Continue building my Honda Element or find a Tacoma or 4Runner?

[CafeRoaster]

Hey y'all. Amateur overlander here. I just purchased a RTT for my Honda Element, and I'm budgeting for a roof rack now. Roof racks for mounting a RTT for the Element are $1,100, about $200 more than a Prinsu. This got me thinking... What else is the same cost or more for Toyotas - proven, capable overlanding rigs. Before I purchase a roof rack for the Element, I wanted to see if a more capable rig might actually be similar in cost.

So I created a spreadsheet to compare some of the big ticket items that I've either had done to my Element or am planning to do, and compare to the price of similar modifications to Tacoma and 4Runner.



On my Element, I've completed the suspension rebuild and everything below that are planned upgrades. Initial Cost is what I paid (for the Element) and what the used market is right now for a 2005 Tacoma and 2005 4Runner.

The Element is fairly gutless and not very capable as an off-road rig. I don't really want to do very technical trails, but I do want to be able to get to places that not everyone can get to. I'd like to do the Washington BDR, at the very least. From there, who knows. While my Element is more capable than most, ground clearance has become an issue even with my 2" lift, and traction once there's enough of an incline and there's differing contact between the tires. As with most unibody vehicles.

I cannot work remotely and probably never will, so getting time off to go for more than a couple of days will be rare, so I should count that into my considerations.

Something else to consider is that this Element was very well taken care of before me, and I'm doing the same. I know it very well, and I trust it to not leave me stranded due to any mechanical issues. That said, a winch cannot be mounted to it, there are no off-road bumpers, there is one skid plate manufacturer, there is one rock slider manufacturer, etc. And it's part-time AWD, not 4x4.

My Element has almost 190,000 miles on it. The Toyotas I've looked at that are under $15,000 all have ~200,000. There is potential to sell mine for ~$13,000. I've seen in person other Elements on original engines and transmissions with as high as 700,000 miles, and quite often over 300,000. I'm comparing to Toyotas due to their known reliability and capability.

I might be speaking to a biased crowd here, but what do y'all think? As a weekend warrior, should I just continue with what I have? Or should I go for something with more modularity and forward-thinking?

edit for clarity:
This will be my daily driver. I’m putting about 14 city miles on each day, 5 days a week, for commuting.

I’d love to be able to do mid-level technical trails, which is why I’ve been considering Toyotas with A-TRAC. For instance, I’d love to do the Washington BDR, at least.

Mostly, it will just be myself and my dog. However, I have a wife and 12 year-old that I’d like to be able to take. I have a RTT that sleeps 2, and I have ground tents. I don’t really want to build a sleeping platform, as sleeping in the car hasn’t been the best experience for me, even when I did have a platform. I think that space is better used for upgrades such as refrigerators, kitchen, etc.

 

[DintDobbs]

Really in order to answer this question, we'll need to know what you are doing with it. Realistically speaking, do you expect that you would benefit from having a more capable vehicle more than you would regret losing a familiar one?

If there is terrain in places that you regularly visit that you can't traverse due to your vehicle's limited aftermarket support, then a more capable vehicle would be the right option. But do consider that the hardcore wheeling rigs come with a higher operating cost, such as consuming more fuel, more expensive tires, etc. This expense quickly becomes a lifestyle rather than a hobby. Perhaps buying a second, dedicated "toy" and keeping your Element for daily driving and more casual runs is an option?

It's a shame to part with a vehicle that you know and like. It usually serves you well because it suits you well. You are smart to consider its maintenance history as well; you said you know yours was well maintained before you got it, which is an extremely good thing for you.

I'd suggest looking for something like a 2nd-gen Ford Explorer (my personal fave) or Chevy Blazer or Nissan XTerra for a cheap off-road vehicle. You can get a working 4x4 Explorer for just hundreds of dollars, and lifting them just 1 or 2 inches can easily fit 31" tires. Beware of examples nearing 300k miles; people don't generally take good care of Explorers or Blazers. Can't speak for other models.

