Traveler III
I took delivery today so let the electric adventures begin ⚡
Electric powered overland vehicle
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Advocate I
Enjoy it.
I was not so brave, went the plug in hybrid way. It is very cool to off road in nearly complete silence.
My plan is to try to "jailbreak" the big battery to us for camping purposes.
While with the EV things require more planning and time to recharge for sure, I think PHEV 's will definitely have a place for camping.
But I don't share the optimistic view short therm. Since I got the plug in, I looked more carefully at the public charging situations In Europe is pretty bad. The sales of EV's, PHEV grow much fasters than the public charging available. On highways they are almost inevitably occupied almost all the time from what I saw. In cities is not much better.
I was not so brave, went the plug in hybrid way. It is very cool to off road in nearly complete silence.
My plan is to try to "jailbreak" the big battery to us for camping purposes.
While with the EV things require more planning and time to recharge for sure, I think PHEV 's will definitely have a place for camping.
But I don't share the optimistic view short therm. Since I got the plug in, I looked more carefully at the public charging situations In Europe is pretty bad. The sales of EV's, PHEV grow much fasters than the public charging available. On highways they are almost inevitably occupied almost all the time from what I saw. In cities is not much better.
In the same vein, long term self sustained ICE travel is impossible as well. Nobody is saying that we can drive around using only the sun (unless you are kids at MIT, who are actually doing it) in an EV, just saying that overlanding in them is not impossible, and that extending their range may, in fact, be possible.
Advocate I
I don't know about you, I struggle to carry an extra sun with me... but extra fuel is easy (and my rig has a 60 gallon tank to begin with). The MIT kids that are doing self-sustained EV stuff are using hyper light/aero vehicles with huge horizontal surface area. They're not remotely related to something one could Overland in. Look at my math again, and reconsider if you think self-sustained EV Overlanding is possible...
...or do the math yourself. The amount of solar energy potential in a given area is well-known (and a constant, it's not something science/tech can improve). It's pretty easy to estimate the horizontal area on a vehicle. Efficiency of solar panels is well-known. The energy consumption of EV SUVs/trucks is also well known. The rest is just some basic multiplication, no room for interpretation or bias.
Even Elon Musk has said many times there's simply not enough energy potential in the surface area of a passenger vehicle for them to self-sustain, ever.
-TJ
Traveler III
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Advocate I
In another 20 years what? Are you implying solar will be able to meet the energy needs of an Overland-capable rig in 20 years for self-sustained travel? I don't know what you're seeing that others (like Elon Musk) aren't, but there just isn't enough energy per square foot of solar even if you assumed 100% efficient panels (about 5 times what is available now). Scroll up, I gave all the numbers above...
-TJ
Traveler III
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No I’m saying in another 20 years it may be possible if battery and solar technology changes, along with lighter vehicles and more energy efficient motors. it’s not feasible now, I live with solar only electricity, so I’m fully aware of its capabilities
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Advocate I
But the math just doesn't work, even if you assume 100% efficient solar panels. Now, battery tech might improve such that range is much better, and rigs might get lighter and certainly will get more efficient. But the limitation of how much solar energy is available per square foot is what it is. It's not something that changes with technology. The efficiency of panels will certainly improve, but that just changes the amount of that energy they capture - not how much energy is ultimately available.
-TJ
Advocate I
my dream is of some kind of fuel cell / mini reactor, like the Terminator had in his chest. It is more feasible than a vehicle powered by solar, even at the theoretical level.
Vehicles have only gotten heavier over the years due to safety, NVH reduction, and overall size
Adding batteries to them is not going to help weight
We should be concentrating on wildly efficient hybrid designs.
Until there's a green battery breakthrough, theres nothing green about them. By the law of thirds, 300mile range, is only 100m for me. That's not going to cut it (about half that, of an f350).
Weight of a hybrid wouldn't even be that bad. No transfer case. No front drive shaft. No alternator. No starter. No starting battery. Much smaller engine. 4cyl diesel. Front diff contains the electric motor.
Lemans cars are AWD hybrids and do quite well. But $$$$$$$$$.
Until there's a green battery breakthrough, theres nothing green about them. By the law of thirds, 300mile range, is only 100m for me. That's not going to cut it (about half that, of an f350).
Weight of a hybrid wouldn't even be that bad. No transfer case. No front drive shaft. No alternator. No starter. No starting battery. Much smaller engine. 4cyl diesel. Front diff contains the electric motor.
Lemans cars are AWD hybrids and do quite well. But $$$$$$$$$.
Advocate I
Some real world experience, what I am writing here is primarily valid for Europe, more specifically Spain and Portugal as a foreigner . Long story short, we are very very far from Overlanding in an electrical vehicle, at least in Europe.
