General Observations about the influx of people to the outdoor world

[smritte]

Sure, home bodies might virtue signal about saving the forests or whatever. But they'll never actually lift a finger to help.

OMG yes

(Skill Gates: Gate with ruts, moguls, step up, or rocks underneath. So that properly sized and capable trucks can make it through, but trail ruining open diff 2wd's and motorhomes can't. No idea what these type of gates are called in your area.)

We call those Gate Keepers. You spend an entire weekend using multiple winches on huge boulders to create these. The next month their all moved. Now, someone gets hurt because they didn't have the skill level, trash everywhere and social media is trying to lobby new rules and or get the trail shut down.
This was my life working on Black Diamond trails for several decades.

Unfortunately, it's well past time for SXS and ATV bans. Plated motorcycle and trucks only on certain trails. Motorcycle, mountain bikes, and horses only, on others. SXS users are the biggest douches out there right now.

I would have a hard time not agreeing with you. A few years ago it was a toss up between them and the 40" tired street JK's.

 

[TacoMacs]

The "Covid 19" scam that everyone believed in due to the fear mongering of our fake news drove people out to the parks. Unfortunately those were the easily mind controlled folks that didn't think for themselves. Didn't think to be courteous to our environment. Didn't think to bring trash bags. Didn't think to not litter. Didn't think to tread lightly. I could go on and on... But I think everyone gets the picture.

 

[Five Points Overland]

Just wait it out guys, another year or so and there are going to be great deals on ‘barely used’ Overland rigs all decked out and ready to go. Me personally am new to this as well as first time RV ownership but have been camping my whole life so I know the drill (leave no trace). Yes it sucks that everywhere is packed and people are just idiots out there but hey who knows, maybe next year I’ll find a killer deal on a pontoon boat too

 

[Downs]

(Skill Gates: Gate with ruts, moguls, step up, or rocks underneath. So that properly sized and capable trucks can make it through, but trail ruining open diff 2wd's and motorhomes can't. No idea what these type of gates are called in your area.)

I've always heard them called gatekeeper obstacles. If your vehicle can make it over then it can complete the rest of the trail.

 

[Downs]

The "Covid 19" scam that everyone believed in due to the fear mongering of our fake news drove people out to the parks. Unfortunately those were the easily mind controlled folks that didn't think for themselves. Didn't think to be courteous to our environment. Didn't think to bring trash bags. Didn't think to not litter. Didn't think to tread lightly. I could go on and on... But I think everyone gets the picture.

Loosen up that tin foil hat a bit.

 

[Old Tanker]

Rather than closing trails, perhaps a semi-wilderness designation for selected trails limiting access to those who pass a test in basic recovery, first aid, navigation, and treading lightly. Something along the lines of a Ham radio license.

 

[TacoMacs]

Loosen up that tin foil hat a bit.

Just speaking the truth. I hope you enjoy your journey for truth. God bless.

 

[Padams7]

It starts with you.

I know that’s a sad thing to say, because it starts with me too.

I have a younger sister in law, she’s a moron to put it lightly. My wife and I are actually old enough to be her parents, but she took her husbands lifted F150 on yee yee tires “mudding” - keep in mind, this thing is on like 24” Wheels and 35” tires. She has gone out there tearing up trails, getting stuck, going off trail.

She knows good and damn well not to call me, but she has friends in their mid 20’s that think tearing up trails, slinging mud, making ruts with their 40” tires in puddles, drinking beers, littering trails, shooting guns, fighting is the “country life”. One of their friends actually got run over out there one night, and is now disabled.

But this generation two decades younger than me doesn’t see what they are messing up. They don’t see it the way we do.

And really, I didn’t see it that way when I was younger, having VW trail buggies and 4 wheelers, tearing thru pine forests.

But now, I have two boys, 12 and 14, and I’m teaching them. We stay on the trails, we pick up trash. The principles in Tread Lightly are what need to be taught to our kids, because soon they’ll be the ones in their 20’s, out there. The only way to change it is to teach it.

Unfortunately my sister in law is the problem. I am hoping the thousands she just has to repair makes her think twice a out going out there and being a moron again. But I ripped her a new one.

Also, I bought a few Overland Bound Challenge Coins - so when I’m out there, if I am able to educate, talk to others, and get a sense they understand I have offered up a coin and invited them here. It’s always only been a single vehicle with one or two people. I don’t approach the hooligans much. No sense putting myself in a situation I have to defend myself in.

