OB Approved Camping with Firearms

[Teephud]

Let's be honest... We've all seen Deliverance one too many times...
I just got back from a 16 day road trip with my son; camping, mountain biking and 'wheeling up throughout the Sierras. It was awesome, but that's another story. I thought long and hard about whether or not to pack my .45. It wasn't bears I was worried about; it was the thought of some toothless redneck out in the middle of nowhere telling my son he had a "purty" mouth. Truth is, you are out there far from help. You probably don't have cell reception, and even if you could get a call off, help is probably more than an hour out.

 

[CDN Offroader]

I guess you can never rule out the human element, but as far as wild animals, a bit of knowledge is far more useful to most people than a gun would be. I grew up in grizzly territory in central BC, and only had a couple close encounters with them. One was a young male grizzly that came to check us out while trout fishing in a secluded river. I had a .410 for shooting grouse, not much help. We slowly and calmly packed up our stuff and left, taking the fish we had with us so he didn't associate us with an easy fish meal.
The second was while moose hunting, while doing a spot and stalk through dense brush, I saw something through some trees about 40 yards away. I used the scope on the 30-06 to verify that it was a grizzly, not a moose, then I saw two pairs of smaller ears walk past the mama bear. I very slowly and carefully backed out of there, making sure to stay downwind. 5 shots vs 3 bears at 40 yards would have been dicey at best.
More recently, we were camping in southern BC, a "low" density bear area. Me and the wife took the 4 wheeler for a spin away from camp. Coming around the track we startled a younger looking bear in the middle of the trail. It ran a ways up the trail, turned and looked at us on it's hind feet, then took off into the pines.
Those are pretty much the 3 most dangerous situations with Grizzs- Young curious bear, Mamma with cubs, and a startled bear, any other time was at a distance, and usually they were running away - I only ever saw cougar tracks, never saw a cat, and I spend a lot of time in the woods.

The best thing you can do when camping is to follow proper camp procedures. Don't keep food in your tent, don't sleep in the clothes you cooked in, store food and garbage well away from camp(preferably in a tree), keep your cooking area away from your camp, etc. That being said, I like to keep my 12 gauge reasonably handy as insurance when deep in bear country. I expect it would do fine for any other situation that I might reasonably expect to find myself requiring a firearm.

 

[Mademan925]

I camp in the middle of no where a lot. Sometimes I bring a gun and sometimes I don't. I do worry about bears because we see a lot of them. If the come into camp at night and they wake me up my plan is to setoff my car alarm. I keep my keys next to me when I sleep. That should scare them off. If not they are welcome to try to open up the food bins. I may fire a round in the air if I have a gun and the car alarm doesn't work. But I will not shoot at a bear unless Im in a life and death situation.

 

[Steve]

. I may fire a round in the air if I have a gun and the car alarm doesn't work.

For the safety of anyone within a couple mile radius, firing into the ground is a much better choice. ;)

 

[Mademan925]

There usually isn't anyone within a couple mile radius. But I'll keep that in mind. Hope it never comes to that.

 

[MOAK]

I've done quite a bit of research about how to best protect myself from a bear attack. The jury is in, and raw statistics don't lie. They cannot, they are only statistics. The bears sense of smell is 2,100 times better than a human, so we have decided to stop em where it hurts then the most, their nose. No one has ever died from a bear attack when using spray. The same cannot be said when using a fire arm.. Here is a good read on the subject.. http://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bullets.pdf

 

[Winterpeg]

My current plan B.

 

[sharkfishingking]

I love this "sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world"
Just a note for wild animal protection. First, If you see them guaranteed they saw you first, and should not be any issue at distance just keep your eye on them. Second, If in your immediate area such as a campsite a firearm will not help unless you have been trained and practice extensively in a stressed induced drill type field. Third, best defense for critters large and small is a non lethal pepper or bear spray if in close like a camp or trail.
Just like Paul would say, "Observe and Report"

I've never really liked the idea of pepper spray it may work or your probably just gonna piss it off.

An AR-10 is my favorite bear spray works fantastic.

 

[Winterpeg]

I have a few canisters of bear spray and some bear bangers strategically placed for the curious critters... but if a goal-oriented bear is coming at me or my family... OO buck followed by a few rifled 1 oz slugs is where I will place my faith.

 

[MOAK]

I've never really liked the idea of pepper spray it may work or your probably just gonna piss it off.

An AR-10 is my favorite bear spray works fantastic.

You are correct. Pepper spray will just make the bear angry, but, pepper spray is not Bear spray. There is a huge difference. Everything that is out there, concerning bear attacks gives the guy with a gun an 80% chance of survival. With bear spray, 100% survival rate. I hope that if you ever encounter a grizzly, you will make the 80%.. For me? I'll take 100%..

