Convoy Comms and Mode Standardization for Overland travel?

[pikeintheboat]

This is a common subject for discussion as it fits well here. EMS, Fire, and many other services that rely on radio communication deal with this issue every day. I am new to overland travel and 4x4 vehicles, but I have many years of experience with radio.

I am happy to see that it is becoming more common for Overlander types to have their ham radio license. I have had my amateur radio license for 16 years and it is one of the best hobbies! It has allowed me to talk all around the world and learn new things every day. I've also benefited from the RF knowledge I have learned from study to be hired for at least 2 jobs, and one of those turning into a career. Cool!

Radio communication is has extreme value. As a radio operator, you not only can talk to your buddies on the trail, but, in times of need you can pass messages to people needing information. The latest current event is the 2017 Hurricane season. I read many articles about ham radio operators relaying messages to family members around the country about their loved ones.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-358-outsmarting-the-nra-canada-s-magnitsky-act-ham-radios-for-puerto-rico-music-in-dna-and-more-1.4329733/when-smartphones-fail-how-students-in-a-ham-radio-club-are-helping-puerto-rico-1.4329877

Radio stations, even mobile, are "relay stations". So, this leads me my questions:

1. What if someone in a convoy doesn't have their ham license but has another mode of comms, like GMRS or CB?
2. How do you communicate with these individuals?
3. Is someone playing "Cross-mode" relay station in the convoy?

We're lucky that we have options here, but it's a lot easier for a convoy to have one mode to communicate especially in an Emergency. How do you tackle this situation? List it here!

Matt

 

[TerryD]

Welcome! There are many threads discussing this and the consensus view is a collective "meh...".

In the most recent ride I was on there was a mix of FRS and CB, with myself being the only one with both available. I spent the day relaying from one to the other.

I believe that FRS should be looked at for standardization. It's cheap and easy and doesn't scare or overwhelm people the way the radios that need time and effort in setup do. I pretty well always have a ham radio with me so should an emergency arise, those with me will most likely be able to communicate with someone.

I personally enjoy the ability to chat on the trail that any of these radios will provide. Its nice to pick with one another and discuss the terrain as well as being able to make decisions without a full on drivers meeting being needed.

I have a thread with a poll, not discussing the merits of the different services, but just showing what members have available so people can look into the popular ones to cover a few of the bases as they get more involved in the community.

 

[pikeintheboat]

Welcome! There are many threads discussing this and the consensus view is a collective "meh...".

In the most recent ride I was on there was a mix of FRS and CB, with myself being the only one with both available. I spent the day relaying from one to the other.

I believe that FRS should be looked at for standardization. It's cheap and easy and doesn't scare or overwhelm people the way the radios that need time and effort in setup do. I pretty well always have a ham radio with me so should an emergency arise, those with me will most likely be able to communicate with someone.

I personally enjoy the ability to chat on the trail that any of these radios will provide. Its nice to pick with one another and discuss the terrain as well as being able to make decisions without a full on drivers meeting being needed.

I have a thread with a poll, not discussing the merits of the different services, but just showing what members have available so people can look into the popular ones to cover a few of the bases as they get more involved in the community.

"Meh" seems disappointing since it seems like there are many threads talking about the issue. I'd also say that FRS radios are too weak for a convoy longer than a few miles. If I wanted to have a basic minimum, I would say that the VHF band is a perfect way to do this. FM mode, and more than a few miles of reliable communication with mobile antennas, not HT's. HT's can be used for comms outside the vehicle like with spotting on the trail.

Plus, for the cost of a cheap(terrible) lift kit and a small amount of effort you can have any ham radio you want. Just my view. I don't mind relay-ing, but like I said standardization on the convoy should be important.

 

[k9sar]

I have CB, HAM and FRS on board with hand sets to share.
Somehow the messages will get through. ;-)

 

[TerryD]

"Meh" seems disappointing since it seems like there are many threads talking about the issue. I'd also say that FRS radios are too weak for a convoy longer than a few miles. If I wanted to have a basic minimum, I would say that the VHF band is a perfect way to do this. FM mode, and more than a few miles of reliable communication with mobile antennas, not HT's. HT's can be used for comms outside the vehicle like with spotting on the trail.