Happy trails all!

 

[BensonSTW]

Only people that can enjoy the outdoors care about it. Sure, home bodies might virtue signal about saving the forests or whatever. But they'll never actually lift a finger to help.

The influx of new users brings leverage to improve trail access and awareness. A few trashed spots is a small price to pay (usually). That also gives you time to close the trail for maintenance, repairs, cleanup, and re-routing. If the trail is over used, or being spun up by newbs, add skill level gates to keep the weaklings out. The political power, and demand, of popular spots, out weighs the inconvenience of a few bad apples.

(Skill Gates: Gate with ruts, moguls, step up, or rocks underneath. So that properly sized and capable trucks can make it through, but trail ruining open diff 2wd's and motorhomes can't. No idea what these type of gates are called in your area.)

Unfortunately, it's well past time for SXS and ATV bans. Plated motorcycle and trucks only on certain trails. Motorcycle, mountain bikes, and horses only, on others. SXS users are the biggest douches out there right now. Not woodsy frat parities, which still suck, with all of their litter and extra fire rings. Those happen from time to time, but aren't normal. The SXS crowd is the worst bunch that I've seen. Roaring around blind corners at full throttle. Zipping through quiet country towns with open exhaust at 3 AM. Extra points for blinding illegal lights, lighted whips, beer, and loud stereos.

It's like every 80's kid that ruined boating with their darn jetski's, grew up and bought a SXS.

I just read your condemnation and demand for a ban on one of my favorite forms of outdoor recreation. You have no clue how I use my side by side yet demand I should be prohibited from using it. I took this as a personal attach on my way of life. I wrote a huge response full of hate and firing back. Then I thought about it before I posted and deleted everything. What I offer is this instead... you send me a message and we will set up a weeks time. I’m preferring it be after my sheep hunt but I will sacrifice that time to prove to you how wrong you are. Anyway, you come to nevada. We will overland for a week from my side by side. And if you go home without saying you were completely wrong, then I will apologize for calling you out. You are condemning a whole tree, who at this point has numbers that will easily eclipse the overlanding community, based on a few pieces of bad fruit.

So in the spirit of our OB community I’ll throw this out as a bridge from one community to another. We all reside under the hat of off-road recreation. Rock crawlers, side by sides, overlander, hunters, fishermen, this is the time we need to embrace each other and our hobbies.

Right now all of us off-road enthusiasts are under attack from wilderness area activists and anti hunters and so many others that want to take away public lands. And they all have one common goal. We seem to not care as long as it isn’t our specific hobby under attack. I’d love to see dirt nation atv groups supporting Rocky Mountain elk foundation and trout unlimited sponsor Easter jeep safari.

If we don’t join forces. Educate instead of tear down. Reach a common ground and encourage responsible use of our public lands, we are going to lose them 100%. If we could all come together we would outnumber the fun haters and control our own destiny as far as public land useage is concerned. We may even be able to get more of it open up to our use. No matter how many of us there are we need to encourage more and educate them on the responsible ways of doing things. Share the responsibility and the blame.

Sorry, rant over. I’ll go back to my popcorn and keep quiet now.

 

[Red_Leaf_Overland]

I just read your condemnation and demand for a ban on one of my favorite forms of outdoor recreation. You have no clue how I use my side by side yet demand I should be prohibited from using it. I took this as a personal attach on my way of life. I wrote a huge response full of hate and firing back. Then I thought about it before I posted and deleted everything. What I offer is this instead... you send me a message and we will set up a weeks time. I’m preferring it be after my sheep hunt but I will sacrifice that time to prove to you how wrong you are. Anyway, you come to nevada. We will overland for a week from my side by side. And if you go home without saying you were completely wrong, then I will apologize for calling you out. You are condemning a whole tree, who at this point has numbers that will easily eclipse the overlanding community, based on a few pieces of bad fruit.

I have to admit that before reading this, I agreed 100% with the " side by sides are doichebags" however after reading this I 100% agree that YES we do all need to stick together and I fall into one of the more hated categories myself with my rock crawler.
Education is really what needs to happen and unfortunately there are a lot of bad apples out there. It's never a group as a whole, but the ones who do things wrong are also the ones who post about it on social media and feed the fire. That kind of attention to any group leads to issues.

Ps. Sorry not calling you a douchbag lol.

