Censorship in the time of mistrust

[USStrongman]

This is a real sore spot for me.

I randomly looked at a few recent threads in different forums and as I went to reply, found they had been locked. Don't we have enough issues with social media not allowing the freedom of expression, whether you agree with what is being said or not? We are all ADULTS here. Men are allowed to disagree. How do you think so many historical conflicts in life have been resolved in the face of disagreement? Men were allowed to sort through the issues until finally either there was resolve or someone in a position to do so, provided levity. Closure is not levity.

How about our moderators help find a way through civil discourse, for people to see tolerance instead of raising the bar of frustration by shutting them down? I'm not exactly a ray of sunshine, but I am and have always been a person willing to hear the other side... whether it is something I agree with or have the intellectual capacity to understand someone's given ideology.

Please stop locking threads. Thank you.

 

[ptgarcia]

I'm with you in principle; however, this is a privately owned forum the owner(s) can run any way he/she/they feel is right. I will never side with censorship, but as one who believes wholeheartedly in personal property rights I will accept the way this forum operates or remove myself from it, like I did from big social media.

 

[M Rose]

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[M Rose]

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The goal of Overland Bound is to make vehicle dependent adventure and exploration in the great outdoors as accessible and safe as possible. All levels of experience are welcome. These are the principles Overland Bound was founded on. We ask each member of Overland Bound to review and be in agreement.

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Adventure is Necessary. The point of the Overland Bound community is to include folks of various backgrounds, skill levels, and stages in their vehicle build outs and lifestyle. Smelling like caribou, trekking across the Sahara for months at a time, or having a completely built out rig with all the features are not prerequisites to join.
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We are not a Jeep community, a Toyota community, or a Land Rover community. Your vehicle has to be capable and safe for what you ask it to do and where you want to go. The sharing of resources to help you accomplish this is the point of the Overland Bound community.
A connection with nature is paramount
We believe a connection with the great outdoors is a key to living. It gives us perspective, keeps us grounded, and feeds the explorer and wonderer deep in our DNA. Ignore this, and things get messy.
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[Berkshires]

Except for the "Off Topic" forum (which I ignore) I have found over the last year or so, too many threads in Overland General Discussion have nothing to do with Overlanding - I would rather have threads moved to Off Topic then locked, makes it easier to ignore pointless arguments. There are plenty of places - Reddit, FB, Parlor, and a host of other sites - to go to debate non-overlanding issues.

Not sure why, but Overland Bound seems to have this problem more than other similar sites. Too often I see things get political when there is no reason for it - keep it apolitical and on-topic would be my recommendation to the moderators and quickly move threads to Off Topic when they have nothing to do with overlanding - I hate to give more work to the already over-worked moderators.

 

[MidOH]

What isn't political?

Can I go overlanding in the state of New York? No. It's political.
Can I go overlanding in New Jersey? Nope. Why?........It's political.
Can I pump gas or order any kind of overlanding, camping, or scuba diving gear from Oregon right now? No. Why?......It's political.

Can I go overlanding in Michigan? Heck yes. Why am I welcomed there?............It's political.

I don't expect the average overlander to understand. Ya'll can't hardly share a a few coordinates to newbs.

 

[Shokgoblr]

This is a private website. If they want to lock threads, they can lock threads.

You know ?

 

[DRAX]

Except for the "Off Topic" forum (which I ignore) I have found over the last year or so, too many threads in Overland General Discussion have nothing to do with Overlanding - I would rather have threads moved to Off Topic then locked, makes it easier to ignore pointless arguments. There are plenty of places - Reddit, FB, Parlor, and a host of other sites - to go to debate non-overlanding issues.

Not sure why, but Overland Bound seems to have this problem more than other similar sites. Too often I see things get political when there is no reason for it - keep it apolitical and on-topic would be my recommendation to the moderators and quickly move threads to Off Topic when they have nothing to do with overlanding - I hate to give more work to the already over-worked moderators.

Kind of like this very thread which has no place in the general overlanding discussion section. It belongs in the off-topic section.