I recently found a near-perfect 2000 Explorer Limited asking $4000 at 220k miles, so that's the ball park of the highest price you should ever have to pay for a secondary beat-around toy.

For what it's worth, the dimensions on any of these three vehicles shouldn't be very much larger than your Element, so learning them would be easier than, say, moving to a Tacoma (pickups' long wheelbases really limit their capabilities without extreme lifts).

 

[Sam30931_xterra]

I'd look into a 2000-2004 nissan xterra they are a great platform and cost of maintanence is prety low on them on mine I run 31" tires with no lift and I can get in some rough areas with no problem

 

[tjZ06]

One thing would be to start by answering the questions here: If you're going to ask "what vehicle is best..."

...you may want to include:

• What is Overlanding/Off Roading to YOU? Do you prefer to stick to groomed forest service roads? Do you want to be able to Overland famous trails like the Rubicon Trail? Do you live somewhere with deep mud, even on "well groomed" trails? Do you often encounter snow? In general, what will the roads/trails you plan to use consist of?
• Will your Overlander also be your daily driver? If so, what is your daily drive like? Do you have a long freeway commute? Or perhaps you have a short, in-town commute that can still take a long time because of traffic. Maybe you have work/family obligations that mean you often need to take long non-Overlanding road trips where MPG and comfort are a must. Or maybe you won't DD your Overlander at all and you're thus more willing to sacrifice comfort, MPG, etc.
• Who, and what go with you on Overland trips (or on non-Overland trips if your vehicle must be multi-purpose)? Are you a solo cholo most of the time, or are you a family of 7 with 4 dogs, 3 cats and a parakeet that comes along? The answer to this question will greatly limit the scope of your vehicle search, at least if you're in the latter group.
• Do you want to sleep IN, ON, or NEAR your vehicle? Obviously the answer to the previous question is closely tied to this one. If you're a single person that Overlands alone you might be happy sleeping in a small-ish SUV or cross-over. If you're a family of 4 that won't work. If your preference is to sleep IN your vehicle it will really impact the options. If you want to sleep ON your vehicle (RTTs) things are a bit less limited. Even still, a RTT sized to accommodate a family isn't going to fit well on a small cross-over. If you're more into the traditional ground tent route, then perhaps your sleeping choice doesn't limit vehicles as much... but all of that gear can get bulky too.
• What comforts "must" you have with you? Are you currently a backpacker that can pack 2 weeks of food and gear into 1 cubic foot? Or are you coming out of a 45 foot diesel pusher and want as many of those amenities as possible? In many ways what you are looking to get for comfort will give a direction for Overlanding. Be it minimalism in a smaller rig, or perhaps something more like #vanlife, an expedition trailer, or a Four Wheel Camper to have more of "home" out on the trail. There is nothing wrong with either approach, but they do point to different vehicles.
• Are you mechanically inclined, and/or interested in a "project" or a vehicle that requires more maintenance? There are a lot of great, really neat Overlanders out there that I'd love to have... but I'd never recommend to someone who doesn't want to repair and maintain a finicky vehicle (like, perhaps, my beloved WJs). The answer to the next question can also dictate how "hands off" your ownership and Overlanding experience can be, but even with unlimited funds there is a broad spectrum of dependability out there.
• And finally, as disclosed by the last bullet I'll end my questions with the big one: what is your budget!?! The world is coin-operated, and unfortunately this question plays the biggest part in selecting the "right" vehicle for the majority of folks getting into Overlanding. It doesn't matter if you're looking at $5k or $500k, your budget will dictate a lot. Be realistic, particularly if looking at the lower end of the spectrum, pad used vehicle prices by 20% as a (very rough) rule-of-thumb to get them up to snuff. That is to say, you can expect a $10k used Overlander to need $2k of general repair and maintenance no matter how solid it might seem out first. Like any rule-of-thumb there are going to be cases where that guess is completely inaccurate, unfortunately that will generally mean the vehicle needs more money than expected as opposed to less.