 

[BensonSTW]

I have to admit that before reading this, I agreed 100% with the " side by sides are doichebags" however after reading this I 100% agree that YES we do all need to stick together and I fall into one of the more hated categories myself with my rock crawler.
Education is really what needs to happen and unfortunately there are a lot of bad apples out there. It's never a group as a whole, but the ones who do things wrong are also the ones who post about it on social media and feed the fire. That kind of attention to any group leads to issues.

Ps. Sorry not calling you a douchbag lol.

I am not taking offense. When I bought mine it was supposed to be the fastest most powerful side by side out there. I am a motor head. When you go from 26 hp to 85 what’s not to love. Plus it had way more storage space. We set up on an abandoned mine road and had drag races. I ran mine 4 times that day. It’s the only time I have ever raced it. It’s never been to the dunes. It’s seen top speed a handful of times. It has never made its own road except on my property. 99% of its life is 35 miles an hour or less. It takes me fishing and camping and hunting. Short day trips are a blast. I carry a roll of 55 gallon trash bags and often come home with more trash than I left my house with.

I love rock crawlers. I have had my hands in on a few builds and my cj7 is nothing short of a crawler. I just don’t like to participate because I hate working on my stuff. I mechanic full time and don’t want to do it anymore than I have to. And I’d probably lay down and ball my eyes out if I flopped my 30,000 dollar build on its side and tore it up. But the places they are capable of going is amazing.

It’s never the machine that I’m not impressed with and it’s rarely more than 1 or 2 drivers that ruin it for everyone. I am all for the fines and penalties imposed for tearing stuff up. I just wish that money would go into a fund to put another officer or ten out there on the trail to police the douche bags. Or hold training classes at popular locations. We need more advocacy for doing things the right way.

 

[loper]

Have to differ with you on this.

"Unfortunately, it's well past time for SXS and ATV bans. Plated motorcycle and trucks only on certain trails. Motorcycle, mountain bikes, and horses only, on others. SXS users are the biggest douches out there right now. Not woodsy frat parities, which still suck, with all of their litter and extra fire rings. Those happen from time to time, but aren't normal. The SXS crowd is the worst bunch that I've seen. Roaring around blind corners at full throttle. Zipping through quiet country towns with open exhaust at 3 AM. Extra points for blinding illegal lights, lighted whips, beer, and loud stereos."

We have a lot of fun running around on our SXS. Pick up a lot of trash when we're out, and if we see anybody that looks like they are in trouble, we stop and offer help. Yeah, we have "illegal lights" (which I kill if I'm around anyone), but fresh out of open exhaust, lighted whips, beer, and loud stereos. I don't like obnoxious behavior, so I try really hard to act decent. I know that some people don't play by those rules, but that ain't me.

Go to the races and you'll see loudmouth idiots among the crowd. Drive on the highway and you'll encounter idiot drivers. Hell, go to a fast food place and there will be somebody there to annoy you. I've encountered plenty of noisy 2 stroke "plated motorcycles" and noisy or poorly operated trucks out on trails.

The problem is not the class of vehicle, but the lack of class in the operator.

 

[BensonSTW]

Have to differ with you on this.

"Unfortunately, it's well past time for SXS and ATV bans. Plated motorcycle and trucks only on certain trails. Motorcycle, mountain bikes, and horses only, on others. SXS users are the biggest douches out there right now. Not woodsy frat parities, which still suck, with all of their litter and extra fire rings. Those happen from time to time, but aren't normal. The SXS crowd is the worst bunch that I've seen. Roaring around blind corners at full throttle. Zipping through quiet country towns with open exhaust at 3 AM. Extra points for blinding illegal lights, lighted whips, beer, and loud stereos."

We have a lot of fun running around on our SXS. Pick up a lot of trash when we're out, and if we see anybody that looks like they are in trouble, we stop and offer help. Yeah, we have "illegal lights" (which I kill if I'm around anyone), but fresh out of open exhaust, lighted whips, beer, and loud stereos. I don't like obnoxious behavior, so I try really hard to act decent. I know that some people don't play by those rules, but that ain't me.

Go to the races and you'll see loudmouth idiots among the crowd. Drive on the highway and you'll encounter idiot drivers. Hell, go to a fast food place and there will be somebody there to annoy you. I've encountered plenty of noisy 2 stroke "plated motorcycles" and noisy or poorly operated trucks out on trails.