On the topic of censorship and whatnot, people agree to the rules when they sign up. If something they post goes against the rules then they have no place to complain when the post is deleted or the thread is locked. If the subject isn't called out in the rules and the discussion is civil (no name-calling, personal attacks, etc) and it's in the appropriate section then I say let it ride. Anyone that shows intolerance for a differing opinion and starts attacking others should have the appropriate action taken against them/their account/their post. Tolerating intolerance will only lead to the intolerant taking over.

As for censorship and freedom of speech, that only applies to the govt. There is no freedom of speech on private platforms, just like there's no freedom of speech when you go to someone else's house. If you say something they don't like then they have every right to tell you to GTFO. Same applies to forums and social media in general. In addition, even if you were able to say whatever you want that doesn't mean you'd be free from consequences. Freedom of speech isn't a license to say whatever you want with impunity. Words have consequences.

OB forums have been pretty mellow compared to other places I've been and I'm not calling anyone out and saying the above is or should be applied to anyone in particular, I've just been getting the feeling recently that a lot of folks don't understand how civil rights like freedom of speech work.

Now, can this get moved to the off-topic section? :D

 

[Peregrine]

My 3 cents is I am not on here for political, nor do I want to see, political discussions. There are an unlimited number of sites pandering to political discussions . Some of which I am a member of and partake in presenting differing views.

On here I am looking for a break from the "he said, she said" treadmill. I am looking for friends and knowledge surrounding overlanding PERIOD.

When ever I join a site it is placed in a 3 month "is this of value" both in time required and what is provided review. Which is why I am not an official member (yet).

But that is me. Your mileage may vary.

 

[LostWoods]

I don't expect the average overlander to understand. Ya'll can't hardly share a a few coordinates to newbs.

This is no different than any other off-road group and it's only grown worse in the age of social media.... Loose lips sink ships.

Publicly posting coordinates results in areas being overrun, damaged, and closed to the public. It's a problem that's as old as off-roading has been a hobby.

 

[MazeVX]

Okay...
In general and/or under normal circumstances I don't see much need for political discussions besides land use or vehicle modification restrictions and travel safety.
But at the moment we are far away from anything "normal" or "general" we are experiencing very difficult times with curfews, travel restrictions, business closings and other things that may or may not effect all or some of us.

All this has a massive effect on overlanding, it has a massive effect on the personal lifes of many OB members in many different ways and as such is a thing that will be discussed again and again. Simply because so many things are effected, may it be parts that don't arrive in time, borders you're not able to cross or a closed campsite or closed business.

If we like it or not, it's here and it is a factor that needs to be respected and that puts another line onto our travel checklist.

For the sake of whatever means something to someone... Politics are part of overlanding and that won't change anytime soon.

 

[DRAX]

For the sake of whatever means something to someone... Politics are part of overlanding and that won't change anytime soon.

There's a HUGE difference between politics directly related to overlanding and someone bringing up politics or venting about the political landscape that is totally unrelated to overlanding. Saying that politics are part of overlanding isn't patently false, but it also shouldn't be an excuse that opens the door to any and all political discussions taking place here (unless it's in the off-topic section and stays civil). Land use is obviously a big political topic that is directly related to overlanding. Discussions related to the election or other random, unrelated topics have no place here and just create tension and drama where people are trying to get AWAY from that BS.

I actually stopped going to various forums and left Facebook groups because so many people turn them into their personal dumping grounds for political or other unrelated topics and it ruined them. Mods/admins disappeared into the shadows which didn't help either. So, if people are going to insist that politics are part of overlanding and I find threads like these polluting the actual overlanding sections of the forum instead of staying in the off-topic section then I'll be gone from here as well. Not that many/most of you personally care if that happened, just consider that there are likely others like me that won't say something and will just leave.

 

[MazeVX]

There's a HUGE difference between politics directly related to overlanding and someone bringing up politics or venting about the political landscape that is totally unrelated to overlanding. Saying that politics are part of overlanding isn't patently false, but it also shouldn't be an excuse that opens the door to any and all political discussions taking place here (unless it's in the off-topic section and stays civil). Land use is obviously a big political topic that is directly related to overlanding. Discussions related to the election or other random, unrelated topics have no place here and just create tension and drama where people are trying to get AWAY from that BS.

