Daily driver overlanding

[TM89]

I'm just going to throw out a curve-ball, but why not a separate DD and Overlander? I get the benefits of one vehicle for both (1 set of tire/brakes/oil changes/etc, reg and insurance on one vehicle vs. 2 etc.) but I always think it's at least worth considering dedicated vehicles. Say you were going to spend $30-40k on the options you've listed (maybe more for some of them, like a new RX appears to start at nearly $50k), you could spend ~$25k on a brand new Civic and ~$15k on a good Frontier/Xterra Pro-4X (just as one example) and have vehicles very well suited to their individual purposes.


-TJ

You know, its funny you said that. My daily is a 2014 civic si. Car is fun to wrench on and a blast to drive plus i fill it for $30. The more this thread has gone on I just may do that.

Finding a one size fits all vehicle is damn near impossible. But I DO wanna get back on the trails.

 

[tjZ06]

You know, its funny you said that. My daily is a 2014 civic si. Car is fun to wrench on and a blast to drive plus i fill it for $30. The more this thread has gone on I just may do that.

Finding a one size fits all vehicle is damn near impossible. But I DO wanna get back on the trails.

Perfect! You're halfway there already having the Civic, now you can consider more "serious" off roaders. Not saying you need a Jeep on tons and 42"s or anything, but you can consider true 4wds with low range and whatnot.

-TJ

 

[TM89]

Perfect! You're halfway there already having the Civic, now you can consider more "serious" off roaders. Not saying you need a Jeep on tons and 42"s or anything, but you can consider true 4wds with low range and whatnot.

-TJ

I WILL say this tho, i forgot about the xterra. My ex had one, thing was decent until it gave us consistent emissions problems. But i think that was as unique circumstance, ive seen many, many others rack miles up on them without issue. Once the strawberry milkshake thing is fixed, anyway

 

[tjZ06]

I WILL say this tho, i forgot about the xterra. My ex had one, thing was decent until it gave us consistent emissions problems. But i think that was as unique circumstance, ive seen many, many others rack miles up on them without issue. Once the strawberry milkshake thing is fixed, anyway

Yeah, I just threw that out there because they seem like a "bargain." I paid 12.5k for my '12 Pro-4X with ~140k miles but in very good shape with full records. A similarly equipped 4Runner of the same era/miles seemed like it was going to be nearly twice as expensive. FWIW the SMOD thing was fixed sometime around '10. Same with the timing chain guide issues. So, if you get a later 2nd Gen most of the "known issues" aren't issues. But there are tons of other options out there, I still like WJs and since you're a mechanic you can deal with the WJ quirks and problems. WK1 Grands are an interesting option too. WK2 Grands are super comfortable/capable but a very different price range than Xterra/WJ/WK1 type stuff.

-TJ

 

[TM89]

Yeah, I just threw that out there because they seem like a "bargain." I paid 12.5k for my '12 Pro-4X with ~140k miles but in very good shape with full records. A similarly equipped 4Runner of the same era/miles seemed like it was going to be nearly twice as expensive. FWIW the SMOD thing was fixed sometime around '10. Same with the timing chain guide issues. So, if you get a later 2nd Gen most of the "known issues" aren't issues. But there are tons of other options out there, I still like WJs and since you're a mechanic you can deal with the WJ quirks and problems. WK1 Grands are an interesting option too. WK2 Grands are super comfortable/capable but a very different price range than Xterra/WJ/WK1 type stuff.

-TJ

What kinda quirks we talkin here? I can do some stuff but I dont have the time to get into internal engine/tranny stuff but I can do cooling system, suspension, basic maintenance, etc. Ill check out WK1 and WJs but Im pretty sure theyre the late 90s/early 2000s era

 

[tjZ06]

WJ was '99-04 and is the 2nd generation, but last that was solid front/rear axles. WK1 was '05-2010 and went IFS, but was still solid rear. WK2s were '11-21 and are IFS/IRS. As for WJ quirks there are lots of little things like the wiring harness in from the body to the doors hardens and cracks (especially in the driver's door) causing weird intermittent switch functionality issues, the HVAC blower-motor resistor melts down (and burns part of its harness), the blend doors fail. They also have some "big" issues like being prone to rust, and since they're unibody rust can lead to things like the rear lower control arm mounts ripping right off. But the biggest is issue is the 4.7 Powertech drops valve seats. You can get 4.0L I6 WJs, but IMHO the V8 is much better suited to the vehicle, the trans you get with the V8 is much better (545RFE that was also used in Hemi RAMs of the same era, the I6 WJs got a weaker trans than even the 4.0L XJs) and the trims you tend to find the V8 in are the ones you want. The whole idea with a WJ to me is it's pretty nice/luxurious, has a great multil-link suspension with solid axles, and has a V8. Of course, many will disagree with me. But what that does mean is if you get a 4.7 WJ that hasn't had the heads done, you're on borrowed time. Some people get 200-300k out of a stock 4.7, others like me have a valve seat drop just after 100k. IMHO w/ a WJ the trim to get is a '02-04 Overland. That's the most loaded, and you get the 4.7 HO which has some significant improvements and 30/30 more HP/TQ. As for the WK, the reason to go with it and give up the solid front axle is you can get them with 5.7 Hemis.