I just came back from a 3 week trip, I did about 4900 km, that is aprox 3k miles, in 3 countries. I went across France non stop driving in one go, and spent most of my time in Spain and Portugal, in back country, as far as possible from large cities. In this time I managed to charge from a public charger a total of, hold on - 3 times. I did not make a mission to charge non stop - is not worth it at all for long trips in a plug in hybrid,.
Still, I said to myself, why not make the most of the vehicle with the minimum effort. For example, when lunch time came, I was looking for a charge station with some restaurants near by, or if I had some shopping to do i would look for a charger with a supermarket near by. On camp sites I would request spot with an RV hook up.
The situation is dire.
1. Each country has their own app, rfid card or what ever, and it is not one, In France I spotted about 3 types at minimum, In Spain 4, in Portugal 2. unknown if they are compatible, meaning there is no guarantee that if you have the app/ card from one it will work on the other networks in the same country.
Most of the time, this so called charging spots are 90 % of time a small shity thing with max 2 plugs. 40% of the ones i found were either occupied or non functioning. And there is no way to know if they are free or not, unless you are a member of that specific network and their app is very good ( most of the time not ) . next one might be 10-20 km away, and of course, also occupied. I would not want to be a an EV driver .
So what it is occupied, maybe you wait, you are on holiday. Best case scenario, you wait at least 1 h, hoping the guy who is plugged is near by and gets the notification. What if is work or does not care ? well you are shit out of luck.. :)
2. You got lucky, the bloody thing is free. Unfortunately it does not work like a gas pump, where all you need is some cash or a well know credit card. You need to have a specific RFID card or an app. Good luck installing it on spot, you go trough 10 steps, than it asks you for example the Tax identification number from the Spanish tax authority :) . If you chose non - spanish resident option, the app crashes. In Portugal is impossible to get one of this cards or install the app unless you have a contract with one of the electricity suppliers in Portugal. When I was looking for some info about charging in Portugal, found a story from a French guy with a full electric car who realy wanted to go there with his electric car. The long story short, to get a card compatible with Portugal's EV charge networks, it might be easier to apply for a visa for Russia or Iran.
3. charging at Campsites. A full EV takes for ever to charge from an RV plug, but with a plug in hybrid this is feasible. Many campsites offer 10, 16 amps connections at 230 V . In Spain, Portugal, this only a label, it does not mean a thing. And when you tell them they just pretend they don't understand, you can't charge your car here etc etc..
One exception was a campsite in Spain owned by a Dutch guy. In general, campsites in Spain and Portugal have crappy services, there are some exceptions, but they are far far from other countries. As I travel i will test more.
4 . Where I did manage to charge, well in France. France, almost at every gas station on the highway, there at least one charge station. I found some out of order, many locked out for outsiders, but some were open ( meaning just a credit card would be enough ) and even found an impressive one. a row of 8 x 150 kw charging stations . They had a power station housed in a small building next to it, looked like big enough to supply power to a small town. Of course the type 2 plug on the 150 kw/h power station could only supply 4 kw/h :) , a bit better than the standard wall plug in my garage :) . here I paid 45 cents/kw, it is costly, but ok ish, better than gas. For another charging point, the type 2 connection was even free. no app, no card no nothing.
5. Cost. While I was expecting most of the things above, the cost was a shocker. Most fast chargers I saw, for the DC connections specially, were charging by the minute. for 50 KW DC it was often at 45 cent/min faster ones 60c min. Mind you, a DC 50 KW charger will charge at 50 KW only in ideal conditions, in general you are lucky if you get more than half that theoretical speed. like in my case a 150 kw station was supping only 4 kw when my car can take 7kw easily. Even smallish EV's have at a 60 kw battery. Even with the gas prices in Europe , now around 2 euro/l in most places (that would about 8 USD/ gallon ) it is getting close enough that most of this advertised advantage of charging cheap goes out the window. At those rates, your fuel cost is at least 2/3 from an equivalent diesel . You will only charge cheap at home. The rest is pure fantasy, the first years with free charging, special rates are long gone. In Us is more or less the same, fast chargers cost are almost on par with gas, from what I saw on TFL, the trip with the F- 150 electric.
As I explained, It is really enjoyable to go off road electric. That was the only reason I even tried to get a full charge at least before I knew I had an off road section to do.
Plus I was in holiday, so I had time to experiment a bit, just for my curiosity.
I just read that like 30 % of all the chargers in Europe are in a 3-4 countries. Maybe there is better, but most Europe is basically EV impractical.
Biggest issue I see in Europe is this stupid insistence to have special cards/apps to access the chargers. even if they triple the charging network, it will be useless. This people seem to have as primary business model collecting data, not selling power.