These will give us an idea how you'll use your vehicle and what your priorities should be. All of that said, I would suggest almost certainly switching from the Element will save you $ and trouble in the long-term. Can a person Overland with an Element? Absolutely. But eventually an Element is going to limit you from the trips you are able to take, and it'll make lots of trips that'd be relaxed in a proper 4x4 (or even a slightly more off road oriented CUV or Subi w/ good AWD) more stressful. In the end you'll regret the $ you sink into the Element and you'll be left wishing you had gotten something more suited to the job. Of course, that's just my $0.02. You mentioned not being able to go WFH, but you didn't mention how long and what your commute is like. Of course, if you're considering 'tacos and 'runners it doesn't seem like excellent MPG is a big consideration for you.

I'd look into a 2000-2004 nissan xterra they are a great platform and cost of maintanence is prety low on them on mine I run 31" tires with no lift and I can get in some rough areas with no problem

Exactly. Look, I love 4Runners and Tacomas too. I had a 1st Gen SR5 'runner that I really, really wish I had kept. But the Toyota-tax is a real thing. The OP $14.5k for ~200k mi '05 Toyotas. I just bought my '12 Xterra Pro-4X (as loaded as an Xterra gets, obv they're not "luxury" machines but this one has all the factory options) for $12.5k with ~140k miles. So, 7 years newer and ~60k less miles at $2k cheaper than the Toyotas the OP was looking at. Personally I like the 2nd Gen Xterra over 1st for the power (~170 HP in the 1st Gen vs. ~265 HP in the 2nd Gen), 4 wheel discs (vs. rear drums in the 1st), 5spd instead of 4spd auto (or 6spd vs. 5spd manual) etc. but there's something to be said for the 1st Gen still being a manually shifted T-case. IMHO the Xterra is essentially the "budget 4Runner" is so often overlooked.

-TJ

 

[Sam30931_xterra]

One thing would be to start by answering the questions here: If you're going to ask "what vehicle is best..."

...you may want to include:

• What is Overlanding/Off Roading to YOU? Do you prefer to stick to groomed forest service roads? Do you want to be able to Overland famous trails like the Rubicon Trail? Do you live somewhere with deep mud, even on "well groomed" trails? Do you often encounter snow? In general, what will the roads/trails you plan to use consist of?
• Will your Overlander also be your daily driver? If so, what is your daily drive like? Do you have a long freeway commute? Or perhaps you have a short, in-town commute that can still take a long time because of traffic. Maybe you have work/family obligations that mean you often need to take long non-Overlanding road trips where MPG and comfort are a must. Or maybe you won't DD your Overlander at all and you're thus more willing to sacrifice comfort, MPG, etc.
• Who, and what go with you on Overland trips (or on non-Overland trips if your vehicle must be multi-purpose)? Are you a solo cholo most of the time, or are you a family of 7 with 4 dogs, 3 cats and a parakeet that comes along? The answer to this question will greatly limit the scope of your vehicle search, at least if you're in the latter group.
• Do you want to sleep IN, ON, or NEAR your vehicle? Obviously the answer to the previous question is closely tied to this one. If you're a single person that Overlands alone you might be happy sleeping in a small-ish SUV or cross-over. If you're a family of 4 that won't work. If your preference is to sleep IN your vehicle it will really impact the options. If you want to sleep ON your vehicle (RTTs) things are a bit less limited. Even still, a RTT sized to accommodate a family isn't going to fit well on a small cross-over. If you're more into the traditional ground tent route, then perhaps your sleeping choice doesn't limit vehicles as much... but all of that gear can get bulky too.
• What comforts "must" you have with you? Are you currently a backpacker that can pack 2 weeks of food and gear into 1 cubic foot? Or are you coming out of a 45 foot diesel pusher and want as many of those amenities as possible? In many ways what you are looking to get for comfort will give a direction for Overlanding. Be it minimalism in a smaller rig, or perhaps something more like #vanlife, an expedition trailer, or a Four Wheel Camper to have more of "home" out on the trail. There is nothing wrong with either approach, but they do point to different vehicles.
• Are you mechanically inclined, and/or interested in a "project" or a vehicle that requires more maintenance? There are a lot of great, really neat Overlanders out there that I'd love to have... but I'd never recommend to someone who doesn't want to repair and maintain a finicky vehicle (like, perhaps, my beloved WJs). The answer to the next question can also dictate how "hands off" your ownership and Overlanding experience can be, but even with unlimited funds there is a broad spectrum of dependability out there.
• And finally, as disclosed by the last bullet I'll end my questions with the big one: what is your budget!?! The world is coin-operated, and unfortunately this question plays the biggest part in selecting the "right" vehicle for the majority of folks getting into Overlanding. It doesn't matter if you're looking at $5k or $500k, your budget will dictate a lot. Be realistic, particularly if looking at the lower end of the spectrum, pad used vehicle prices by 20% as a (very rough) rule-of-thumb to get them up to snuff. That is to say, you can expect a $10k used Overlander to need $2k of general repair and maintenance no matter how solid it might seem out first. Like any rule-of-thumb there are going to be cases where that guess is completely inaccurate, unfortunately that will generally mean the vehicle needs more money than expected as opposed to less.