-TJ

 

[DRAX]

Two things I would take a close look at are...

• Transmission
• AWD system

Depending on where you go one or both of these could be an Achilles's heel. Low-speed off-roading with a CVT or a DCT will often times result in the transmission overheating in short order. Off-roading where there's a pretty constant need for power at the rear can also result in overheating part of the AWD system. Specifically, the iVTM-4 system that Honda uses. The problem with this system is that there is no traditional rear diff, power is managed by electromechanical clutches in the rear end, one for each side. Running in "Lock" mode is meant to be temporary because the clutches will overheat pretty quickly as there is always slip, the output to the rear end is always overdriven and the clutches are actuated to provide push as needed, it's not 1:1 with the front. My wife had a 2012 Honda Pilot with the iVTM-4 system, it worked great on pavement and wasn't bad on fire roads, but any time there were a challenge it would struggle. The rear never fully locks, either, even when the "Lock" button has been engaged.

For the above reasons, if you're wanting a combination of reliability and capability I would only buy a vehicle that has a proper 4WD system that mechanically locks and has a low range. Even if the terrain doesn't require 4L, if you're driving slowly up a road or hill you can still cook your trans without low range. Being able to take that load off the trans makes the experience much more relaxing and gives you a lot more control.

That's not to say the vehicles you listed aren't good, you just have to determine where you're more willing to make compromises. You live in SW OK and while the terrain there may be flat (I currently live in east central IL so I know flat) you're just a day's drive from some of the best overlanding areas in the country (IMO); Colorado. We looooove going to the San Juans and exploring but I wouldn't go without proper 4WD and low range. I know people push their Subarus and other AWD vehicles hard to try and do the Alpine Loop, which isn't particularly difficult but you really do need the ability to go slowly, to say they've done it but that is not something I would recommend anyone do if they want to enjoy the experience and if they like their vehicle and want it to last.

I also get that fuel economy is a concern, especially if you're going to daily it as well. So, I'm going to toss a suggestion out there that I think would be the best all-around vehicle (and is one that we own currently so I have some experience with it); A Jeep Grand Cherokee WK2, which is 2010-2022 model years. We currently own a 2016 WK2 EcoDiesel (wife's rig) and there have been times that we've been tempted to swap vehicles (I have a 2017 GMC Canyon that I've built up for overlanding), I have more of a desire/need for an SUV now and my wife has more of a need for a truck (beekeeping). We haven't swapped yet for the simple fact that I finally have my truck dialed in for our travels and her Jeep is 100% stock except for some A/Ts on the factory 20" wheels.

In any event, the WK2 will get you a solid, proven drivetrain and if you get one with the 3.6L V6 or EcoDiesel then fuel economy will still be respectable. The 3.6L is solid and doesn't have all of the emissions annoyances of the diesel. The HEMI is great, but you'll pay for it at the pump. It'll have no problem beating a 4Runner in terms of fuel economy, too. The 3.6 WK2 should get around 20MPG compared to the 4Runner's 17MPG (stock for stock).

We also owned a 2006 Grand Cherokee with the 4.7 V8, that was also a great vehicle but the fuel economy was pretty awful.

With the Grand Cherokee you also get full-time 4WD which is great in the snow. There's also air suspension available (My wife's Jeep has it) which will allow you to raise it up off-road and get close to 11" of ground clearance (stock tires).

So, that's what I would look for. I'd think you'd be able to pick one up that's a few years old for a decent price.

 

[TM89]

I appreciate that, you dont want your transmission/ awd system killing itself when you dont need it to. That being said, the SH-AWD system the MDX has is far superior and handles great as a full time AWD system that can put 70% to the rear, and ALL of that to either rear tire if needed. Its more proactive, instead of reactive.

Still more for snow and slick trails and actual offroading for sure.