Me personally, I will never ever buy a pure EV unless I can go to a charger, flash my card or what ever payment accepted and start charging.
I will not even bother to get any RFID card and what ever app comes with, I simply refuse to go down this rabbit hole. . Ok, goolge collects data for a free service . But this shits charge you a lot, It should not be like this. Plus one card one app is not enough, you will probably need many of them, depends where you will travel.
Since this is public service, I can only see this free unempeded access if it is regulated at the EU level. Offer a discount for your members fine, but let others charge too... otherwise, EV is dead even before it takes off.
Last thing to mention, the amount of EV owners I saw this trip loosing their shit in front of a charge point or hitting it furiously and waving their phone and pacing around with some support guy was amazing..
I just came back from a 3 week trip, I did about 4900 km, that is aprox 3k miles, in 3 countries. I went across France non stop driving in one go, and spent most of my time in Spain and Portugal, in back country, as far as possible from large cities. In this time I managed to charge from a public charger a total of, hold on - 3 times. I did not make a mission to charge non stop - is not worth it at all for long trips in a plug in hybrid,.
Still, I said to myself, why not make the most of the vehicle with the minimum effort. For example, when lunch time came, I was looking for a charge station with some restaurants near by, or if I had some shopping to do i would look for a charger with a supermarket near by. On camp sites I would request spot with an RV hook up.
The situation is dire.
1. Each country has their own app, rfid card or what ever, and it is not one, In France I spotted about 3 types at minimum, In Spain 4, in Portugal 2. unknown if they are compatible, meaning there is no guarantee that if you have the app/ card from one it will work on the other networks in the same country.
Most of the time, this so called charging spots are 90 % of time a small shity thing with max 2 plugs. 40% of the ones i found were either occupied or non functioning. And there is no way to know if they are free or not, unless you are a member of that specific network and their app is very good ( most of the time not ) . next one might be 10-20 km away, and of course, also occupied. I would not want to be a an EV driver .
So what it is occupied, maybe you wait, you are on holiday. Best case scenario, you wait at least 1 h, hoping the guy who is plugged is near by and gets the notification. What if is work or does not care ? well you are shit out of luck.. :)
2. You got lucky, the bloody thing is free. Unfortunately it does not work like a gas pump, where all you need is some cash or a well know credit card. You need to have a specific RFID card or an app. Good luck installing it on spot, you go trough 10 steps, than it asks you for example the Tax identification number from the Spanish tax authority :) . If you chose non - spanish resident option, the app crashes. In Portugal is impossible to get one of this cards or install the app unless you have a contract with one of the electricity suppliers in Portugal. When I was looking for some info about charging in Portugal, found a story from a French guy with a full electric car who realy wanted to go there with his electric car. The long story short, to get a card compatible with Portugal's EV charge networks, it might be easier to apply for a visa for Russia or Iran.
3. charging at Campsites. A full EV takes for ever to charge from an RV plug, but with a plug in hybrid this is feasible. Many campsites offer 10, 16 amps connections at 230 V . In Spain, Portugal, this only a label, it does not mean a thing. And when you tell them they just pretend they don't understand, you can't charge your car here etc etc..
One exception was a campsite in Spain owned by a Dutch guy. In general, campsites in Spain and Portugal have crappy services, there are some exceptions, but they are far far from other countries. As I travel i will test more.
4 . Where I did manage to charge, well in France. France, almost at every gas station on the highway, there at least one charge station. I found some out of order, many locked out for outsiders, but some were open ( meaning just a credit card would be enough ) and even found an impressive one. a row of 8 x 150 kw charging stations . They had a power station housed in a small building next to it, looked like big enough to supply power to a small town. Of course the type 2 plug on the 150 kw/h power station could only supply 4 kw/h :) , a bit better than the standard wall plug in my garage :) . here I paid 45 cents/kw, it is costly, but ok ish, better than gas. For another charging point, the type 2 connection was even free. no app, no card no nothing.
5. Cost. While I was expecting most of the things above, the cost was a shocker. Most fast chargers I saw, for the DC connections specially, were charging by the minute. for 50 KW DC it was often at 45 cent/min faster ones 60c min. Mind you, a DC 50 KW charger will charge at 50 KW only in ideal conditions, in general you are lucky if you get more than half that theoretical speed. like in my case a 150 kw station was supping only 4 kw when my car can take 7kw easily. Even smallish EV's have at a 60 kw battery. Even with the gas prices in Europe , now around 2 euro/l in most places (that would about 8 USD/ gallon ) it is getting close enough that most of this advertised advantage of charging cheap goes out the window. At those rates, your fuel cost is at least 2/3 from an equivalent diesel . You will only charge cheap at home. The rest is pure fantasy, the first years with free charging, special rates are long gone. In Us is more or less the same, fast chargers cost are almost on par with gas, from what I saw on TFL, the trip with the F- 150 electric.