The problem is not the class of vehicle, but the lack of class in the operator.

Another example of wanting to like a post more than once. I also have the illegal light bar. I do have the really loud stereo but the wife controls the volume and it only gets turned up at appropriate times. I like music, everything I own has the ability to be obnoxious loud. It happens when you like to hear all ranges of sound from deep bass to crisp treble. Again it’s used responsibly.

But I will be honest. In my younger days in a Ford bronco, I was the douchebag. Mud bogging in the spring. Hauling ass everywhere I went. Complete with stereo that could be heard and felt for blocks. And chances were I probably was drinking a beer or 30. Everyone has to grow up at some point. But we need to remember what it was like to be young with no cares in the world. I’m willing to bet there were a lot like more me than will admit it. Someone got through to me. Now I try to get through to all who will listen and some that never will.

 

[Anak]

It's funny that Side-by-Sides should come up at this moment. The Bride and I just came back from a walk to go get an ice cream and encountered a SxS crossing the a main road, on a residential street. Radio was blaring. Tandem lighted whips in the back. Certainly not registered for the streets.

I commented to The Bride that those folks are such a PITA on the trails. All think they are driving a trophy truck. No regard for the rest of the world. But at least someone like Matt on "Matt's Off Road Recovery" gets to make good money rescuing them when they get a taste of natural consequences.

However, it is a valid point that not all are like that.

But the ones who are like that are the ones who makes the deepest impression. They are the "Jeff the cyclist" of the off-road world.

How do you fix it?

Can you fix stupid?

Whoever thinks they can fix that, I wish them the best of luck.

I think the most the rest of us can do is set a good example and advocate for our own cause.

 

[Jim SoG]

If we don’t join forces. Educate instead of tear down. Reach a common ground and encourage responsible use of our public lands, we are going to lose them 100%. If we could all come together we would outnumber the fun haters and control our own destiny as far as public land useage is concerned. We may even be able to get more of it open up to our use. No matter how many of us there are we need to encourage more and educate them on the responsible ways of doing things. Share the responsibility and the blame.

Man if that aint the truth, nothing is!! It applies to so much in our society as well.....

 

[Nomad164]

Just wait it out guys, another year or so and there are going to be great deals on ‘barely used’ Overland rigs all decked out and ready to go. Me personally am new to this as well as first time RV ownership but have been camping my whole life so I know the drill (leave no trace). Yes it sucks that everywhere is packed and people are just idiots out there but hey who knows, maybe next year I’ll find a killer deal on a pontoon boat too

We have the same issue here in Australia - the price of 2nd hand 4WDs has gone through the roof, caravan and campertrailers have gone through the roof, purchasing a new 4WD has wait lists of 6 + months, all the popular (easy to get to) campsites / grounds are are full and this is all due to Covid

Idiot behaviour and incidents involving inexperienced 4WDvers / campers has gone through the roof

Sadly with our borders closed for international travels it isn't going to get any better

However, on the upside, once international borders open for travel all the bogans (our version of a redneck) and others will head back overseas so in a couple of years there will be a whole lot of cheap 4WDs, caravan, campertrailers and camping equipment on the market and the prices will be really cheap so I am hanging for the borders to open and international travel to restart so I can get some cheap gear

On the plus side, while all the popular spots are full or the remote locations are near empty because people are scared to go remote

Karl

 

[smritte]

I had this same mind set, 30 years ago. Too bad all my work still got me stereotyped in with the bad people.

My whole life, I've been in some kind of outdoor club. No matter what it is, everyone, myself included, did our part. We went out of our way to educate and train. I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours building trails, maintaining trails, organizing different events. What have I seen in all of this? The few people who actually care, do the work. The ones who care, become irritated buy those few jack ass's that tear everything up and they give up. Some leave the hobby completely. Now you have less who care. Very few people will acknowledge those who go out of their way to keep things going. We tend to irritate the careless.

Try spending weeks building something just to find out, a group of people went out and undid what your group spent all of their free time building. Now something happens. Vehicle damage, someone's hurt and the forest service/BLM....gets sued. Guess what the media reports on? Them. Not us. Them. Now there are people trying to get that area closed down because it's too dangerous. Having people slam you in social media because your making it too hard or you had to shut their favorite trail down for a day because you had to fix an area that was dangerous. Trails have a designation. If its designated as a black diamond, you MUST keep it that way otherwise it gets shut down. Too bad you inconvenienced someone because you did what your suppose to.

