty much any other state I get cheaper gas prices so really my trip locations change. But I kept my f250 7.3L for a reason. I've run it on used motor oil, gear oil, corn oil, frying oils, glycol; whatever is cheap. I try to flush the line every night and keep a few extra fuel filters. If Kaliforniastan wants to double registration fees and add on a punitive 50cent tax to gasoline, and 75cents! to diesel which is all diverted to the general fund to only later hopefully get distributed to road maintenance. Fine by me, enjoy my coal CARB.

I also prefer moderate to aggressive trails so having some pipe dream of an EV vehicle or hybrid that can handle that environment isn't a real answer. When they fail, they fail hard and leave you stranded. The computer nannies and tech just isn't there, and do you want to be the one to beta test it? Maybe jeep can pull it off, I dunno.

Jeep may do it. My wife is interested in the Jeep 4xe plug-in hybrid. Looks interesting. Not a big battery - maybe 25 miles on a charge. But you can select when you use the battery. As a hybrid, or just as full electric. Be kind of cool using battery for the majority of a trail. When the battery is used for normal use it kicks the HP up to 375 Hp.

EV may be a thing for us. We have a Rivian RiT on order. The only problem is we have two Cummins in the driveway and an LJ in the garage. I bought the 2020 Ram because the R1T is delayed. Somethings got to go. I am going to regrettably sell the reliable 2007 Ram and keep the 2020 Ram and the LJ. If my wife buys a car before the R1T is available or it comes and she doesn't like it we will likely let the R1T go. Things could change if we like the way the Rivian performs. I have had the LJ for a long time now LOL

 

[LostWoods]

You don't need a huge battery to go full electric x miles. You can have a hybrid system like in the Camry for example. It does not have huge weight, battery is very small a few kw . It saves a huge amount of fuel in certain conditions, when your vehicle is the least efficient. Hybrid systems like the ones used in toyota (not PHEV ) see the highest fuel economy exactly at low speeds and stop and go driving .. From this point of view, off road and heavy traffic city driving is similar - in both cases you drive slow, stop often, you break and accelerate a lot.. .etc..
I know it works . My car has 120 HP hybrid engine - automatic gearbox, small size, it does 50 mpg in city driving heavy traffic. . My previous car was normal petrol car, also 120hp automatic. In city traffic it had 25 mpg. In highway driving, they are almost the same. And I am not talking about the fuel economy in test conditions,, I had them both for years, both driven summer, winter etc.. and this was the trend I saw. This is why I am very optimistic about hybrid overlanding vehicles, either pickups or big SUV.
Right now with diesel, because of emissions I have to have adblue (DEF in US i think ) with me all the time. In international travel is a problem.


If you go to to Africa, Asia, South America.. You can order it in advance, you can carry some, I hear any Land Rover dealers in Asia and Africa have it, but still is a PITA. In addition to that, on my vehicle the adblue reservoir is completly unprotected, under the driver somewhere on the bottom of the car. If i hit it I am done, even if I have some spare fluid with me, engine goes in to limp mode at 50 % power.. . So I would take a hybrid any day over this. Even if want to buy a petrol pick up or Big SUV, in Europe they do not exist. There is no petrol pick up . All the good off road SUV's are Diesel . Here I am talking about Landcruiser Prado,Mitsubishi Pajero etc..
My hope is Hybrid technology...

That weight is a hybrid setup. The inherent problem with a hybrid truck (as GM found out) is that every pound reduces range, you need more pounds of metal to support the battery, and all that weight is prohibitive in a truck being a truck unless you step up a class. If you're building a truck to be an overlander that's one thing but you can't mass produce a pickup for such limited use - trucks are going to be for truck stuff. The Camry, Highlander, etc. aren't remotely in the same territory as a truck and to my knowledge, they are all de-rated for things like towing because it's such a strain on the electrical system.

The only way electrical will make it in a truck on current tech is if you build a system like most trains have in the US - they're all electric powered by a diesel generator. That would give the best of both worlds assuming the efficiency is there and there's no need for a massive battery, only one large enough to pad usage. Otherwise it's going to just be a niche market for people who use their trucks like a Camry.