Plus, for the cost of a cheap(terrible) lift kit and a small amount of effort you can have any ham radio you want. Just my view. I don't mind relay-ing, but like I said standardization on the convoy should be important.

Well, people just don't seem interested in investing that in it. I've preached reliable coms for years in many different groups and until their cell phones let them down in an emergency, no one shows interest. I've found it best to recommend cheap HTs that people will buy and then they'll see the merit in decent coms and possibly move forward with better gear. The local radio clubs even offer free testing for Ham and there's little interest in my area.

I really enjoy Ham as a stand alone hobby and mixing it with overlanding is fun as well. I wish I could get other locals involved, I think it would be a good time to be had by all!

 

[VCeXpedition]

As previously mentioned, this topic is discussed elsewhere, but it's a good topic and one that seems to be a point of almost contention on every trail run I've been on.

I'm one of those guys with Ham, CB, FRS that ends up being the cross-communication hub and it sucks because I rely on Ham as a basic comm tool, but with CB I never am quite sure it's worth repeating what's been said because there are some that just don't have the antenna figured out and they won't get the message anyway! It's a frustration of mine! And at best, CB quality is way worse than Ham... SWR anyone?

I do wish everyone would see the benefit of Ham and how easy it is to get licensed, and affordable it is to get radio'd. In my experience, a GOOD HT with an external antenna can go several miles on only 5 watts, of course a fixed radio is better, but baby steps for some.

CB is OK for the small groups that run close together, but when you're trying to keep 40 rigs spread over two large groups together, Ham is the only answer. Out here on a desert run, cell phones become irrelevant very quickly and everyone knows that right away, they are just not a viable answer at all. Quick and clear communication is key to a safe and fun run.

That said, there are some that insist on Ham or you won't qualify to attend that run, and I think that is not the answer.
We just need to continue to show/educate those that are on the fence about Ham (@Michael can you hear me?) and help our trail teams become more and better equipped as we go.

Wouldn't it be interesting to get a "roundtable discussion" of radio experts from here together and have a live chat of some sort to answer questions and try to motivate and educate people to get Ham'd?
Hmmm..., wonder if that technology is possible? Maybe a podcast topic?

 

[pikeintheboat]

As previously mentioned, this topic is discussed elsewhere, but it's a good topic and one that seems to be a point of almost contention on every trail run I've been on.

I'm one of those guys with Ham, CB, FRS that ends up being the cross-communication hub and it sucks because I rely on Ham as a basic comm tool, but with CB I never am quite sure it's worth repeating what's been said because there are some that just don't have the antenna figured out and they won't get the message anyway! It's a frustration of mine! And at best, CB quality is way worse than Ham... SWR anyone?

I do wish everyone would see the benefit of Ham and how easy it is to get licensed, and affordable it is to get radio'd. In my experience, a GOOD HT with an external antenna can go several miles on only 5 watts, of course a fixed radio is better, but baby steps for some.

CB is OK for the small groups that run close together, but when you're trying to keep 40 rigs spread over two large groups together, Ham is the only answer. Out here on a desert run, cell phones become irrelevant very quickly and everyone knows that right away, they are just not a viable answer at all. Quick and clear communication is key to a safe and fun run.

That said, there are some that insist on Ham or you won't qualify to attend that run, and I think that is not the answer.
We just need to continue to show/educate those that are on the fence about Ham (@Michael can you hear me?) and help our trail teams become more and better equipped as we go.

Wouldn't it be interesting to get a "roundtable discussion" of radio experts from here together and have a live chat of some sort to answer questions and try to motivate and educate people to get Ham'd?
Hmmm..., wonder if that technology is possible? Maybe a podcast topic?

Weird that ham radio would be the requirement to run a trail in a group. Seems like that would take the fun out of the run. Still, it brings up the point that people are try to work through. I’d be happy to join in on any conversation on radio. For me, it’s ham radio first and then GMRS. Can a group use a single GMRS license for trail runs? I’m going to check into that.

I just watched the OB Mojave Road vid and it looked like many were using VHF rigs in the convoy. Yea!

Even in an ideal situation you might need a relay in the middle of a convoy. But that can all be worked out with the trip lead.

