Forum for Land Use Issues

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slomatt

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I looked but didn't see a forum on Overland Bound dedicated to land use issues such as trail closures and access rights. Assuming there isn't such a forum already, I think it would be a good idea to start one up.

As a community of overlanders it is important that we all work to make sure our trails stay open. This starts with people being aware of closures and the status of trail work. Several of my favorite trails in the Sierras were closed by the "42 trails lawsuit", and I'd be happy to post periodic updates on the progress of reopening those routes.

- Matt
 
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The Raven

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The issue that I could see is that being several thousand members now the reality is we are probably not all on the same page regarding issues. Some trails that some OB members would enjoy trying to drive up with thier BFG KO2s I would more enjoy tackling with my Merrels and Lekis.
 

slomatt

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Given that this site is dedicated to vehicle dependent camping I would assume that most people are on-board with keeping trails open. This is a common topic on similar websites, and I think it is important for people to be aware of trail closures and the status of various projects.

Ideally the new forum would focus on three subjects:

- Specific trails or routes that have been closed. Each would have a dedicated thread that is kept up to date with the status of the trail. For example, I'm on multiple mailing lists from the Eldorado National forest and would be happy to post updates on trails such as Deer Valley and Pardoes, both of which were closed and are scheduled to be reopened (partially due to feedback from the offroading community).

- State and national level laws that effect access. For example, California just passed legislation that drastically effects OHV funding.

- Discussion of various groups that support responsible access, such as the Blue Ribbon Coalition and Cal4Wheel. These groups need donations to keep up their fight against trail closures.


Over the last several decades thousands of miles of dirt trails have been closed to vehicular travel, and the trend is ongoing. As users of these trails we need to make our voice heard and stand up for responsible vehicular access. Something as simple as sending an email can be helpful, but the first step is for people to be aware of trail closures and to know who to contact.

- Matt
 
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MA_Trooper

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Given that this site is dedicated to vehicle dependent camping I would assume that most people are on-board with keeping trails open. This is a common topic on similar websites, and I think it is important for people to be aware of trail closures and the status of various projects.

Ideally the new forum would focus on three subjects:

- Specific trails or routes that have been closed. Each would have a dedicated thread that is kept up to date with the status of the trail. For example, I'm on multiple mailing lists from the Eldorado National forest and would be happy to post updates on trails such as Deer Valley and Pardoes, both of which were closed and are scheduled to be reopened (partially due to feedback from the offroading community).

- State and national level laws that effect access. For example, California just passed legislation that drastically effects OHV funding.

- Discussion of various groups that support responsible access, such as the Blue Ribbon Coalition and Cal4Wheel. These groups need donations to keep up their fight against trail closures.


Over the last several decades thousands of miles of dirt trails have been closed to vehicular travel, and the trend is ongoing. As users of these trails we need to make our voice heard and stand up for responsible vehicular access. Something as simple as sending an email can be helpful, but the first step is for people to be aware of trail closures and to know who to contact.

- Matt
@slomatt I want to make sure I am understanding what your request is here. Are you trying to start a conversation about general land use issues here in this thread or are you asking for a dedicated forum where members can/would start threads regarding specific trail closures and land use issues for their area? It sounds like the latter, to me, but I want to make sure I am comprehending what you are talking about.
 

slomatt

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@slomatt I want to make sure I am understanding what your request is here. Are you trying to start a conversation about general land use issues here in this thread or are you asking for a dedicated forum where members can/would start threads regarding specific trail closures and land use issues for their area? It sounds like the latter, to me, but I want to make sure I am comprehending what you are talking about.
Hi Chris,

You are correct, I'm suggesting a dedicated forum where members can discuss trail closures and land use issues that pertain to overlanding.

- Matt
 
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The Raven

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Look at North Maine Wood Inc. as an example of overlanding issues. There are many commercial groups now trying to capitalize on the region and recently there have been a few asshats who have gone up there and raised hell etc. Restrictions are in place and now commercial groups or any group are banned. They are concideringa rule to allow groups as long as they have a registered Maine guide with them. I am a guide and it's no easy thing to get. Honestly I doubt few will get it given the requirements.

Overall I am actually pleased seeing the restrictions as the acts that brought them about were pretty serious. As an overlander I am not opposed to trail closures.
 
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MOAK

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To be clear the forum would focus on land use issues specific to overlanding, not global land use issues that are irrelevant to this website.
Ahhh,, Bears Ears is in the southeast corner of Utah, not in a foreign country. Are you suggesting that global land use issues do not affect us? Speaking of Bears Ears. :)
 

MOAK

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I would say that this forum has been started and I think the issue is "trail closures" and how to keep what access is left, open for our children and grandchildren. In my case, great grandchildren in another 10 years or so.