 

[leeloo]

That weight is a hybrid setup. The inherent problem with a hybrid truck (as GM found out) is that every pound reduces range, you need more pounds of metal to support the battery, and all that weight is prohibitive in a truck being a truck unless you step up a class. If you're building a truck to be an overlander that's one thing but you can't mass produce a pickup for such limited use - trucks are going to be for truck stuff. The Camry, Highlander, etc. aren't remotely in the same territory as a truck and to my knowledge, they are all de-rated for things like towing because it's such a strain on the electrical system.

The only way electrical will make it in a truck on current tech is if you build a system like most trains have in the US - they're all electric powered by a diesel generator. That would give the best of both worlds assuming the efficiency is there and there's no need for a massive battery, only one large enough to pad usage. Otherwise it's going to just be a niche market for people who use their trucks like a Camry.

As I said, there is still a lot of confusion because many system are called Hybrid, but it comes in many flavors.
You have "mild hybrid" 48V systems where you have as the name suggest a 48V battery that can charge when you brake/go downhill etc ) that does a few things like drive an AC compressor, Colling pump etc .. all are electrical - no belts and also it can assist the engine a bit and manage a start stop system.
The "clasic" hybrid - a large battery 200-300 V system battery between 20-30 kg, 1 or 2 electric motors (one used as a generator second a starter-drive engine) They can go maybe a few miles pure electric in certain conditions, but mainly they recoup a lot of energy lost and they provide significant instant torque and assist in heavy acceleration. This system is present in all hybrid toyotas and Lexus from prius to Lexus LC, and it has plenty of power and torque. I don't see a problem to scale it up to truck level
The problem will be the transmission not the power or the weight of the system ( you need high-low for offroad, good control, you can't just chuck in a CVT like most have).
They have something interesting the LC500h that might work..anyway interesting times ahead.
I know for sure that something similar will be in the next Landcruiser 300 series and the next gen Landcruiser Prado. The LAndcruiser 300 is due in a few months so we will see soon enough.
For the new Prado, the hybrid system will have almost same power and torque as the curent 2.8 diesel at 200 hp and 500NM.

Consider the weight of a modern diesel engine. You have all those emission systems (catalyst, DPF+ adblue etc ) + turbo system. Only the adblue (DEF) system is probably half of the weight the battery and the other parts it will have. So compared with a diesel truck for example, the added weight will not be much.
The only thing I am worried about will be the off road capability, if it will be preserved than is fine. Finally we will have some petrol alternatives in Europe as well, but with good efficiency..

 

[MidOH]

If you can use the hybrid gear to bribe the EPA into letting you build a diesel truck with no EGR, DPF, or DEF, then maybe it's viable. As of now, it's 110% not. And we still don't have green batteries or super capacitors.

Off road capability is hampered by weight. My gas truck weighs 1000# pounds less than my diesel, and shreds it off road. Diesel weight up front, sucks off road. Adding 1000# of hybrid gear is going to be almost as bad.

Someone mentioned trains. Diesel electric trains are for smooth acceleration, no transmission gears to shift through, and flawless traction control. Wheel speed can't slip and increase to anything greater than the frequency setpoint of the generator. They're actually less efficient, because there is loss in converting engine power to electricity, and then back into mechanical power again.

That's why heavy cargo ships still use direct drive piston engines. It's still more efficient than diesel electric. Sure, cruise ships are diesel electric, in a way. But they're actually ALL electric, giant hotels. They usually have four 4meg gens running the show. Efficiency moving, really isn't a goal of cruise ships.

 

[leeloo]

I can't pretend that I am green when I own a pick up. What I do want is the ability to continuing to do what I do without a diesel build with all this emission stuff. Even if they are still reliable , some of them ( F there are no big issues with the 2.4 diesel I have now, it is used on Hilux all over the world ) , it is still more difficult to deal with specially when you do international travel , with the problems that come with diesel ( different quality and norms ) , you need to carry a lot of adblue etc..
So if a hybrid is the only way they will start selling petrol engines for pick-ups and larg SUV in Europe, it will be great to have the option for people like me... and if it solves the issue in US with the increased prices for petrol.. why not ?
If it does the job, is reliable. ..who cares if it is petrol V6, V8, turbo non turbo etc...