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using OB Talk

 

[Michael]

As previously mentioned, this topic is discussed elsewhere, but it's a good topic and one that seems to be a point of almost contention on every trail run I've been on.

I'm one of those guys with Ham, CB, FRS that ends up being the cross-communication hub and it sucks because I rely on Ham as a basic comm tool, but with CB I never am quite sure it's worth repeating what's been said because there are some that just don't have the antenna figured out and they won't get the message anyway! It's a frustration of mine! And at best, CB quality is way worse than Ham... SWR anyone?

I do wish everyone would see the benefit of Ham and how easy it is to get licensed, and affordable it is to get radio'd. In my experience, a GOOD HT with an external antenna can go several miles on only 5 watts, of course a fixed radio is better, but baby steps for some.

CB is OK for the small groups that run close together, but when you're trying to keep 40 rigs spread over two large groups together, Ham is the only answer. Out here on a desert run, cell phones become irrelevant very quickly and everyone knows that right away, they are just not a viable answer at all. Quick and clear communication is key to a safe and fun run.

That said, there are some that insist on Ham or you won't qualify to attend that run, and I think that is not the answer.
We just need to continue to show/educate those that are on the fence about Ham (@Michael can you hear me?) and help our trail teams become more and better equipped as we go.

Wouldn't it be interesting to get a "roundtable discussion" of radio experts from here together and have a live chat of some sort to answer questions and try to motivate and educate people to get Ham'd?
Hmmm..., wonder if that technology is possible? Maybe a podcast topic?

If we can get together a panel of 3-4 people, we could get a podcast or some other live stream available. I'd be down with that! Also open to other suggestions for getting the word out. I agree this is a thing :)

M

 

[TerryD]

If we can get together a panel of 3-4 people, we could get a podcast or some other live stream available. I'd be down with that! Also open to other suggestions for getting the word out. I agree this is a thing :)

M

I would be happy to be a part of that!

 

[VCeXpedition]

Weird that ham radio would be the requirement to run a trail in a group. Seems like that would take the fun out of the run. Still, it brings up the point that people are try to work through. I’d be happy to join in on any conversation on radio. For me, it’s ham radio first and then GMRS. Can a group use a single GMRS license for trail runs? I’m going to check into that.

I just watched the OB Mojave Road vid and it looked like many were using VHF rigs in the convoy. Yea!

Even in an ideal situation you might need a relay in the middle of a convoy. But that can all be worked out with the trip lead.

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using OB Talk

Hey Matt, I agree that making a single type of comm as a requirement for a trail run is a bit militant, but it's happened here I've noticed from a couple people. It does take the fun out of it but certainly sets a standard!

Running the Mojave with that many people, we did have several members that were on Ham that played a key role. I communicated with the tail-gunner of the last team after arriving at Camp#2, we were both on 55 watt simplex and it was fun and awesome!
There was also a few people in mid-pack that were key to keeping people informed. That was a lot of fun!
The best part was that it happened organically because people stepped up and did what was needed!

If we can get together a panel of 3-4 people, we could get a podcast or some other live stream available. I'd be down with that! Also open to other suggestions for getting the word out. I agree this is a thing :)

M

And @Michael thanks for chiming in, that would be fun. I don't consider myself enough of an expert to add value, but I have answered enough questions for sure and understand the level at which people are intimidated by the idea of Ham radio. It shouldn't be a CB-bashing type of thing for sure, but a way to transition from OK Comms to better!

Some of the topics could be, types of radio, how to license, types of antenna and mounting position, how and why to SWR, when to run low/mid/high power from a fixed radio, when to use simplex and how to use repeaters...
Other useful information for new to semi-informed users?


Dan.

 

[TerryD]

Hey Matt, I agree that making a single type of comm as a requirement for a trail run is a bit militant, but it's happened here I've noticed from a couple people. It does take the fun out of it but certainly sets a standard!

Running the Mojave with that many people, we did have several members that were on Ham that played a key role. I communicated with the tail-gunner of the last team after arriving at Camp#2, we were both on 55 watt simplex and it was fun and awesome!
There was also a few people in mid-pack that were key to keeping people informed. That was a lot of fun!
The best part was that it happened organically because people stepped up and did what was needed!