As I explained, It is really enjoyable to go off road electric. That was the only reason I even tried to get a full charge at least before I knew I had an off road section to do.
Plus I was in holiday, so I had time to experiment a bit, just for my curiosity.
I just read that like 30 % of all the chargers in Europe are in a 3-4 countries. Maybe there is better, but most Europe is basically EV impractical.
Biggest issue I see in Europe is this stupid insistence to have special cards/apps to access the chargers. even if they triple the charging network, it will be useless. This people seem to have as primary business model collecting data, not selling power.
Me personally, I will never ever buy a pure EV unless I can go to a charger, flash my card or what ever payment accepted and start charging.
I will not even bother to get any RFID card and what ever app comes with, I simply refuse to go down this rabbit hole. . Ok, goolge collects data for a free service . But this shits charge you a lot, It should not be like this. Plus one card one app is not enough, you will probably need many of them, depends where you will travel.
Since this is public service, I can only see this free unempeded access if it is regulated at the EU level. Offer a discount for your members fine, but let others charge too... otherwise, EV is dead even before it takes off.
Last thing to mention, the amount of EV owners I saw this trip loosing their shit in front of a charge point or hitting it furiously and waving their phone and pacing around with some support guy was amazing..
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You're experiencing this whilst there is a global(ist) full court press to encourage EV uptake.
Now imagine how joyful it will be once they succeed in convincing some significant number of people to accept them and they are no longer interested in improving uptake.
EV is not about your economic concerns, your environmental concerns, or your satisfaction.
EV is about control, and about providing a massive financial boondoggle enabling yet another massive wealth transfer.
Explorer I
Klaus Schwab has a plan and he is disappointed that you are not bleating on command.
You're experiencing this whilst there is a global(ist) full court press to encourage EV uptake.
Now imagine how joyful it will be once they succeed in convincing some significant number of people to accept them and they are no longer interested in improving uptake.
EV is not about your economic concerns, your environmental concerns, or your satisfaction.
EV is about control, and about providing a massive financial boondoggle enabling yet another massive wealth transfer.
Don't bogart zee bugs my friend, pass zem over to me......
Advocate II
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I've been watching this thread for a while.
Solar-powered overlapping is possible even if not very practical.
Link to an Australian 4x4 site:
unsealed4x4.com.au
Solar-powered overlapping is possible even if not very practical.
Link to an Australian 4x4 site:
SOLAR POWERED ZOOKS VS THE SIMPSON DESERT
unsealed4x4.com.au
Off-Road Ranger I
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Oh, stop it. In another 20-25 years technologies we’ve not even heard of will be discovered. Do all the math you want but you do sound like my grandpa. He was born in 1887. As a young man he was completely against self powered vehicles. By the time he was 40 years old he had two gasoline powered tractors, a Mack truck, a Ford pickup and a Ford model A. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan of all new technologies for transportation, I’m also a fan of my solid axled 6,000 lb hobby truck. As long as I have the ability to carry enough energy for a 600 mile range ( long range aux 25 gallon tank, two 5 gal gerrys one 6 gal boat tank ) I’ll keep driving it. When an EV can do that, and is affordable, I’m in.
Advocate I
Dude, the sun only delivers so much energy to the surface of the earth... it's just fact. Even if you harvest it ALL from every square inch of a vehicle it's not enough. Again, that's not an opinion, it's a scientific fact. And even if by some miracle that weren't the case, and you could get an EV to self-sustain in 12hrs of direct light, what about cloudy days, or... IDK... a forest with trees blocking the sunlight? IDK about you, but I like to Overland in forests. I'm not saying there's no way some new technology none of us have thought of yet won't make all-electric Overlanding possible. I'm just saying solar will NOT be the thing that does it...
-TJ
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Off-Road Ranger I
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Did you actually read my second sentence? Your mathematical argument is sound, based upon current technology, ( pun intended) The ICE is twice as efficient as it was 50 years ago. You don’t think that EVs will become more efficient and increase their MPWatts?
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Member III
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I think we need to give up on the idea of solar as the solution for charging EV''s, at best they'll be able to extend their distance. I'll post this again as improving battery technology is going to be what gets the 600 mile range like @MOAK suggested. The company below is developing a new battery technology that reportedly made it 752 miles with a Tesla! Now they are testing with BMW, and say that the Gemini Dual-Chemistry battery gets 600 Mile Range in a BMW iX!
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