These will give us an idea how you'll use your vehicle and what your priorities should be. All of that said, I would suggest almost certainly switching from the Element will save you $ and trouble in the long-term. Can a person Overland with an Element? Absolutely. But eventually an Element is going to limit you from the trips you are able to take, and it'll make lots of trips that'd be relaxed in a proper 4x4 (or even a slightly more off road oriented CUV or Subi w/ good AWD) more stressful. In the end you'll regret the $ you sink into the Element and you'll be left wishing you had gotten something more suited to the job. Of course, that's just my $0.02. You mentioned not being able to go WFH, but you didn't mention how long and what your commute is like. Of course, if you're considering 'tacos and 'runners it doesn't seem like excellent MPG is a big consideration for you.

I'd look into a 2000-2004 nissan xterra they are a great platform and cost of maintanence is prety low on them on mine I run 31" tires with no lift and I can get in some rough areas with no problem

Exactly. Look, I love 4Runners and Tacomas too. I had a 1st Gen SR5 'runner that I really, really wish I had kept. But the Toyota-tax is a real thing. The OP $14.5k for ~200k mi '05 Toyotas. I just bought my '12 Xterra Pro-4X (as loaded as an Xterra gets, obv they're not "luxury" machines but this one has all the factory options) for $12.5k with ~140k miles. So, 7 years newer and ~60k less miles at $2k cheaper than the Toyotas the OP was looking at. Personally I like the 2nd Gen Xterra over 1st for the power (~170 HP in the 1st Gen vs. ~265 HP in the 2nd Gen), 4 wheel discs (vs. rear drums in the 1st), 5spd instead of 4spd auto (or 6spd vs. 5spd manual) etc. but there's something to be said for the 1st Gen still being a manually shifted T-case. IMHO the Xterra is essentially the "budget 4Runner" is so often overlooked.

-TJ

Yea and they make just as good a platform for offroad use as a 4runner

 

[tjZ06]

Yea and they make just as good a platform for offroad use as a 4runner

Yup. Very similar overall to a 5th Gen 'runner (4.0L V6 and a 5spd auto, body-on-frame construction, IFS/solid rear axle, rear locker available in the right trim, etc.). They have less aftermarket support, but there's still plenty out there for them.

-TJ

 

[MOAK]

I had an old boss teach me that you always get something, anything, bigger and more capable than what you think you need.

Another bit of unsolicited advice, as I know more than a few people will disagree, body on frame vehicles can take the beating. Unibody? Not so much. It will reach a point where you won’t be able to keep it aligned. Even Forest roads will beat hell out of a Unibody after a few years. In short? Quit messing around and get the 4Runner.

 

[sabjku]

Some good advice already posted here. Really comes down to how capable of a vehicle you really need, based on the terrain you plan to visit. I built my Wrangler to basically allow me to get up and through any terrain, and to be the perfect rig for extended travel(for me). I also have a Honda Element, bought it new in 2003. I can't imagine getting rid of my Element, love that thing! And I'll be honest with you, 90% of the miles I've logged on my Jeep could have been done in the Element(mostly dirt and gravel roads, forest roads, mild 4wd). But that other 10% has been the most fun, and I would have hated to be in a vehicle that wasn't capable of doing them. I guess my point would be to have slightly more vehicle than you think you'll need.