And @Michael thanks for chiming in, that would be fun. I don't consider myself enough of an expert to add value, but I have answered enough questions for sure and understand the level at which people are intimidated by the idea of Ham radio. It shouldn't be a CB-bashing type of thing for sure, but a way to transition from OK Comms to better!

Some of the topics could be, types of radio, how to license, types of antenna and mounting position, how and why to SWR, when to run low/mid/high power from a fixed radio, when to use simplex and how to use repeaters...
Other useful information for new to semi-informed users?


Dan.

I think initially we would need to simply discuss the differences in modes between the radio services and why what works when it does. If it's popular, maybe do a separate thing on each service and its licensing requirements and then some on antennas, propagation and loading?

 

[pikeintheboat]

If we can get together a panel of 3-4 people, we could get a podcast or some other live stream available. I'd be down with that! Also open to other suggestions for getting the word out. I agree this is a thing :)

M

Michael-
Thanks for stopping by my forum post! I just got my membership ID on Saturday. Thanks again for your hard work at OB! Keep up the good work.

First off, I don't want to be telling the community what to do. Everybody has their own reasons for choosing a CB/HAM/other method for their rigs. But, there comes a time when everyone needs to be on the same page for trail hazards, emergencies, whatever. It just makes sense to have one way to communicate that is reliable and works best for the situation. For me, good comms is synonymous to using a torque wrench on a top fuel dragster. Standardization in a group should be encouraged. Just my view.

I think a video or podcast would work well to get the word out.

Matt

 

[VCeXpedition]

I think initially we would need to simply discuss the differences in modes between the radio services and why what works when it does. If it's popular, maybe do a separate thing on each service and its licensing requirements and then some on antennas, propagation and loading?

Just my experience, but references to "propagation and loading" are some of the reasons newbies are intimidated by transitioning to Ham.
I know it's important to know those things, but to introduce people to the hobby, maybe those could come later as learning improves?

 

[TerryD]

Just my experience, but references to "propagation and loading" are some of the reasons newbies are intimidated by transitioning to Ham.
I know it's important to know those things, but to introduce people to the hobby, maybe those could come later as learning improves?

Pretty much exactly what I said. A separate article, podcast or whatever later on if the initial one was a hit to dig deeper in and take that fear away and also help people understand what works and why.

Initially just explaining the differences in modes would help. Why 0.5W FM on FRS sounds so much better than 4W AM on CB at the same distance.

 

[pikeintheboat]

Just my experience, but references to "propagation and loading" are some of the reasons newbies are intimidated by transitioning to Ham.
I know it's important to know those things, but to introduce people to the hobby, maybe those could come later as learning improves?

Mine too, but good HT's don't have to tune anything. At least in VHF/UHF tuning is not as critical as CB's. And, the internet and YouTube has thousands of videos explaining how to tune a mobile antenna. With little effort Ham radio mobile installs are very gratifying. Here is one of my recent projects for my DD:
http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/94-cruze-owner-projects/128066-2011-cruze-eco-ham-radio-install.html

Here is one that I had in my Suzuki GV:
http://forum.expeditionportal.com/threads/10411-2M-Antenna-Recommendations?p=1416747#post1416747

My next project is the WJ.

 

[Michael]

Let's plan on doing a podcast - I can easily slip right into the role of asking a bunch of dumb questions :D

Anyone in? I nominate @VCeXpedition for a spot.

 

[MA_Trooper]

Let's plan on doing a podcast - I can easily slip right into the role of asking a bunch of dumb questions :D

Anyone in? I nominate @VCeXpedition for a spot.

I nominate @TerryD , @Big110 @ronharrington2 @Lars I know you guys know some stuff

 

[VCeXpedition]

Thanks @Chris Jones That seems a good list, I think @pikeintheboat knows some stuff!

It's important to 'tune' this to the beginner and not get too crazy about the real techy stuff and turn it into a 'show what I know' podium.

 

[MA_Trooper]

Thanks @Chris Jones That seems a good list, I think @pikeintheboat knows some stuff!

It's important to 'tune' this to the beginner and not get too crazy about the real techy stuff and turn it into a 'show what I know' podium.

I know @Lars has done some beginner study sessions for folks.

 

[pikeintheboat]

This is great! With enough advance time I could help too.