I actually stopped going to various forums and left Facebook groups because so many people turn them into their personal dumping grounds for political or other unrelated topics and it ruined them. Mods/admins disappeared into the shadows which didn't help either. So, if people are going to insist that politics are part of overlanding and I find threads like these polluting the actual overlanding sections of the forum instead of staying in the off-topic section then I'll be gone from here as well. Not that many/most of you personally care if that happened, just consider that there are likely others like me that won't say something and will just leave.

Sure, I didn't mention that it is still not a place for general politics, I thought it was obvious.
What I tried to say was that nowadays politics has a much bigger part in overlanding than it should have and is a topic that will take place with or without our agreement.

English is still a foreign language to me and I apologize for my unclear words.

 

[Billiebob]

Don't we have enough issues with social media not allowing the freedom of expression, whether you agree with what is being said or not?

we definitely have plenty of issues, this is an overlanding forum, not a political debate forum nor a school board meeting. I think the "terms of agreement" state that too.

stay focused on the theme and find other forums which cater o those topics.

Form the terms and conditions you agreed to....


Why all the rules? I’m entitled to my opinions.
You’re free to say whatever you like and act however you like other places, but we ask that while in our network, the conversation stays focused on overlanding.

 

[Shakes355]

I kinda wish, as a society, we would come to realize that chat threads, forums, blogs and comment sections are not conducive to substantive discussions on most topics. Text has a way of augmenting language and allowing for unnecessary (see: incorrect) interpretation into things like motive, sarcasm, and emotions. Technical topics and advice tend to be the outliers to the rule, hence why OB functions beautifully for its intended purpose.

I am acutely aware at how difficult it can be to expand friend groups and community in one's personal life. OB is a very easy community to feel welcomed into so I have sympathy when folks feel compelled to have real and substantive conversations here regarding everyday topics that are close to them. I fight the urge daily and have been on the wrong side of this position many times.

But there are better ways to have these discussions and most of them are in-person. The more divisive a topic, the higher the need to address nuance.

I personally applaud the moderators for at least showing good faith in the community by not overworking the Lock Button. There have been threads brought back on topic with little intervention and I see that as the goal. Personal restraint is the best tool we have, though.

 

[Billiebob]

There's a HUGE difference between politics directly related to overlanding and someone bringing up politics or venting about the political landscape that is totally unrelated to overlanding. Saying that politics are part of overlanding isn't patently false, but it also shouldn't be an excuse that opens the door to any and all political discussions taking place here (unless it's in the off-topic section and stays civil). Land use is obviously a big political topic that is directly related to overlanding. Discussions related to the election or other random, unrelated topics have no place here and just create tension and drama where people are trying to get AWAY from that BS.

I actually stopped going to various forums and left Facebook groups because so many people turn them into their personal dumping grounds for political or other unrelated topics and it ruined them. Mods/admins disappeared into the shadows which didn't help either. So, if people are going to insist that politics are part of overlanding and I find threads like these polluting the actual overlanding sections of the forum instead of staying in the off-topic section then I'll be gone from here as well. Not that many/most of you personally care if that happened, just consider that there are likely others like me that won't say something and will just leave.

This hits the spot.

There are plenty of comments on land use, trail closures etc which are welcome here. But the admin have the right to decide when a thread is getting derailad and I for one am glad when they lock it...... even if I have been a participant. Stay on topic and find another forum to vent whatever other topics you are passionate about.

 

[DRAX]

I kinda wish, as a society, we would come to realize that chat threads, forums, blogs and comment sections are not conducive to substantive discussions on most topics. Text has a way of augmenting language and allowing for unnecessary (see: incorrect) interpretation into things like motive, sarcasm, and emotions. Technical topics and advice tend to be the outliers to the rule, hence why OB functions beautifully for its intended purpose.

I am acutely aware at how difficult it can be to expand friend groups and community in one's personal life. OB is a very easy community to feel welcomed into so I have sympathy when folks feel compelled to have real and substantive conversations here regarding everyday topics that are close to them. I fight the urge daily and have been on the wrong side of this position many times.