 

[Sam30931_xterra]

Some good advice already posted here. Really comes down to how capable of a vehicle you really need, based on the terrain you plan to visit. I built my Wrangler to basically allow me to get up and through any terrain, and to be the perfect rig for extended travel(for me). I also have a Honda Element, bought it new in 2003. I can't imagine getting rid of my Element, love that thing! And I'll be honest with you, 90% of the miles I've logged on my Jeep could have been done in the Element(mostly dirt and gravel roads, forest roads, mild 4wd). But that other 10% has been the most fun, and I would have hated to be in a vehicle that wasn't capable of doing them. I guess my point would be to have slightly more vehicle than you think you'll need.

Yea great advice best to have a bit more rig than you think ypu need

 

[CafeRoaster]

Thank you all. I edited my original post for more clarity (hopefully).

I’ll be honest - I haven’t considered Nissan or Jeep or Land Rover, as I haven’t heard many great things about their reliability, and I don’t know the manufacturers as well as I do Honda and Toyota.

 

[tjZ06]

Thank you all. I edited my original post for more clarity (hopefully).

I’ll be honest - I haven’t considered Nissan or Jeep or Land Rover, as I haven’t heard many great things about their reliability, and I don’t know the manufacturers as well as I do Honda and Toyota.

Overall I think Nissan is on-par w/ Toyota. Each have their exceptions, for example, the only vehicle I've owned that got Lemon Lawed was a Toyota product ('06 Lexus IS250). But overall Nissan is pretty typical Japanese auto-maker reliability. And there are exceptions to the rules the other way too: I had a '06 Land Rover Ranger Rover Sport Supercharged that I bought used (with like 80k+ miles on it IIRC - cuz I'm a smart guy ;) ) that was flawless for me for many years (and I wheeled/camped with it on a set of 19" non-Supercharged wheels and Goodyear MT/Rs, lol). I also have pretty extensive experience with Jeep (I've had 2 WJs, obv still have 1, and I've had 3 WK2s). I would say Toyota and Nissan are roughly equivalent for reliability, Jeep and Land Rover fall far behind both Toyota and Nissan *in general* but the truth is maintenance and how a vehicle has been treated has almost as much, if not more to do with reliability than make. You just need to research and look out for known issues with very specific combos (such as the carbon buildup issue on the direct-injected IS250 I had, or the valve seat issue in Chrysler 4.7 V8s).

-TJ

 

[DintDobbs]

CafeRoaster, go with what you know. If you do your research, you can generally isolate the more reliable models even from "less reliable" manufacturers overall.

Some manufacturers have humongous aftermarket support communities, and Toyota and Jeep are primary examples; however, the cost of maintenance on both will be high.

If you're set on replacing the Element due to a short daily commute, this gives you a larger budget to work with as well.

The 4Runner is probably a safe pick. Good all-arounder with lots of space, but not too big for most trails and forest roads. There's a reason that it's a fan favorite in the current generation.

 

[CafeRoaster]

Thanks, everyone.

@DintDobbs - I do indeed enjoy how easy my Element is to park, due to its wheelbase.

@tjZ06 - That's good to know. I've always liked the Xterra, but I don't know much about features to look for. I do see there are fairly decent deals on them locally, though.

 

[Sam30931_xterra]

Thanks, everyone.

@DintDobbs - I do indeed enjoy how easy my Element is to park, due to its wheelbase.

@tjZ06 - That's good to know. I've always liked the Xterra, but I don't know much about features to look for. I do see there are fairly decent deals on them locally, though.

2nd gen xterra have more features but the 1st gen tend to be cheaper

 

[CafeRoaster]

2nd gen xterra have more features but the 1st gen tend to be cheaper

I'm eyeballing a few, including:
$7,000 - X trim - 2012, 134k, dealership
$8,000 - X trim - 2008, 154k, dealership
$8,000 - Off-Road trim - 2006, 164k, small dent in side, well maintained (records), private party

Interestingly, the 2008 and 2012 are at the same dealership.