 

[Winterpeg]

Pepper spray has a higher scoville unit count than bear spray, making it in fact stronger so that argument is invalid. I believe he was referring to bear spray anyway.

Statistics... you can make them say what you want. It's only based on whatever study group they choose to use. It's like saying 100% of people don't like eating horse meat... but that's only based on a few hundred thousand polled here in North America. I'm sure I could easily find a few cases of people using bear spray and it being ineffective and/or too little too late.

 

[sharkfishingking]

You are correct. Pepper spray will just make the bear angry, but, pepper spray is not Bear spray. There is a huge difference. Everything that is out there, concerning bear attacks gives the guy with a gun an 80% chance of survival. With bear spray, 100% survival rate. I hope that if you ever encounter a grizzly, you will make the 80%.. For me? I'll take 100%..

It's your skill level that makes the difference not the tool spray or gun. And those statistics won't decide the outcome your skills will. So I suggest practicing with which ever you chose. but I know for a fact with bear spray it's coming back and it's not going to be happy seen it happen with my own eyes.
And you know what finally stopped it a gun a marlin 45-70 to be exact. Besides with spray it's able to attack someone else in the future. just like criminals they do it once they'll do it again with the gun it's dinner and a rug no more threat to anybody. People are far more important than any bear. the use of spray is because "it's better for the bear" and everyone can use it but for me I'm taking no chances yogi is going down if he f's with me!!!!! And there are far worse predators in the woods besides bears. it's the two legged ones that worry me the most.

 

[MOAK]

Pepper spray has a higher scoville unit count than bear spray, making it in fact stronger so that argument is invalid. I believe he was referring to bear spray anyway.

Statistics... you can make them say what you want. It's only based on whatever study group they choose to use. It's like saying 100% of people don't like eating horse meat... but that's only based on a few hundred thousand polled here in North America. I'm sure I could easily find a few cases of people using bear spray and it being ineffective and/or too little too late.

Ok. I looked that one up a long time ago, and for your benefit, ( and my own) just now. , Scoville count is higher in human pepper spray, but the CRC rate for bear spray is 2% versus 1.3%, so it depends on which active ingredient you are talking about, and bear spray covers a longer distance and a wider area. Babe Ruth had a lifetime batting average of 342. That is an inarguable statistic. It is what it is, he hit the ball safely 342 times out of 1000 at bats. No specific group was polled to measure wild animal attacks in North America, be it Shark, Snake, Bison, Wild Hogs, Pack dogs, Alligators, Coyotes, or Bear. The statistics do not come from a subjective sampling of citizens, nor as you suggest, a poll.. No, it's not like saying 100% of all people like chicken. There was no, as you put it, "study group". other than the entire North American Continent. The numbers are real, they are studied, they are published. They have no political agenda. From 2000 to 2007 there were only 8 fatalities world wide from shark attacks. That number did not come from a poll. In the 2000s there have been 38 deaths in North America from bear attacks. That's less than 3 per year. How do we know this? Because people are paid big bucks to keep track of this stuff. It is all compiled in a data base, it is not hearsay, nor is it a sampling. It is, a scientific study. If some feel more comfortable using a fire arm, cool, if others are more comfortable with certified spray, cool, I'm just using some very reliable statistics, ( not a polling ) in making my decision. Ah, yea, bears have been known to come back, so it might be wise to leave the area after the encounter.. Have a great day everybody..

 

[Fakawi Tribe]

Wow, I am really impressed how this thread didn't get uncomfortable and if it was leaning that way, posters were quick to apologize. This forum is a breath of fresh air.
With that being said, my two cents... A gun is a tool that should be a discreet one. It is there for your own assurance. and safety. Bringing a shotgun to skeet shoot in the middle of nowhere is a blast. Pick up the shells before you leave.

 

[Lassen]

You are correct. Pepper spray will just make the bear angry, but, pepper spray is not Bear spray. There is a huge difference. Everything that is out there, concerning bear attacks gives the guy with a gun an 80% chance of survival. With bear spray, 100% survival rate. I hope that if you ever encounter a grizzly, you will make the 80%.. For me? I'll take 100%..

Question for you: what is "bear spray?" How does it differ from "pepper spray?" Reason I ask is article you cite above as an authoritative source on use of firearms vs pepper spray states bear spray is pepper spray in big cans.

 

[Lassen]

Kind of a neat discussion. We have covered a lot pertaining to the two-legged predator - no, not big foots! - and bears. One other thing to carry for in back country that we haven't covered is use of snake shot for, well, snakes!

Any input in use of snake shot from anybody?