 

[Neuvik]

..
So if a hybrid is the only way they will start selling petrol engines for pick-ups and larg SUV in Europe, it will be great to have the option for people like me... and if it solves the issue in US with the increased prices for petrol.. why not ?
If it does the job, is reliable. ..who cares if it is petrol V6, V8, turbo non turbo etc...

Because hybrids havn't been proven to be reliable off road or in adverse conditions...It's an answer to pavement overlanding.

I think the better option is still pointing out and removing the arbitrary taxes and regulations that cause high fuel prices to begin with.

 

[MazeVX]

Hybrids have inherited the worst of both parents.
The poor combustion engine needs to carry the big e-motor and his evil battery and the e-powered part of the drivetrain has to adjust to the combustion engine and needs to push its weight around, neither of which is happy and science sits in the corner silently crying.

Hybrids are only interesting because they are favored by the government.

Every super efficient modern engine depends on reliable fuel quality, whether it is gas or diesel, there's nothing you can do about it, it will get much worse and you won't change a thing.
Imagine loading out your diesel generator in the middle of the Sahara desert to charge your cyber truck and your generator does not run because you bought bad fuel...

Sorry, I'm just done with the idiocracy in this world...

 

[SquishBang]

LOLOLOLOL at all of the PHEV, EV talk here!
As some have noted, the limitations of energy storage and energy consumption for non-aerodynamic, heavy vehicles.
Another thing to watch VERY carefully about PHEV/EV is the cost of charging and registering said vehicles.
Just because electricity is cheap in some areas to home-charge a PHEV/EV, doesn't mean it'll stay that way. Currently, using a Tesla Supercharger costs as much per mile for energy as operating a BMW 3 series, the main Tesla competitor. In Texas, for example, their demand-based pricing scheme is causing the electric bills of those who had electricity to go through the roof during this winter storm they just had.
Don't assume that electricity will remain relatively cheap when a bunch more demand is created.
And many municipalities have already begun to charge higher registration fees for EVs to offset loss of gas tax revenue.
What is really going to happen is the cost of operating an ICE vehicle will go up substantially, and when people finally relent and get an EV/PHEV, they'll still be paying too much, but they'll be conditioned to it.

We just went on a 3000 mile road trip in our gas-guzzling truck. Did about 100 miles off-road. Gas wasn't the most expensive thing, and when the road opened up with no traffic I would let that V8 guzzle gas at 15mpg just so we could knock down the miles quicker at 85-90mph. It'd get 18 easy at speed limits, but that takes too long.

There are people out there with shiny new expensive rigs, no scratches, $800+/month payment and a permanently installed RTT knocking MPGs down by 2-3mpg. They are the ones that will need to make choices.
All of our vehicles are paid off. Inflation, taxes, operating costs are all a nuisance that is easier to deal with when the vehicles are lien-free.

 

[grubworm]

well, the answer to higher fuel costs and higher taxes is simple....

...just make more money!

 

[leeloo]

I don't think anyone reads anything, or reads on a diagonal. Not talking about hybrids you need to plug in to charge. An those systems are not heavier than your average run of the mill modern diesel plant with all the emission systems.

Since the 80-90 's only 3 things transformed off roading/overlanding/ camping. AT tubeless tires that allows you to run low pressures indefinitely for improved traction, led lights and solar. Time to move on, it has been 30 years, there is room for innovation.
Even now I remember endless discussions and whining about the tubeless tires -- not good, what to you do if you have a puncture, you can't fix it on the side of the road, too expensive and so on...

 

[Billiebob]

I don't think anyone reads anything, or reads on a diagonal. Not talking about hybrids you need to plug in to charge. An those systems are not heavier than your average run of the mill modern diesel plant with all the emission systems.