But there are better ways to have these discussions and most of them are in-person. The more divisive a topic, the higher the need to address nuance.

I personally applaud the moderators for at least showing good faith in the community by not overworking the Lock Button. There have been threads brought back on topic with little intervention and I see that as the goal. Personal restraint is the best tool we have, though.

I'm all for "friendly banter" and I think it can be helpful to ground some discussions that might be getting heated over a difference in opinion even if that discussion is related to overlanding, etc. There's no need to remain formal and technical all the time, but at the same time I totally get that often times nuance is missed which can escalate tensions. Everyone expresses themselves differently and is interpreted by others differently, it takes time for us to figure each other out. In order to avoid being misunderstood or taken the wrong way I do my best to indicate my tone or intention using emoticons since that's the best way to pass along whatever facial expression I may have at the time.

The other thing that I think is very important is that no matter how heated discussions get people shouldn't resort to attacking someone else because they have a different opinion, experience, etc. When the focus becomes an individual instead of the topic that is when someone needs to hit the brakes.

 

[Billiebob]

The other thing that I think is very important is that no matter how heated discussions get people shouldn't resort to attacking someone else because they have a different opinion, experience, etc. When the focus becomes an individual instead of the topic that is when someone needs to hit the brakes.

I say state yer opinion and shut up. On these political or other off topics, just never hit reply. Yer not in a bar altho we might all be inebriated.

 

[USStrongman]

This is intended as a discussion. You know? Where two or more people come together to discuss their views in a polite and respectful way?

In none of the threads mentioned above was there a "flamewar". It was simply two or more people having a difference of opinion. No bashing, no bullyingi, no name calling. If we as a civilized society cant have that as open discussion and have to be moderated by censorship, ie; a differing opinion, then we as a group are doomed.

More importantly, none of the 3 threads were about politics. None. Each one was about outdoors and overlanding... so if we can't have a differing opinion from one another, what's the point of a forum? Education is reached when people communicate to one another in a manner consistent with courtesy and respect so that the material is absorbed in a productive manner. IMO, the threads were closed by someone/someones with overreaching authority without REALLY reading what was going on.

A perfect example of singular education is the Bootcamp threads. You have a physician singularly teaching his experience. My experience differs in a practical application in a few of his threads. What is taught at one medical school or residency or in fellowship, is more than likely taught differently at another. I don't post in the threads, I simply ignore them. We all have the power to ignore. Whether we choose to or not is different.

And while yes this is a privately owned forum, isn't it true that paid members have some small vested interest in the platform as well as the volunteers?

 

[DRAX]

I have no idea what threads you're talking about, @USStrongman, so I have no input as to why they may have been closed down. Still, this thread would be better served in another section, like Community Ideas and Requests perhaps.

If folks have a problem with how mods manage the forums or threads then they are welcome to take it up with the forum staff, airing grievances and lobbing drama bombs publicly about censorship, power-hungry mods, etc isn't really constructive and on many forums that would lead to such a thread simply being deleted as being inflammatory or argumentative. So, may want to tone down the accusations, assumptions and being passive-aggressive or outright aggressive towards the folks that volunteer their time to help run the site.

This thread has remained civil and folks have been sharing their opinions, but so much was missing from the original post that people were left to make assumptions about the back story and it really hasn't had anything to do with overlanding while it was posted in the overlanding section.

Of course, I'm not a mod and can't read minds. I've just been around long enough and been a mod on other forums to know threads like these rarely go how the OP wants and they go south in short order. Folks here on OB seem to be a bit more civil so perhaps that won't happen this time, but generally calling forum staff out in the public forums is bad form. Issues with how threads are handled should be done privately and if the affected users aren't happy with the response then they're welcome suck it up or leave. Why? Because as a small subset of users we don't get to dictate how the forums are managed. If there's a legitimate problem with staff overstepping or misapplying policies then let it be handled by the admins privately.

If nobody reached out to the mods/admins privately about those threads and thought this was the appropriate first step...well...hopefully that will happen instead in the future.