Good point about Colorado too, that'd be a fun trip. And you're the second to bring up the Jeep, I'm really gonna need to explore those more.

 

[DRAX]

I appreciate that, you dont want your transmission/ awd system killing itself when you dont need it to. That being said, the SH-AWD system the MDX has is far superior and handles great as a full time AWD system that can put 70% to the rear, and ALL of that to either rear tire if needed. Its more proactive, instead of reactive.

SH-AWD is the same as the i-VTM4 system in the Pilot/Ridgeline, the only difference is that the SH-AWD system is tuned to provide better on-road performance and the i-VTM4 system is more tuned for all-around use. Neither SH-AWD nor i-VTM4 are going to provide full-lock to any rear wheel and will overheat if pushed too much. Subaru's symmetrical AWD and any other AWD or 4WD system that is capable of a 50/50 torque split using gears instead of clutches will be more capable and reliable than clutch-based AWD systems. The Subaru CVT is the weak link (and head gaskets on some years) with those vehicles in terms of reliability, and without low-range the capability is going to be limited.

 

[Dunnage Garage]

If I ever had to walk away from the Wrangler platform...I would look very hard at a 4x4 van, something similar to "Primal Outdoors" on YouTube, or a Subaru Outback or Forester. Also like the Land Rovers, but I don't know how reliable they are.

 

[TM89]

Subarus are a good choice, i have to look into late model foresters some more.

The imvt vs shawd kinda has me uncertain, i swore i read there was a bigger difference between the two. More to come!

 

[DRAX]

Subarus are a good choice, i have to look into late model foresters some more.

The imvt vs shawd kinda has me uncertain, i swore i read there was a bigger difference between the two. More to come!

From someone that works for Honda...

Super Handling All-Wheel Drive

This system, often abbreviated to SH-AWD, is used on Acura vehicles and can be found on the TLX sedan, and RDX and MDX sport-utilities.

In many ways, the capabilities of this system line up with that of the Honda i-VTM4 system, including that it provides full-time all-wheel drive with between 10 and 70 per cent of power going the rear wheels at any given time, and up to 100 per cent of torque going to either rear wheel via torque vectoring. However, the SH-AWD system is tuned slightly differently in that its priority is outright cornering performance, while i-VTM4 is tuned to provide greater versatility to navigate varying road surface conditions. These differences are realized through the speed at which the systems respond to inputs, and the SH-AWD system’s ability to handle the higher amount of torque generated by Acura’s more powerful engines.

Having owned and put the i-VTM4 system to work off-road to see what the limits were I can tell you that it is quite disappointing off-road and the rear clutches overheating, which results in them fully disabling and putting you into FWD-only mode, is not what you want to have happen when you need that traction the most.

The "100% of torque to either rear wheel" isn't exactly true, either. Though yes, that is 100% of the up to 70% that can be sent to the rear, it does not fully lock. I have engaged the "i-VTM4 Lock" function and then crossed the Pilot up while going up a test hill, I'd get one front wheel spinning and neither of the rears spinning. They were receiving torque, but the clutches weren't able to overcome the traction and the Pilot halted forward/upward progress. It couldn't make it up the hill. After a couple of attempts I got a warning about i-VTM4 overheating and power to the rear was disabled (clutches unlocked).

The i-VTM4 and SH-AWD systems are great on-road in inclement weather and will do well on mild dirt roads, but any real or prolonged need for power going to the rear will result in the system disabling itself until it cools back down and it honestly doesn't take much for it to overheat.

In terms of reliability the Honda was great, the only issues we had in the 126k miles of ownership (bought new in 2012 and sold around 2018) were a defective sun visor early on and a front wheel bearing that started failing around 100k miles. Everything else worked as it should. I just can't recommend the Honda/Acura vehicles if you plan to go anywhere that you will actually need AWD or 4WD off-road.

 

[TM89]

I have seen some MDXs tackle some impressive courses at moab and in the snow etc so there is definitely some capability there. Nowhere near a dedicated off roader, but then again, overland and hardcore off road are two totally separate things.

But for the daily that drives 90% on pavement and hits dirt, trails on the weekend, I dont see why it would be a problem. I guess it depends on individual usage. Not everyone will be traversing fallen logs and deep mud every weekend.

 

[zgfiredude]

Keep the Civic. That part is a no brainer.