I'm sorry, but, you cant change people. Our mindset is not the majority. We really wish it was. Try watching two guys on motor cycles completely trash a pristine meadow and argue with the ranger who caught them. Its my right, I pay taxes for your salary.... You want a realistic viewpoint? Go ride with law enforcement. Not once, do it over several years. For me it was forest service and BLM.

This is something that I take seriously. Education is fine, doing our part is a must. You cant get mad when you see someone group you in with "them". I'm sorry but if you engage in any hobby, you will be stereotyped. Ever have someone give you crap just because you drive a 4wd? Go to a planning session for a new trail and have people protest it? Have those protesters damage your vehicle in the parking lot because its a 4wd? No you haven't.

As I said in the beginning of this post, "I had this mindset 30 years ago" I did and I still do. The only difference is, I realized that most of my work was futile and that I was only going to make a small difference if any at all. If you have spent any real time volunteering and helping build your hobby, you know what I'm saying.
I haven't given up but I no longer care about being stereotyped or having someone disagree with me on a forum. Don't get upset when the people your trying to educate get pissed because they don't want to be told what to do.

 

[grubworm]

Some great posts on here. I feel the same frustration that everybody on here feels and it does seem that trying to educate people to do the right thing and to respect our public lands is an uphill battle. I don't want to see them closed, either. As several pointed out on here, you "can't fix stupid" nor can you force people to follow rules or conduct themselves in a proper manner. I quit getting upset and taking it personally and just try to be a good example and leave it at that. We can't change people, but we can conduct ourselves properly and hope others follow.
I spent many years offshore out on drill rigs. Rough tough macho men that cursed, took the Lord's name in vain, like to drink and fight and didn't want to hear anything from anybody. I supervised ROV crews out there and one of my crew members and myself would go to the galley to eat and we'd bow our heads and give thanks. I noticed a few odd looks at first and then after a day or so, I noticed some of the rig hands bowing their heads and giving thanks before eating. Over time, I noticed more people out there doing the same. I wasn't creating a "movement", nor was I being holier than thou...I was merely showing respect and thanks and apparently others felt the same and wanted to join in. I think there are a good number of folk out there who aren't doing the right thing, but would do the right thing once they see someone else do it. Kind of like opening a door for somebody and then later they start opening the door for people behind them. People are called sheep for good reason...they are collectively followers. So, for sheep to do good, they first need to see something good to follow...
Picking up other people's trash at a campsite might be a futile act in itself, but you never know who is watching and what kind of seed you planted in their head. I can't control others...all I can do is be the best me that I can and hopefully my actions will inspire others.

Granted...there are those folk that only respond to guilt, shame, or a large stick up along the side of their head, but that's for another thread....

 

[BensonSTW]

So I would like to offer my sincerest apologies and admit that I was wrong. Apparently I should never defend anyone or any group ever again, and just get thicker skin and realize I’m not the one being talked about. And I will explain my sudden turn around.

This afternoon, I was leaving to go to work. For back ground anything beyond my house is dirt road and we get atv/utv traffic by my house daily. Today when I got to the end of my road a four wheeler came bombing around the corner and almost head on ran into my Tahoe. Apparently my neighbor saw this happen and reported it. Meanwhile guy gets off his four wheeler in my driveway and falls down trying to get another beer. The wife is watching him and he pounds like 3 more beers, still in my drive throwing the can in my yard, in the time it takes for the sheriffs to show. According to the wife, the deputies told her this guy has multiple dui’s and no drivers license. Atleast this dumb ass was caught and will have to pay. All I could think when the wife text me was - I just defended guys like this. Again my apologies if I ruffled feathers.

And for those who want to throw out an I told you so - I will give you evidence to to back it up.


The only thing I can add is asked for more policing and this guy was caught. And better yet him and his 4wheeler are going to jail.

 

[Anak]

Incredible!

That is the way it should go.

And I really don't think you need to eat crow over this. If anything, I appreciate your willingness to see both sides of this particular picture.

In any given group there are going to be some folks who make the group look bad, I think the SxS crowd has a disproportinate number of those folks, but I have no doubt there are good folks in that crowd too. You are probably one of them. The challenge is that you can't distinguish which are which until you find out the hard way.

Oh, and that is an awesome playground for a back yard. You have a good reason for owning such toys.