I'm having difficulty finding information about each trim line. I did find an old Car and Driver article that says the Off-Road trim is the only one with Hill Descent and Hill Start assists. What draws me to Toyotas is the A-TRAC system, which I don't think Nissan has anything comparable, or at least not that I'm finding in vehicles under $20,000. I don't know which trim lines have locking diffs, or if any of them (other than the Off-Road trim) have different features that would be better for off-road capability.

Again, I won't be rock crawling, but I do want to find something a) reliable, and b) capable of ensuring I won't get stuck on solo trips when driving slowly and cautiously.

 

[DintDobbs]

@CafeRoaster According to a few quick web searches, none of the XTerras you've listed would come with a differential locker. Nevertheless, if you can get one with a limited-slip differential, that would be better than an open differential - but if you can only find an open differential, then adding a locker would be easier than adding one to a limited-slip.

Browse around some Nissan forums and see what other folks are doing to install lockers; perhaps a local junk yard might have an XTerra with a lockable rear axle that you could rig up. But if you go that route, prepare to wire a switch and MAKE SURE that the axle gears are the same as yours.

The prices are certainly looking good, on all of those...

 

[CafeRoaster]

And just stumbled upon a 2011 Pro-4X with 170k miles for $11,400.

Alright, y'all got me reconsidering. It's quite possible to get a rig that's more capable than my Element for less than I could sell my Element for (the Xterra), or I go with Toyota's known reliability (albeit inflated Toyota tax).

Well, I start checking some out in person tomorrow. Looking at a TT FJ tomorrow. $12,000 and has a parasitic draw (doesn't necessarily scare me), and probably the Xterras that I've mentioned, since they're fairly close to me.

 

[DintDobbs]

That Pro-4X would be very tempting, to me... Comes with hill descent and a locker, and hill ascent IIRC. Mileage isn't even bad, for 11 years old (just over 15k/year).

$12k seems fairly reasonable considering to day's market, and how well equipped the vehicle is; but as a word of caution, do make sure everything WORKS before you buy any vehicle... As you've mentioned earlier, off-roaders can have sketchy service histories.

 

[CafeRoaster]

That Pro-4X would be very tempting, to me... Comes with hill descent and a locker, and hill ascent IIRC. Mileage isn't even bad, for 11 years old (just over 15k/year).

$12k seems fairly reasonable considering to day's market, and how well equipped the vehicle is; but as a word of caution, do make sure everything WORKS before you buy any vehicle... As you've mentioned earlier, off-roaders can have sketchy service histories.

Lockers might be difficult to check. Tips?

I actually can’t find anything about how to test A-TRAC either, except by lifting the vehicle in a shop haha

 

[tjZ06]

Lockers might be difficult to check. Tips?

I actually can’t find anything about how to test A-TRAC either, except by lifting the vehicle in a shop haha

I'd go with a Pro-4X for the rear locker, though it might have been on the "Off Road" too but I'm not a "Nissan guy" to be honest, so I'm sure somebody can clarify. As for checking function, first just see if it engages. You need to be in 4LO, then you can hit the switch and see if the light on the dash goes from blinking to solid. NOTE: it will take awhile. Mine is pretty slow and I've found I have to roll back and forth sometimes to get it to go. I've heard the less its used the longer it can take, and the same is true for coming out of 4LO or even 4HI. Now, as for checking to see if it's TRULY engaged, vs. just the light saying it is, a tight turn on pavement will quickly tell you if it starts to bark the inside rear tire... that said it's really not good for the entire drivetrain to do so it's kind of a toss-up on if it's worth doing once to know the locker works or not. As soon as you get one chirp you'll know you're locked in. Do a tight turn in 4LO but without the locker on first for comparison - and all of this should be done as SLOWLY as possible - in general you don't want to use 4 at all on pavement, and you especially don't want to turn tightly if you do.

-TJ