 

[MOAK]

Question for you: what is "bear spray?" How does it differ from "pepper spray?" Reason I ask is article you cite above as an authoritative source on use of firearms vs pepper spray states bear spray is pepper spray in big cans.

My understanding of it: A bears nose is like 2,000 times more sensitive than ours so there is less of one potent ingredient and a bit more of another. Bear spray's range is twice as far as standard pepper spray, ( in perfect conditions up to 40 feet.) and will lay out in a fog like pattern. And yes, simply put, it is like pepper spray in a bigger can with the same basic ingredients.. I've been on the firing range with some friends and even though inexperienced learned very quickly how to aim and fire away. I was soon getting good head shots of Bin Laden at 50 feet with a 44. One would have to be a world class marksman to hit a charging bears head at 40 feet. Years ago, I almost pulled the trigger, so to speak, and to get all the permits etc and get a good defense piece. Only to find out that each state has its very own laws, and I would be required to get permits for each state I crossed into, let alone the fact that you cannot get a gun into Canada, ( part of my career required me to cross the border 2 to 3 times a week ) just soured me to the entire idea. Even with a federal permit, (which is nearly impossible, even for me, and I've had all the preliminary FBI backround checks), imagine just not being able to make that right hand turn and going to the Canadian Rockies 'cause you happen to have your Glock with you.. Holstering a can of spray is just a whole lot easier, way less expensive, and mathematically safer against bear attacks. Just my opinion, others may disagree, but hey, thats what makes the world an interesting place. What we all can agree on is Overlanding, which is one of the coolest hobbies on the planet.. Jeeze, there I go again being a complete blow hard.. I promise to stop posting on this subject.
Snake bite kits? I've read up on those as well, and nearly every experienced back country person agrees that they are a waste of money... Just cut it out with your red hot knife, and suck, is just as good as money badly spent on snake bite kits.

 

[Winterpeg]

My understanding of it: A bears nose is like 2,000 times more sensitive than ours so there is less of one potent ingredient and a bit more of another. Bear spray's range is twice as far as standard pepper spray, ( in perfect conditions up to 40 feet.) and will lay out in a fog like pattern. And yes, simply put, it is like pepper spray in a bigger can with the same basic ingredients.. I've been on the firing range with some friends and even though inexperienced learned very quickly how to aim and fire away. I was soon getting good head shots of Bin Laden at 50 feet with a 44. One would have to be a world class marksman to hit a charging bears head at 40 feet. Years ago, I almost pulled the trigger, so to speak, and to get all the permits etc and get a good defense piece. Only to find out that each state has its very own laws, and I would be required to get permits for each state I crossed into, let alone the fact that you cannot get a gun into Canada, ( part of my career required me to cross the border 2 to 3 times a week ) just soured me to the entire idea. Even with a federal permit, (which is nearly impossible, even for me, and I've had all the preliminary FBI backround checks), imagine just not being able to make that right hand turn and going to the Canadian Rockies 'cause you happen to have your Glock with you.. Holstering a can of spray is just a whole lot easier, way less expensive, and mathematically safer against bear attacks. Just my opinion, others may disagree, but hey, thats what makes the world an interesting place. What we all can agree on is Overlanding, which is one of the coolest hobbies on the planet.. Jeeze, there I go again being a complete blow hard.. I promise to stop posting on this subject.
Snake bite kits? I've read up on those as well, and nearly every experienced back country person agrees that they are a waste of money... Just cut it out with your red hot knife, and suck, is just as good as money badly spent on snake bite kits.

(sounds like you got this well covered, but just in case... and for other readers...)

re: crossing the border into Canada with spray
Just remember to have the bear spray that is clearly marked for bears. "Pepper spray" or "OC spray" designed for self defence against humans is illegal in Canada. For some reason we can't have defensive weapons up here in Canada.

 

[AlysonH]

There was a post about a month ago by stringtwelve called Snake Bite Treatment on what to do if bitten by a snake and it had a really informative video. Basically said the kits are no good and not to cut and suck since that can cause more damage and makes it almost impossible for a hospital to identity the venom in your system. I'd post the link but I'm mobile. I'd highly recommend watching it.

 

[Lassen]

There was a post about a month ago by stringtwelve called Snake Bite Treatment on what to do if bitten by a snake and it had a really informative video. Basically said the kits are no good and not to cut and suck since that can cause more damage and makes it almost impossible for a hospital to identity the venom in your system. I'd post the link but I'm mobile. I'd highly recommend watching it.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to snake shot cartridges for firearms. Kind of like having shotgun ammunition for a hand gun. Reason I asked is many times I go hiking/fishing in rattlesnake country and I wondered if snake shot is effective should you stumble across a poisonous snake while hiking.

Snake bite kits are an entirely different subject and as you point out, not effective.