Public perception, in my humble opinion, is 75% of our battle. A few bad apples that exist in every demographic will give the anti- (fill in the blank) groups ammunition to have their way. In our case, overlander two-trackers, for lack of a better term, get it coming from all directions. Unfortunately we get lumped in with Billy-Bob and his skyjacked, black smoking, sitting of 45s, way overbuilt vehicle. When John Q Public thinks of a 4wd off road vehicle that image is etched into his mind. We as overland two-trackers are a far cry from that over built vehicle and John Q Public isn't even aware of our existence. They think of that way over built vehicle and associate it with 4 wheeling, and in turn associate it as being in the back country. They naturally come to the conclusion that, yes, that land needs to be protected and those trails need to be closed. That is just one piece of the puzzle.

In the backcountry we have all seen 3 or 4 trails leading to the same destination carving up the sides of hills. You cannot help but think that some one, years ago, decided he was going to make his own new trail with his overbuilt rig. He did, and so did 10s of thousands of others. Still today, there are people that believe to their core that they have the right to do that. Fortunately, on public lands, there are some hefty fines and penalties in an attempt to prevent making your own personal road.

Now for a really touchy subject. Imagine, if you will, that you are a member of the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance and you and your wife are back packing in the Grand Staircase. It's been a long day and you find yourself hiking on a two track. Three overland vehicles come your way, slowly, efficiently. The the lead driver pulls to a gentle stop, window down, and says hello, how are you, do you need anything? Do you have plenty of water? We have extra. Everything is fine, you say. Pleasantries are exchanged as everyone remarks on the beauty of the region. and perhaps even exchange e-mail addresses. A very pleasant interaction. Why? Perception created by first impression. The next day you awake, hike a bit, and find yourself on another two track at the end of the day. Somewhere off in the distance you can hear a gentle rumbling. It's confusing, you can't quite put your finger on whats making the noise. Almost immediately you see a long, very long cloud of dust coming at you. The driver and passenger smile and wave as they rumble by. Then, it is one vehicle after another. They all drive by, smile and wave. You lose count after the 9th 0r 10th vehicle. They just keep coming. It had to have been at least 15 vehicles, maybe as many as 25. Once they all pass, not only are you recovering from a subtle form of shock, you realize you and your wife are completely covered in dust. The next Monday at work, you go to SUWA's website and donate another 100 bucks.

My question is, should any of us be going out in large groups on public lands? I know, I know, I've opened up a can of worms here, but I believe that it should be a topic of discussion on this forum. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the sense of community that we have as overlanders. In Moab last April a fellow member, pre-500, stopped by at the gas station and we chatted for a bit, took some photos and went on our separate ways. Way cool. Two years ago a fellow member allowed me to park our trailer on his property so we could go and visit our daughter in Houston. Way cool, and I have the abilty to do that for or help out any member in my amatuer shop, as they visit Pennsylvania. But, back to the discussion at hand. What perception are we inadvertently creating? Is it important to scrutinize our overlanding practices? "Leave No Trace" is obviously a practice we must all adhere to, but is it enough? Do I have my head completely immersed in my rear? Be Good, Do Good,
Don..
 
T

The Raven

Guest
I've never been a fan of the large groups or the commercial outfits who go out and run these "overland expeditions" on public lands. As a backpacker and independant overland explorer I would be the person who would be very put off by a large group hammering it up pristine areas. When I go out in the wilderness I go to get away from noise, engines and people. I can tolerate a few explorers...but a wagon train of overlanders is too much. In Maine right now this is what's happening and I'm on the side of the opposition as it's not right and even illegal what these paid groups are doing.

I would say that this forum has been started and I think the issue is "trail closures" and how to keep what access is left, open for our children and grandchildren. In my case, great grandchildren in another 10 years or so.

Public perception, in my humble opinion, is 75% of our battle. A few bad apples that exist in every demographic will give the anti- (fill in the blank) groups ammunition to have their way. In our case, overlander two-trackers, for lack of a better term, get it coming from all directions. Unfortunately we get lumped in with Billy-Bob and his skyjacked, black smoking, sitting of 45s, way overbuilt vehicle. When John Q Public thinks of a 4wd off road vehicle that image is etched into his mind. We as overland two-trackers are a far cry from that over built vehicle and John Q Public isn't even aware of our existence. They think of that way over built vehicle and associate it with 4 wheeling, and in turn associate it as being in the back country. They naturally come to the conclusion that, yes, that land needs to be protected and those trails need to be closed. That is just one piece of the puzzle.

In the backcountry we have all seen 3 or 4 trails leading to the same destination carving up the sides of hills. You cannot help but think that some one, years ago, decided he was going to make his own new trail with his overbuilt rig. He did, and so did 10s of thousands of others. Still today, there are people that believe to their core that they have the right to do that. Fortunately, on public lands, there are some hefty fines and penalties in an attempt to prevent making your own personal road.