Now, you are going camping, kayaking, cooking, sleeping, hiking, biking......most of these things are large and heavy. Why limit yourself with a more modern computer controlled Japanese car? Let's think outside the box. Most off the vehicles you list will likely be in the low 20 mpgs once loaded, and you'll be making compromises all the time on what to take and where to go. Think '87 thru '91 Chevy/GMC Suburban. Take anything you want, you can live in it, and those years are throttle body fuel injected small block 350ci engines and overdrive transmissions. You'll get around 20 mpgs with them in the 1/2 ton variants, parts and maintenance is simple and inexpensive, parts are EVERYWHERE. Take friends and their stuff and it still has room and power. Just sayin' there are other ways to skin a cat.

 

[TM89]

Keep the Civic. That part is a no brainer.

Now, you are going camping, kayaking, cooking, sleeping, hiking, biking......most of these things are large and heavy. Why limit yourself with a more modern computer controlled Japanese car? Let's think outside the box. Most off the vehicles you list will likely be in the low 20 mpgs once loaded, and you'll be making compromises all the time on what to take and where to go. Think '87 thru '91 Chevy/GMC Suburban. Take anything you want, you can live in it, and those years are throttle body fuel injected small block 350ci engines and overdrive transmissions. You'll get around 20 mpgs with them in the 1/2 ton variants, parts and maintenance is simple and inexpensive, parts are EVERYWHERE. Take friends and their stuff and it still has room and power. Just sayin' there are other ways to skin a cat.

Now a suburban or tahoe may be overkill for what we're doing (2 adults, 1 dog no kids) but ive found a ton of trailblazers, 4x4 in good shape for next to nothing. May be something to think about.

 

[leeloo]

An LR Disco sport, is probably the most capable SUV off road, without going into true 4x4 with low range etc..
Comfortable for commuting, pretty good off road, simple coil suspension, so cheap to repair.
There are simple lift kits for it.

 

[robkroupa]

With you already having the civic I would agree with the others and look into getting a non daily driver trail rig.

 

[TM89]

With you already having the civic I would agree with the others and look into getting a non daily driver trail rig.

I think so too.

This means i can look at more options too, because frequent maintenance isnt necessarily a killer, so long as it can be done in a home garage.

 

[AggieOE]

Two vehicles is nice and all but it's also two insurances, two sets of routine maintenance, two parking spots, etc.
If you aren't doing anything crazy and aren't all giddy about a specific type of rig that isn't practical enough for DD (like an old LC, Jeep, LR, etc.), there really isn't a reason to have two vehicles.
Buy one good vehicle that you like.

Here are my quick picks out of your current thoughts:

If prioritizing mileage: Subaru Forester or Outback
If you don't need low range and want something fairly unique and has strong off-road DNA, a newish Forester (unfortunately with a CVT) with an LP Adventure lift kit and some all-terrain tires is pretty cool.

If prioritizing comfortability & "niceness": Acura MDX
Plenty capable in snow and dirt if not raising a wheel and has all the nice amenities. Throw some trail-terrain tires on there.

If prioritizing capability: Toyota 4Runner SR5
Keep it simple with OEM size all-terrain tires and no lift and you'll get ~20mpg highway. Note though, does NOT have full-time AWD unless you buy Limited trim.

 

[TM89]

Two vehicles is nice and all but it's also two insurances, two sets of routine maintenance, two parking spots, etc.
If you aren't doing anything crazy and aren't all giddy about a specific type of rig that isn't practical enough for DD (like an old LC, Jeep, LR, etc.), there really isn't a reason to have two vehicles.
Buy one good vehicle that you like.

Here are my quick picks out of your current thoughts:

If prioritizing mileage: Subaru Forester or Outback
If you don't need low range and want something fairly unique and has strong off-road DNA, a newish Forester (unfortunately with a CVT) with an LP Adventure lift kit and some all-terrain tires is pretty cool.

If prioritizing comfortability & "niceness": Acura MDX
Plenty capable in snow and dirt if not raising a wheel and has all the nice amenities. Throw some trail-terrain tires on there.

If prioritizing capability: Toyota 4Runner SR5
Keep it simple with OEM size all-terrain tires and no lift and you'll get ~20mpg highway. Note though, does NOT have full-time AWD unless you buy Limited trim.

Thats that im coming to realize. I went out exploring a bit today, and not saying I'm not gonna also try elsewhere, but the places I went today weren't difficult. Honestly a 2WD unibody could make it, granted it has enough clearance (some ruts and potholes etc). I DO however like to plan for bad weather so snow capability in AWD or a 4wd would be nice although a solid AWD would do it.

I should state also im looking at cars 10+ years old so thats where long term maintenance and reliability is a big consideration