Since the 80-90 's only 3 things transformed off roading/overlanding/ camping. AT tubeless tires that allows you to run low pressures indefinitely for improved traction, led lights and solar. Time to move on, it has been 30 years, there is room for innovation.
Even now I remember endless discussions and whining about the tubeless tires -- not good, what to you do if you have a puncture, you can't fix it on the side of the road, too expensive and so on...

yep, 100 years ago the automobile was the urban solution to ridding cities of horse manure. Unfortunately when we had the choice of gas or electric, Whr=en the two choices were kind of equal in 1920, Henty Ford and Standard Oil fought like the Mafia to win the battle. In the 1910s thru 1920s electricity stood an equal chance. Heck UPS had fleets of electric trucks. Mass transit invented before the automoble was pure electric. Even in the 1960s city busses were mostly electric. But corporations would kill all that practicality. Our greed and willingness to be sheep put us here today. Electric busses, trolley busses, the silent busses with acceleration of a Corvette fell to the greed of big oil. And hence we are here today. Still listening to the spin from big oil.....

A trolley bus and blue skies, eat that LA and New Yotk.

 

[ruralpunk]

I just got a 3.6L wrangler I looked real hard about the 4xe and the diesel, but I couldn't justify spending the money when I knew the 3.6L was so reliable. The diesel has too many sensors that can fail, and hasn't been around long enough to see how it holds up, and as much as I'm down to try a hybrid I'm not going to blindly throw all my cash at a manufacturers first attempt at an electric motor.

 

[Old Tanker]

Hybrids have inherited the worst of both parents.
The poor combustion engine needs to carry the big e-motor and his evil battery and the e-powered part of the drivetrain has to adjust to the combustion engine and needs to push its weight around, neither of which is happy and science sits in the corner silently crying.

Hybrids are only interesting because they are favored by the government.

Every super efficient modern engine depends on reliable fuel quality, whether it is gas or diesel, there's nothing you can do about it, it will get much worse and you won't change a thing.
Imagine loading out your diesel generator in the middle of the Sahara desert to charge your cyber truck and your generator does not run because you bought bad fuel...

Sorry, I'm just done with the idiocracy in this world...

Hybrids do well with city driving - they are able to recapture energy otherwise lost to the brakes. Everything else is a compromise to that end. I can't see it working well for overlanding.

 

[Neuvik]

I don't think anyone reads anything, or reads on a diagonal. Not talking about hybrids you need to plug in to charge. An those systems are not heavier than your average run of the mill modern diesel plant with all the emission systems.

Since the 80-90 's only 3 things transformed off roading/overlanding/ camping. AT tubeless tires that allows you to run low pressures indefinitely for improved traction, led lights and solar. Time to move on, it has been 30 years, there is room for innovation.
Even now I remember endless discussions and whining about the tubeless tires -- not good, what to you do if you have a puncture, you can't fix it on the side of the road, too expensive and so on...

I'm going to go on a limb and guess you don't offroad too much. In 30 years a lot of innovation has occurred, my shocks isnt just some cruddy gas contained in a simple piston... what about metallurgy of chromoly axles, or the improvements in diff lockers?

Your innovate "because I say so," approach isn't going to produce the results you think they will. Ask yourself, why don't I own one of these magical machines right now? After all, they save money on fuel right?

A lot has to do with energy density. More has to do with this all being uncharted water so trial and error needs to happen.

So if you want to be the ev/hybrid beta test that's your descision. Forcing everyone else to beta test vehicles and put their families at risk by artificially inflating fuel prices and arbitraily creating industry road blocks and legislation is pretty....socialist.

Right now the majority of hybrids don't have live axles so no ability to put in nifty things like diff lockers for serious offroading. They are dependent on AWD and forms of braking and achieve low range through further breaking and forcing CVTs to remain in their low position. All this is inefficient. Plus depending on the computer system the traction control might keep your vehicle stuck in the sand/snow/mud. That happens a lot to AWD vehicles.

Further their propulsion systems haven't been subjected to the abuse of offroad travel. Direct electric wheel/hub assemblies arnt going to withstand the dust, mud, and shockloads applied to them for a long time. Not to mention the extra cooling they will require.

Just a reminder, the Jeep Rubicon 4XE will have an estimated 400 miles range, same as my 6.4L hemi Power Wagon. It will keep its axles, lockers and disconnecting swaybar plus suspension. The battery system though has to have extra cooling. I'm curious to see how it does.

Jeep has pretty good R&D reputation, but guess what...I'm not going to let my family be the beta test. It has to be proven reliable first, and that means existing for some years to work out all the bugs before I put my hard earned coin forth.