Now for a really touchy subject. Imagine, if you will, that you are a member of the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance and you and your wife are back packing in the Grand Staircase. It's been a long day and you find yourself hiking on a two track. Three overland vehicles come your way, slowly, efficiently. The the lead driver pulls to a gentle stop, window down, and says hello, how are you, do you need anything? Do you have plenty of water? We have extra. Everything is fine, you say. Pleasantries are exchanged as everyone remarks on the beauty of the region. and perhaps even exchange e-mail addresses. A very pleasant interaction. Why? Perception created by first impression. The next day you awake, hike a bit, and find yourself on another two track at the end of the day. Somewhere off in the distance you can hear a gentle rumbling. It's confusing, you can't quite put your finger on whats making the noise. Almost immediately you see a long, very long cloud of dust coming at you. The driver and passenger smile and wave as they rumble by. Then, it is one vehicle after another. They all drive by, smile and wave. You lose count after the 9th 0r 10th vehicle. They just keep coming. It had to have been at least 15 vehicles, maybe as many as 25. Once they all pass, not only are you recovering from a subtle form of shock, you realize you and your wife are completely covered in dust. The next Monday at work, you go to SUWA's website and donate another 100 bucks.

My question is, should any of us be going out in large groups on public lands? I know, I know, I've opened up a can of worms here, but I believe that it should be a topic of discussion on this forum. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the sense of community that we have as overlanders. In Moab last April a fellow member, pre-500, stopped by at the gas station and we chatted for a bit, took some photos and went on our separate ways. Way cool. Two years ago a fellow member allowed me to park our trailer on his property so we could go and visit our daughter in Houston. Way cool, and I have the abilty to do that for or help out any member in my amatuer shop, as they visit Pennsylvania. But, back to the discussion at hand. What perception are we inadvertently creating? Is it important to scrutinize our overlanding practices? "Leave No Trace" is obviously a practice we must all adhere to, but is it enough? Do I have my head completely immersed in my rear? Be Good, Do Good,
Don..
 
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MOAK

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Hmmm, I had no idea what was going on up in the north country. We have always wanted to go up there after the first frost, set up a basecamp and back pack a couple of one nighters in various directions. Are you saying that we must join up with a pay for play group to get us into the back country? If so, we'll just keep driving through Maine on our way up to the Gaspe'.
As a young man I always wanted to go and drive the Rubicon Trail. No longer, it is way too crowded, way too rowdy. Way too over the top everything. Canyonlands and other NPs are now requiring day use permits for vehicles using the 4x4 trails and limiting the number of permits issued. This may well be the future model for all public lands unless we begin practicing a little restraint on our own.
It would be nice if more members would participate in this discussion.
 

slomatt

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1,723
Bay Area, CA
The original intent of this thread was to suggest that Overland Bound add a forum to discuss land use issues. Based on the above posts it seems there is some interest in this topic.

That said, this thread is in the "Community Ideas and Requests" forum, which is not really a good place for ongoing discussion of land use issues. It might be best to lock this thread and move the discussion to a new forum, or else to a thread in a more appropriate location.
 
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The Raven

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In the NMW you have always had to pay to play...but there are many areas that you don't. That being said..the Gaspe' is probably nicer with better food :)

Hmmm, I had no idea what was going on up in the north country. We have always wanted to go up there after the first frost, set up a basecamp and back pack a couple of one nighters in various directions. Are you saying that we must join up with a pay for play group to get us into the back country? If so, we'll just keep driving through Maine on our way up to the Gaspe'.
As a young man I always wanted to go and drive the Rubicon Trail. No longer, it is way too crowded, way too rowdy. Way too over the top everything. Canyonlands and other NPs are now requiring day use permits for vehicles using the 4x4 trails and limiting the number of permits issued. This may well be the future model for all public lands unless we begin practicing a little restraint on our own.
It would be nice if more members would participate in this discussion.
 
T

The Raven

Guest
Yes...there should be a subforum

The original intent of this thread was to suggest that Overland Bound add a forum to discuss land use issues. Based on the above posts it seems there is some interest in this topic.

That said, this thread is in the "Community Ideas and Requests" forum, which is not really a good place for ongoing discussion of land use issues. It might be best to lock this thread and move the discussion to a new forum, or else to a thread in a more appropriate location.
 
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MOAK

Rank V
Launch Member

Off-Road Ranger I

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Wherever we park it will be home !!
First Name
Donald
Last Name
Diehl
Member #

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WRPN 506
The original intent of this thread was to suggest that Overland Bound add a forum to discuss land use issues. Based on the above posts it seems there is some interest in this topic.

That said, this thread is in the "Community Ideas and Requests" forum, which is not really a good place for ongoing discussion of land use issues. It might be best to lock this thread and move the discussion to a new forum, or else to a thread in a more appropriate location.
So, can the moderators create and transfer?
 

Neil Q Smith

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The original intention of this thread is good.
We need to inform each other about future access and land use issues.
Justs needs to be located in a more suitable Forum area...
 

Kent R

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Im all for a land use thread but it also needs to include responsible land usage by our members! I met with Michael at off the grid and this is a very important topic to him, because OB has grown so fast and we are out in big numbers on the trail and need we need to be a Responsible Land Use group, in other words people see our medallions, stickers, flags and so on and instantly think either good or bad of the main organization. Gets back to the Leave it Better Than you Found it principle.

The Sierra Foothills meet up group will be sponsoring a member educational meeting with the El Dorado National Forest to get updated on land use and what is expected from us as users. This is strictly an educational meeting and nothing else. One of our members is in responsible through another group for the Long Canyon Trail maintenance so I will try and get him to help get information out to this thread.